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Saying Hello

Started by TeresaBenedicta, May 04, 2011, 04:51:20 AM

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TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: Stevil on May 05, 2011, 07:55:05 AM
A cruise around the Mediteranian is on my todo list. But probably not until the kids are 20 or so, which means I will be about 57-60 which feels too old to do the rigourous exploring that I would like to do.
When our kids are of a decent age we will take them to Asia, China and Malaysia so they can learn a bit out half of their genetic identity. I feel it is very important.

My Wife speaks Mandarin, Cantonese, English, Malay.  I unfortunately only know English with a very little Mandarin. I can say Hello is lots of languages though and even count to ten in quite a few. Would have loved to learn another language, unfortunately time is the most precious resource in life and oppourtunity for language exposure in NZ is very limited.

How about you, any languages?

((Normally I'd consolidate in my responses... but seeing as I'm trying to reach 50, I'm cheating a bit and answering each person separately.))

Send the kids off to relatives!  J/k.  How many kids do you have?

Wow- good for your wife!  I am much like you, I can say a few different phrases in a few different languages, but that's about it.  I took some Spanish back in high school... although not enough to speak it well.  And I took a year of Greek during college.  THAT was a lot of fun.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
Welcome TeresaBenedicta!

Like Stevil said, you seem to be very mature for a 22 year old, though I cringe at the thought of someone your age making a life altering decision such as consecrating yourself as a religious sister. I disagree with Stevil on the authentically human existence, it's just a very different type of life, though thinking as an atheist, not as good as it could be.

And yes, it really is quite the leap from atheism, what caused you to convert? What was it like?

Thanks for the welcome!

Well, the nice thing about such a big decision is that it's not immediate.  Unlike somebody my age getting married, which happens right away, it takes a total of seven years before everything is "official."  So there's a timeline in place to really make sure this is what a person wants to do, of their own free-will.  For example, there's a year to two years of what is called "postulancy" where one partakes in the community life, but is not a member yet.  Both the individual and the community are mutually discerning whether the individual "fits" and is ready.  Then there's a year to two years of what is called the "novitiate" during which the individual receives the religious habit and a new name and begins an intense study of the life.  Mutual discernment continues.  After this, there is the opportunity for "first vows", which are binding only for a year at a time.  A sister makes these vows three (up to five) times, each for a year.  Mutual discernment continues.  ONLY AFTER all of this does an individual make life-long vows.  One can (and many do) discern out of the life prior to final vows.

It's definitely helpful to me to know that there's a lot of discernment that goes on.  That one decision, right now, is final.  I hope it does go all the way, of course.  But there is definitely time to get out if I discover I've made a mistake.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
And yes, it really is quite the leap from atheism, what caused you to convert? What was it like?

Oops, missed this one.

I won't go into the whole 'story' here, as I could see it leading into the deeper sorts of discussions that I think are restricted until after 50 posts. 

But, in general, it was very difficult.  Especially with my family.  I guess probably the same experience many atheists have had with their Christian families, except the opposite.  I was born and raised in, well, probably a more agnostic than atheist household.  But one that was definitely anti-theist.  So it was difficult for my parents and extended family.  It was difficult for me on a number of levels.  But I had discovered truth and I had to follow it.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: Stevil on May 05, 2011, 09:23:01 AM
the essence of what I was saying was that I thought it was dehumanising to deny yourself the ability to love another human, by this, I don't mean sex. I mean the extremely close bond of a husband and wife. We are social creatures and it is only natural to want love and close companionship. I don't know what the benefit would be of making a pledge against such a relationship. What if a wonderful person comes along that you enjoy their company? Surly Christianity can see the value in love.
Anyway, we can't delve into more detail until 50 posts.


Trust me- the religious life is ANYTHING but denying true, authentic, deep love.  Although, I do admit, this is a common misconception.  Hopefully after 50 we can go deeper. 

And I do have to chuckle (in a nice, non-sarcastic way :) ) at your statement, "Surely Christianity can see the value in love."  Absolutely!  Love IS Christianity.  It's what it's all about.  Everything comes back to love.  Now it's just understanding how, for example, religious life could be about love.  Which again, is for after 50.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

The Black Jester

Quote from: TeresaBenedicta on May 05, 2011, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
Welcome TeresaBenedicta!

Like Stevil said, you seem to be very mature for a 22 year old, though I cringe at the thought of someone your age making a life altering decision such as consecrating yourself as a religious sister. I disagree with Stevil on the authentically human existence, it's just a very different type of life, though thinking as an atheist, not as good as it could be.

And yes, it really is quite the leap from atheism, what caused you to convert? What was it like?

Thanks for the welcome!

Well, the nice thing about such a big decision is that it's not immediate.  Unlike somebody my age getting married, which happens right away, it takes a total of seven years before everything is "official."  So there's a timeline in place to really make sure this is what a person wants to do, of their own free-will.  For example, there's a year to two years of what is called "postulancy" where one partakes in the community life, but is not a member yet.  Both the individual and the community are mutually discerning whether the individual "fits" and is ready.  Then there's a year to two years of what is called the "novitiate" during which the individual receives the religious habit and a new name and begins an intense study of the life.  Mutual discernment continues.  After this, there is the opportunity for "first vows", which are binding only for a year at a time.  A sister makes these vows three (up to five) times, each for a year.  Mutual discernment continues.  ONLY AFTER all of this does an individual make life-long vows.  One can (and many do) discern out of the life prior to final vows.

It's definitely helpful to me to know that there's a lot of discernment that goes on.  That one decision, right now, is final.  I hope it does go all the way, of course.  But there is definitely time to get out if I discover I've made a mistake.

The process your describing should be applied to marriage.  With a further process for having children.

I echo that you are quite beyond your years. 

What happens if, against odds, you change your mind after you've been a sister for 20 years?  I was passionately devoted to theater, in much the way of a religious acolyte, for over 15 years.  Now I've given it up entirely as a bad job.  Happens sometimes, you know.
The Black Jester

"Religion is institutionalised superstition, science is institutionalised curiosity." - Tank

"Confederation of the dispossessed,
Fearing neither god nor master." - Killing Joke

http://theblackjester.wordpress.com

TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: The Black Jester on May 05, 2011, 05:42:12 PM
The process your describing should be applied to marriage.  With a further process for having children.

I echo that you are quite beyond your years. 

What happens if, against odds, you change your mind after you've been a sister for 20 years?  I was passionately devoted to theater, in much the way of a religious acolyte, for over 15 years.  Now I've given it up entirely as a bad job.  Happens sometimes, you know.

Hm.  Well, there is nobody holding a gun against your head- you are free to leave at any point in time, even if after 20 years.  There are ways for being dispensed from your vows.  I'd imagine it would be a painful event, just as any long-time marriage ending in divorce is painful.  But yes, you are free to leave at any point in time.  In fact I know of (and work with) a few ex-nuns.  Who are still active and involved in the Church.  Same with former (or layicized) priests.

It's interesting that our society has become very nervous when it comes to making life-long commitments.  I can't tell you the number of times that I've heard, "At least wait until you're 35, live a little, explore everything and then make your decision."  I suppose some of that is to be expected-- our youth are maturing at a slower rate than in ages past.  Heck, I know of some of my classmates from college who are getting married and I think they have no idea what they're getting into. 

On the other hand, there's the fear that commitment means a loss of freedom that invades this thinking.  I suppose I view it a little bit differently.  I think commitment, maturely made, brings greater freedom.  One is free to live their chosen life without the constant tug of the "other" pulling at them.  Try this.  Do this.  Could be better over here.  How do you know if you haven't tried it?  That sort of thing.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

The Black Jester

Quote from: TeresaBenedicta on May 05, 2011, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: The Black Jester on May 05, 2011, 05:42:12 PM
The process your describing should be applied to marriage.  With a further process for having children.

I echo that you are quite beyond your years. 

What happens if, against odds, you change your mind after you've been a sister for 20 years?  I was passionately devoted to theater, in much the way of a religious acolyte, for over 15 years.  Now I've given it up entirely as a bad job.  Happens sometimes, you know.

Hm.  Well, there is nobody holding a gun against your head- you are free to leave at any point in time, even if after 20 years.  There are ways for being dispensed from your vows.  I'd imagine it would be a painful event, just as any long-time marriage ending in divorce is painful.  But yes, you are free to leave at any point in time.  In fact I know of (and work with) a few ex-nuns.  Who are still active and involved in the Church.  Same with former (or layicized) priests.

It's interesting that our society has become very nervous when it comes to making life-long commitments.  I can't tell you the number of times that I've heard, "At least wait until you're 35, live a little, explore everything and then make your decision."  I suppose some of that is to be expected-- our youth are maturing at a slower rate than in ages past.  Heck, I know of some of my classmates from college who are getting married and I think they have no idea what they're getting into. 

On the other hand, there's the fear that commitment means a loss of freedom that invades this thinking.  I suppose I view it a little bit differently.  I think commitment, maturely made, brings greater freedom.  One is free to live their chosen life without the constant tug of the "other" pulling at them.  Try this.  Do this.  Could be better over here.  How do you know if you haven't tried it?  That sort of thing.

Another mature and cogent riposte  :).  And there are philosophical systems that argue that in order to act, there must at least be some basic constraints to define our choices.  I do have some sympathy with this.  I couldn't multi-task with life paths - I can't even mutli-task on my computer.  When I was acting, I often had life demands, self-imposed, that conflicted and just destroyed my focus and my ability to pursue what was ostensibly my life purpose.  To pursue professional acting requires singular focus and dedication, otherwise you have no chance.  Relationships even get in the way: they have conflicting demands (stability, family, money).  So I have some understanding of what you say.
The Black Jester

"Religion is institutionalised superstition, science is institutionalised curiosity." - Tank

"Confederation of the dispossessed,
Fearing neither god nor master." - Killing Joke

http://theblackjester.wordpress.com

TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: The Black Jester on May 05, 2011, 06:34:46 PM
Another mature and cogent riposte  :).  And there are philosophical systems that argue that in order to act, there must at least be some basic constraints to define our choices.  I do have some sympathy with this.  I couldn't multi-task with life paths - I can't even mutli-task on my computer.  When I was acting, I often had life demands, self-imposed, that conflicted and just destroyed my focus and my ability to pursue what was ostensibly my life purpose.  To pursue professional acting requires singular focus and dedication, otherwise you have no chance.  Relationships even get in the way: they have conflicting demands (stability, family, money).  So I have some understanding of what you say.

That makes sense.  There are certain paths/ways/states of life that require a more... focused approach.  (This is part of the reason the Church maintains the discipline of celibacy in the priesthood- having a family, plus trying to do priestly duties... it can cause exactly the friction you speak of.)  The difficulty comes when, after we've made a decision that also eliminates other options, we desire those options.  When that happens, it's vital to have prudence.  Changing career paths may very well be a prudent decision (sounds like it was for you!).  On the other hand, when you marry a particular person, it eliminates your ability to be with another individual.  What is the prudent thing when the other individual comes along?  In all of these things you have to determine whether your initial commitment is worth more to you than the opportunity in front of you now.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: TeresaBenedicta on May 05, 2011, 05:02:33 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
Welcome TeresaBenedicta!

Like Stevil said, you seem to be very mature for a 22 year old, though I cringe at the thought of someone your age making a life altering decision such as consecrating yourself as a religious sister. I disagree with Stevil on the authentically human existence, it's just a very different type of life, though thinking as an atheist, not as good as it could be.

And yes, it really is quite the leap from atheism, what caused you to convert? What was it like?

Thanks for the welcome!

Well, the nice thing about such a big decision is that it's not immediate.  Unlike somebody my age getting married, which happens right away, it takes a total of seven years before everything is "official."  So there's a timeline in place to really make sure this is what a person wants to do, of their own free-will.  For example, there's a year to two years of what is called "postulancy" where one partakes in the community life, but is not a member yet.  Both the individual and the community are mutually discerning whether the individual "fits" and is ready.  Then there's a year to two years of what is called the "novitiate" during which the individual receives the religious habit and a new name and begins an intense study of the life.  Mutual discernment continues.  After this, there is the opportunity for "first vows", which are binding only for a year at a time.  A sister makes these vows three (up to five) times, each for a year.  Mutual discernment continues.  ONLY AFTER all of this does an individual make life-long vows.  One can (and many do) discern out of the life prior to final vows.

It's definitely helpful to me to know that there's a lot of discernment that goes on.  That one decision, right now, is final.  I hope it does go all the way, of course.  But there is definitely time to get out if I discover I've made a mistake.

I see. Well, not as bad I guess. I had the outdated idea that it was immediate and forced upon people who might not want to live that kind of life or express their feelings of love towards their gods in different ways.

I'm curious about: how do you reconcile "Christianity is the religion of love" with the god of the bible?  One more question for when you reach 50 posts :)

I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


MariaFaustina212

Hi! Like TeresaBenedicta, I'm also a Catholic who caught wind of this site, so I suppose I can answer some questions too. What did you mean specifically about the "God of the bible"? I only ask this because there are many different viewpoints and angles that he can be looked at from the scriptures, and I don't want to assume which one you're talking about. That could get confusing if you and I were thinking of separate things, eh?
"Hear the other side." -St. Augustine
"If we did not have rational souls, we would not be able to believe." -St. Augustine

TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2011, 09:18:18 PM
I see. Well, not as bad I guess. I had the outdated idea that it was immediate and forced upon people who might not want to live that kind of life or express their feelings of love towards their gods in different ways.

I'm curious about: how do you reconcile "Christianity is the religion of love" with the god of the bible?  One more question for when you reach 50 posts :)

Nah, it's anything but forced.

I can see where you're going with your question.  ;)  We'll get to it in due time (fifty posts is taking some time!).  I will say that two considerations will go into what you're asking: first, the definition of love and second, the necessity of an interpretive 'key' to reading the Bible- that is to say, Jesus Christ.
All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: MariaFaustina212 on May 05, 2011, 10:08:43 PM
Hi! Like TeresaBenedicta, I'm also a Catholic who caught wind of this site, so I suppose I can answer some questions too. What did you mean specifically about the "God of the bible"? I only ask this because there are many different viewpoints and angles that he can be looked at from the scriptures, and I don't want to assume which one you're talking about. That could get confusing if you and I were thinking of separate things, eh?

Well then, I extend a welcome to you too :)

Well the bible is a tricky book, because as believer could say that it's all either 'true' or 'inspired' or just some parts of it are. If the latter, then the main question falls on: which parts?

With the god of the bible, my question is more or less in the same context. He's merciful and the embodiment of love in some parts, but a cruel sadistically evil monster in others, even in the new testament. The bible can't even reconcile with its own contradictions, so how do people who believe it?

But anyways, that is not a topic for the introductions section. I'm just skimming on the surface here...   
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


TeresaBenedicta

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 05, 2011, 11:09:03 PM

Well the bible is a tricky book, because as believer could say that it's all either 'true' or 'inspired' or just some parts of it are. If the latter, then the main question falls on: which parts?

With the god of the bible, my question is more or less in the same context. He's merciful and the embodiment of love in some parts, but a cruel sadistically evil monster in others, even in the new testament. The bible can't even reconcile with its own contradictions, so how do people who believe it?

But anyways, that is not a topic for the introductions section. I'm just skimming on the surface here...   

Pretty on par for the course.  And fair questions.  Hopefully we can get to it at some point. 

((A general note: I apologize for the influx of Catholic visitors as of late- I suppose a pretty natural outcome when a site is mention on a different forum.  I just want to make clear again that I'm not here with any intention to preach or troll, although I'm happy to answer any questions folks throw at me... My background as an atheist lends me to have a particular interest in atheism and its various forms.  It's still a part of my life even if it no longer a worldview by which I subscribe.))

All men by nature desire to know. -Aristotle

The study of philosophy does not mean to learn what others have thought but to learn what is the truth of things. -St. Thomas Aquinas

xSilverPhinx

Diversity keeps things interesting ;)
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Stevil

Quote from: TeresaBenedicta on May 05, 2011, 11:18:34 PM
A general note: I apologize for the influx of Catholic visitors as of late-
No need to apologize. It's great to have a bunch of Catholics on the site. It's a flavour of Christianity that I have not discussed before, but have some media based exposure. The Exorcist movies, Vampire movies and the such. Hear stuff on the news about statements from the Pope.
My perception isn't that great so I would love to discuss and clarify some of this stuff.

By the way what would you call a collection of Catholics? You know, like a murder of crows, or a gaggle of geese, or a herd of cows?