This got posted in the Atheist Image Dump thread.
It got me thinking that which came first, the belief of the behaviour? If one's beliefs, or world view if you prefer, don't cause one's behaviour what does?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ClkkRI7EsGE%2FT0oDE1fy8FI%2FAAAAAAAAPPg%2FGYYEBDxEIfc%2Fs1600%2FYour%252BBeliefs%252BDon%252527t%252BMake%252BYou%252BA%252BBetter%252BPerson%252BYour%252BBehavior%252BDoes.jpg&hash=f4b3179f61a5818a9301a73c22999e3042823007)
Quote from: Tank on March 22, 2012, 09:13:45 PM
It got me thinking that which came first, the belief of the behaviour? If one's beliefs, or world view if you prefer, don't cause one's behaviour what does?
I think it would depend on the particular belief. My world view is based around the simple principle of non-agression. That is the principle from which I derive my morals. Although most people may not live their lives around that principle, they still follow it in many aspects of life. I think the two are symbiotic in most aspects though. An individuals beliefs contribute to their world view, and their world view contributes to their beliefs.
There just seem to be to many variables to answer this question fully. If we are discussing children, their worldview or beliefs, are likely a result of what the family believes.
I suppose I would answer with the following:
We are all indoctrinated to certain degree during childhood, and we all have different life experiences. I think the matter of what came first will differ greatly from individual to individual. Some develop the behavior, before adopting the philosophy or religion that supports such behaviors. Others find a religion or philosophy and choose to live their lives based on that moral framework. Or, in the case of many religions, persecuting those who don't follow that moral code, while doing the same thing in cheap motels.
I hope my thoughts make sense; I know sometimes they don't.
For me personally, it was a principle I always lived by, I simply didn't realize it. Acts of aggression were what made me first question the justness of both government and religion. I simply found a philosophy that already fit into my belief structure, and helped me bring my logic to it logical conclussions.
The problem with linking beliefs to behaviour is that leaves out all the environmental factors that cause people to act a certain way.
Take Christans for example. Some believe in the goody side of Jesus' message, but do they actually do what he says?
I think behaviour is largely how we measure the "goodness" of other people, so it's a pretty valuable way to think of things, I think. It certainly makes more sense to think of someone who "acts" in a "good" (whatever that means) way, but has "bad" beliefs is probably better than someone who "believes" in something "good" but acts in a "bad" way. Forgive all the quotation marks.
There are a lot of abstracts involved, so it's hard to agree or disagree without getting into an argument about morals and "what is good, what is bad, etc". But, by in large, I trust in the actions of people moreso than what they say they believe.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 23, 2012, 01:22:20 AM
But, by in large, I trust in the actions of people moreso than what they say they believe.
I feel the incredible urge to quote Batman here:
It's what you
do that defines you.
The wise Batman never said anything about belief... ;)
I believe our actions define us, but also how we think takes a large part.
If you say "oh, I have gay friends, but I dont believe their lifestyle is right and I dont support it" -- I believe you are an asshole, and a hypocrit.
So I really think it is kinda both.
Also, if you were taught to believe something as a kid, even if it is wrong, you may believe strongly it is right.
Interesting thoughts there. I wonder how much of a persons actions are considered vs impulsive vs reactionary? And how much one's beliefs shape ones behaviour in any given circumstance?
There is some evidence the decision making is rarely logical in the classical sense. If you stick somebody in a brain scanner and ask them to make a choice and then explain that choice the areas of the brain used are different. At the point of choice the whole brain is active, during the explanation only some selective areas associated with higher functions are active. The implication is that behaviour is controlled by experience that has been reinforced by repetition and beliefs really have limited initial impact. Behaviour appears to be rooted in the subconscious.
World view plays part in behaviour, I think, but there is a lot more to it.
It's all interconnected, but personality, mood, the disposition towards and of the surroundings, world views, instincts... They all play a part and many play parts in each other.
Quote from: Tank on March 23, 2012, 07:54:19 AM
Interesting thoughts there. I wonder how much of a persons actions are considered vs impulsive vs reactionary? And how much one's beliefs shape ones behaviour in any given circumstance?
There is some evidence the decision making is rarely logical in the classical sense. If you stick somebody in a brain scanner and ask them to make a choice and then explain that choice the areas of the brain used are different. At the point of choice the whole brain is active, during the explanation only some selective areas associated with higher functions are active. The implication is that behaviour is controlled by experience that has been reinforced by repetition and beliefs really have limited initial impact. Behaviour appears to be rooted in the subconscious.
Yeah. I think about if a kid is taught to hate from a young age, it may be very hard or even impossible for him to break that mindset.
Let's say, for example; a kid's parent hates mexicans and generalises them as a bad stereotype overall. His/her kid sees this kind of behavior and thinks it normal. So even if the kid grows and sees mexicans in school,being normal and friendly, he /she may hate them without really realizing.
I'm not sure if I explained that alright xD
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 23, 2012, 11:31:57 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 23, 2012, 07:54:19 AM
Interesting thoughts there. I wonder how much of a persons actions are considered vs impulsive vs reactionary? And how much one's beliefs shape ones behaviour in any given circumstance?
There is some evidence the decision making is rarely logical in the classical sense. If you stick somebody in a brain scanner and ask them to make a choice and then explain that choice the areas of the brain used are different. At the point of choice the whole brain is active, during the explanation only some selective areas associated with higher functions are active. The implication is that behaviour is controlled by experience that has been reinforced by repetition and beliefs really have limited initial impact. Behaviour appears to be rooted in the subconscious.
Yeah. I think about if a kid is taught to hate from a young age, it may be very hard or even impossible for him to break that mindset.
Let's say, for example; a kid's parent hates mexicans and generalises them as a bad stereotype overall. His/her kid sees this kind of behavior and thinks it normal. So even if the kid grows and sees mexicans in school,being normal and friendly, he /she may hate them without really realizing.
I'm not sure if I explained that alright xD
I think you summed it up perfectly. It is difficult to overcome childhood indoctrination, very difficult. But it can be done as evidenced by all the ex-theists here.
Quote from: Tank on March 23, 2012, 07:54:19 AM
Interesting thoughts there. I wonder how much of a persons actions are considered vs impulsive vs reactionary? And how much one's beliefs shape ones behaviour in any given circumstance?
There is some evidence the decision making is rarely logical in the classical sense. If you stick somebody in a brain scanner and ask them to make a choice and then explain that choice the areas of the brain used are different. At the point of choice the whole brain is active, during the explanation only some selective areas associated with higher functions are active. The implication is that behaviour is controlled by experience that has been reinforced by repetition and beliefs really have limited initial impact. Behaviour appears to be rooted in the subconscious.
They put one in a fMRI and it showed that the time gap between his brain making a decision and him being consciously aware of the decision he made was 6 seconds. Thats a hell of a long time.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 23, 2012, 04:36:10 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 23, 2012, 07:54:19 AM
Interesting thoughts there. I wonder how much of a persons actions are considered vs impulsive vs reactionary? And how much one's beliefs shape ones behaviour in any given circumstance?
There is some evidence the decision making is rarely logical in the classical sense. If you stick somebody in a brain scanner and ask them to make a choice and then explain that choice the areas of the brain used are different. At the point of choice the whole brain is active, during the explanation only some selective areas associated with higher functions are active. The implication is that behaviour is controlled by experience that has been reinforced by repetition and beliefs really have limited initial impact. Behaviour appears to be rooted in the subconscious.
They put one in a fMRI and it showed that the time gap between his brain making a decision and him being consciously aware of the decision he made was 6 seconds. Thats a hell of a long time.
And perfectly reasonable when one considers the selection pressures our ancestors evolved under. When a predator attacks one needs to react 'instinctively'. One can argue the benefits of running, or climbing a tree, later; but only if one survives!
Quote from: Tank on March 22, 2012, 09:13:45 PM
This got posted in the Atheist Image Dump thread.
It got me thinking that which came first, the belief of the behaviour? If one's beliefs, or world view if you prefer, don't cause one's behaviour what does?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-ClkkRI7EsGE%2FT0oDE1fy8FI%2FAAAAAAAAPPg%2FGYYEBDxEIfc%2Fs1600%2FYour%252BBeliefs%252BDon%252527t%252BMake%252BYou%252BA%252BBetter%252BPerson%252BYour%252BBehavior%252BDoes.jpg&hash=f4b3179f61a5818a9301a73c22999e3042823007)
I don't think that this question can be answered beliefs or the propensity to believe is a behavior. Just as thinking is a behavior a belief is simply a concrete thought regarding certain realities. Beilefs are dynamic and can be changed therefore they are not innate like a heartbeat but learned and expressed. believing is behaving.
Quote from: Twentythree on March 23, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
believing is behaving.
Where does hypocrisy fit into this? Unless the beliefs themselves are hypocritical, for instance, "I believe in applying the Golden Rule, unless it involves me as the victim".
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 23, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Twentythree on March 23, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
believing is behaving.
Where does hypocrisy fit into this? Unless the beliefs themselves are hypocritical, for instance, "I believe in applying the Golden Rule, unless it involves me as the victim".
Perhaps hypocrisy or exceptions could be an indication of not really believing.
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on March 23, 2012, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 23, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Twentythree on March 23, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
believing is behaving.
Where does hypocrisy fit into this? Unless the beliefs themselves are hypocritical, for instance, "I believe in applying the Golden Rule, unless it involves me as the victim".
Perhaps hypocrisy or exceptions could be an indication of not really believing.
That would be my guess. People can say they believe this or that, and truly think they believe it until they're challenged by some hard-core reality (a good example being the abortion clinic protestor who gets an abortion when an unwanted pregnancy comes her way). I think what we truly believe is shown in our behavior.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 24, 2012, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on March 23, 2012, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 23, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Twentythree on March 23, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
believing is behaving.
Where does hypocrisy fit into this? Unless the beliefs themselves are hypocritical, for instance, "I believe in applying the Golden Rule, unless it involves me as the victim".
Perhaps hypocrisy or exceptions could be an indication of not really believing.
That would be my guess. People can say they believe this or that, and truly think they believe it until they're challenged by some hard-core reality (a good example being the abortion clinic protestor who gets an abortion when an unwanted pregnancy comes her way). I think what we truly believe is shown in our behavior.
Good insights :) I didn't actually consider that they didn't actually believe (but just rather like to think they do) until a reality smacks them hard in the face.
Quote from: TankIt got me thinking that which came first, the belief of the behaviour? If one's beliefs, or world view if you prefer, don't cause one's behaviour what does?
Your circumstances, perhaps. I imagine the chain of cause and effect in reverse. Your beliefs come about from looking at where you have been and what you have done, to make sense out of it all, just as much if not more than from looking at where you're going and how you should behave when you get there.
so rather than being simply
your beliefs -> effect your behaviour -> affects you circumstances.
it's just as much a case of
your circumstances -> effect your behaviour -> effects your beliefs.
So there's a sort of feedback loop going on. If one thing changes in the loop, then so does everything else. However the most dominant factor in this case would be circumstance, since it can only be
affected, to varying and unpredictable degrees, not only by
your behaviour but also everyone else's around you, random chance, the weather etc. Even your death is only going to affect the outside world in a small and temporary way. Your beliefs and behaviour, on the other hand, cannot exist independently of circumstance or of each other. So ultimately external circumstance drives you, your behaviours and your beliefs.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 24, 2012, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: ThinkAnarchy on March 23, 2012, 07:25:20 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 23, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
Quote from: Twentythree on March 23, 2012, 06:11:36 PM
believing is behaving.
Where does hypocrisy fit into this? Unless the beliefs themselves are hypocritical, for instance, "I believe in applying the Golden Rule, unless it involves me as the victim".
Perhaps hypocrisy or exceptions could be an indication of not really believing.
That would be my guess. People can say they believe this or that, and truly think they believe it until they're challenged by some hard-core reality (a good example being the abortion clinic protestor who gets an abortion when an unwanted pregnancy comes her way). I think what we truly believe is shown in our behavior.
I don't know that I agree with this. I can think of instances in my own life where I knew what the "right" thing to do was, but I still did the "wrong" thing, not because I secretly doubted the "rightness" but because the wrong thing was easier.
For example, I believe in honesty, and think that honesty is almost always the right thing. The times where I have been dishonest aren't typically times where I secretly doubted that honesty was the correct thing to do, but more times where I knew that honesty was going to land me in a situation that I didn't want to deal with. Not a "right" reason to avoid honesty, just a practical (if somewhat cowardly) one.
In a word: Yes. Beliefs inform and guide behavior. The chain goes something like this:
Perception molds thoughts.
Thoughts mold belief.
Belief molds behavior.
Behaviors generate new perceptions.