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"transgenderism" in children

Started by AngelOfDeath, December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM

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Recusant

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PMtake a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

A little reminder of how rational discourse works: The person making the assertion is the one who has a burden of proof. Assertions unsupported by evidence have no standing. This is so basic it shouldn't need to be pointed out. I will note in passing that the study most often cited by religious and/or right wing anti-trans sources is being misused, as its own author has said.

QuotePeople who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look at the literature, we find that several recent studies conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria and improves mental health.





Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I would think a male to female trans having relations with a man would most def be homosexual, unless the trans is post op.  Because if  not post op then under the clothing and makeup that person still has all the workings of a man.  As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".  I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.  I suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans.  The person actually is still a man even if being self deluded into thinking he is a woman.  If a male to female trans can become a "she" and a "woman" we have to ask ourselves: what even is a woman?  It just becomes all too confusing.  1st world problems i suppose.  If you live in a place where you're just worrying about where your next meal will come from every single day I suppose you're far less likely to be worried that you were born the wrong sex, etc.

"It" is dehumanizing, regardless of intention. I think this is particularly the case when the person so described belongs to a minority. "It" commonly refers to inanimate objects or plants, somewhat less commonly animals. Human beings belong only to the last category, but that is no excuse for lumping them in with non-human things.

"They" as a third person singular neutral pronoun has a long history, whether you like it or not.

"A brief history of singular 'their' (etc.)"

"Singular 'they' and the many reasons why it's correct" | Motivated Grammar

"2015 Word of the Year is singular 'they'" | American Dialect Society
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Sandra Craft

Quote from: Tank on December 13, 2017, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.
I wish there was a ban hammer.

I thought you had one, that's a terrible over-sight.  Here:
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Magdalena

Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.

...And none of them know how to google shit on the internet, so they go to an atheist forum and ask about everything because they know nothing.

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

Sandra Craft

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".  I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.

From Merriam-Webster:  historical use of "they" as a singular pronoun

QuoteI suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans. 

There's a difference between gender and sex.  From a medical website: Sex and Gender: what is the difference?

Again, using Google, less than one minute each.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Sandra Craft

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?

Yeah.

I asked AngelofDeath what his qualifications were for making that assessment, which he has yet to answer.  ::)

take a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

And? What do you think that proves? I would like to know how you make the leap from higher rates of suicide in post-op trans folks to it's an organic mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

Depression has long been established as a mental disorder, and be caused by anti-transgender bias like the type you display. The non-acceptance that people feel they are of the wrong gender can really take an emotional toll I would imagine. Human beings are essentially a social species, and social acceptance is high on the list for many.

Look at https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf, page 11.

And here's another one, this one from Psychology Today: Why suicide rates are higher amoung LGBTQ youth

As Silver points out, the acceptance of your family and your society mean a lot, and if you're in constant danger of losing either or both or worse yet have never truly had them, the risk of suicide climbs.  Mental illness might be part of it but it's hardly necessary, a shunned human being is an extremely vulnerable human being.

For example.  In the early 60s when my mother was in her 20s and unmarried, she was left pregnant by a rape and attempted to commit suicide.  The trauma of rape was bad enough, but at least very few people knew about it and could judge her for it.  But pregnancy was not something she'd be able to hide and since all she had to look forward to was condemnation, judgement and shunning from both her family and society at large she felt that death was preferable.  She didn't die, but that's another story.

The point is this wasn't an unusual reaction at that time for women in her position, even if they'd gotten pregnant by consensual sex.  This was a reaction to going from a lifetime of acceptance and support to the threat of, at least temporarily, losing that.  Imagine the effect on someone's sense of self-worth after a lifetime of lacking any support or acceptance.  The only thing suicide rates among trans people tell us is the degree to which society has failed to behave with generosity and kindness.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Magdalena

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 14, 2017, 03:34:02 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?

Yeah.

I asked AngelofDeath what his qualifications were for making that assessment, which he has yet to answer.  ::)

take a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

And? What do you think that proves? I would like to know how you make the leap from higher rates of suicide in post-op trans folks to it's an organic mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

Depression has long been established as a mental disorder, and be caused by anti-transgender bias like the type you display. The non-acceptance that people feel they are of the wrong gender can really take an emotional toll I would imagine. Human beings are essentially a social species, and social acceptance is high on the list for many.

Look at https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf, page 11.

And here's another one, this one from Psychology Today: Why suicide rates are higher amoung LGBTQ youth

As Silver points out, the acceptance of your family and your society mean a lot, and if you're in constant danger of losing either or both or worse yet have never truly had them, the risk of suicide climbs.  Mental illness might be part of it but it's hardly necessary, a shunned human being is an extremely vulnerable human being.

For example.  In the early 60s when my mother was in her 20s and unmarried, she was left pregnant by a rape and attempted to commit suicide.  The trauma of rape was bad enough, but at least very few people knew about it and could judge her for it.  But pregnancy was not something she'd be able to hide and since all she had to look forward to was condemnation, judgement and shunning from both her family and society at large she felt that death was preferable.  She didn't die, but that's another story.

The point is this wasn't an unusual reaction at that time for women in her position, even if they'd gotten pregnant by consensual sex.  This was a reaction to going from a lifetime of acceptance and support to the threat of, at least temporarily, losing that.  Imagine the effect on someone's sense of self-worth after a lifetime of lacking any support or acceptance.  The only thing suicide rates among trans people tell us is the degree to which society has failed to behave with generosity and kindness.
What would Jesus say?  :notsure:


"xSilverPhinx, Davin, BooksCatsEtc: Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

"I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe." ~Recusant

AngelOfDeath

#66

i pondered for a bit about whether to use he or she, but in split second decision put 'it' because it was shorter to type in, but probly shoulda put 'the person'

AngelOfDeath

#67


psychologytoday isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.

Tank

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
...
psychology today isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.
Which psychology source would you trust?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Bad Penny II

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 07:50:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I would think a male to female trans having relations with a man would most def be homosexual, unless the trans is post op.
And you care about this...Because....?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
Because if  not post op then under the clothing and makeup that person still has all the workings of a man.
And you worry about this...Because?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".
Yes, it was.

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.
How do you know this? Do you know many?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans.  The person actually is still a man even if being self deluded into thinking he is a woman.  If a male to female trans can become a "she" and a "woman" we have to ask ourselves: what even is a woman?  It just becomes all too confusing.  1st world problems i suppose.  If you live in a place where you're just worrying about where your next meal will come from every single day I suppose you're far less likely to be worried that you were born the wrong sex, etc.
If you worry as much as you do about another person's genitalia, that would also be a, "1st world problem i suppose."

I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder I think we should try and help them.  its more than likely an organic mental disorder like schizophrenia.  We don't go around supporting schizophrenics with their delusions and telling them delusion is real.  These folks need help accepting the way they were born not being encouraged into delusion.  If they're trans and only take it to the point of crossdressing maybe this is fine.  crossdressing i think does no real harm

I care about these folks. And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder (ass hole mania) I think we should try and help them.

It costs you nothing to allow people to just be.
Well it costs me nothing, though I don't get my jollies intentionally hurting others.
I see that this would cost you, have you thought of scrap booking or preserving fruit?
Take my advice, don't listen to me.

Davin

Quote from: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.

...And none of them know how to google shit on the internet, so they go to an atheist forum and ask about everything because they know nothing.
Or they googled for, "topics to use when trolling a forum"
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Davin

I still want to know what the mental disorder is. AoD said it was a mental disorder, such a bold claim should be easy to back by just saying what mental disorder it is.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Recusant

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:10:00 AMi pondered for a bit about whether to use he or she, but in split second decision put 'it' because it was shorter to type in, but probly shoulda put 'the person'

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
psychologytoday isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.

So, immediately after admitting that you "probly shoulda" used less dehumanizing language when referring to trans people, you apparently use bad grammar in order to go out of your way to use that same dehumanizing term. Your approach to discussions here will determine how you're treated by members and staff of this site, AngelOfDeath, and bullshit like the above discredits you as an honest interlocutor.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


No one

The mental shambles afflict everyone, it's just more readily apparent in some people.

AngelOfDeath

Quote from: Tank on December 14, 2017, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
...
psychology today isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.
Which psychology source would you trust?

probably one that doesn't try to be politically correct and support whatever the fad of the day is.