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General => Politics => Topic started by: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 10:04:40 AM

Title: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 10:04:40 AM
It's no big secret that these days, the Atheist ""movement"" is split along several fronts in the ongoing culture war. It's a volatile topic, but the purpose of this thread is not to call for controversy, or dive deep into political and ideological disagreements, but to provide my perspective and encourage others to provide their. Agree? Disagree? Meh? If you can be so arsed, let us discuss.

I joined this forum back when it was still relatively young (As was I... It was, if I'm not mistaken, my 21st birthday), at a time when atehists of every stripe banded together against religion. We had the power of the Internet and the growing social media, allowing those of us surrounded by religion, to find like-minded people and discover that they were not alone. I think that was important for a lot of people, especially in countries where "atheist" was, and perhaps still is, seen as a derogatory term. Important enough to set aside our ideological differences, even. We've won that war where it was possible to win it. At the very least, I think it's fair to say that we've won the Internet. Sure, the likes of Ken Ham are still here, raking in tens of millions of dollars a year, while peddling demonstrable bullshit, but in the year of our Lord 2018, he has little choice, but to live with our presence. This is important not just because we achieved something, but also because of the tools we've had at our disposal.

Having said "everything" worth saying on the topic of religion, the ""movement"" began to split. I wonder if it was an inevitable result of searching for a new purpose, or something else. It's a discussion worth having.

First, I think there was Atheism+, with the likes of P.Z. Myers and Steve Shives jumping on the wagon of "atheism ought to be something more," thus giving birth to an ideology and a new movement, which is part of the Social Justice Warriors (SJWs) of today. They are not a unified front (nor are they limited to the original Atheism+ crowd, or even necessarily atheists) - pretty much no group I'll reference in this thread is, but they do have some common objectives. To oversimplify for the purpose of tl;dr, those among them who are not in it for the lulz, aim to engineer a better society. Keeping to the purpose of this thread, I'm not going to go on a tirade about their goals and methods beyond stating that in general, they hold collectivist, rather than individualist principles.

Some of the people who opposed the idea that Atheism ought to be something more than a lack of belief in gods banded together against them. Among the first on my personal timeline, were people like Thunderf00t and The Amazing Atheist of YouTube. This is the core movement I'm loosely affiliated with today. Loosely, because the movement is deeply individualistic in its nature, and we may often agree on "nothing" beyond our common liberal (think enlightenment, not US/UK politics) goals.

The third group of people (though not the third front in this custure war; that one is defined at the bottom), were those who didn't think much of Atehism+, but didn't want to associate with the "Anti-SJW" side either. Many of them still managed to find their way into one of the camps or form camps of their own, largely thanks to politics in these past few years (President Trump was a major factor for many)

History lesson done, let's get into the meat of this conversation.

I can see how, in light of the events I described in the second paragraph, atheism now largely takes a back seat to more pressing concerns in the lives of fellow atheists - that's how it is, and that's how it should be. Still, I find it lamentable that so many in my camp are willing to go along with the religious bullshit of people like Milo (Not attempting to spell that last name - no disrespect intended) and Jordan Peterson simply because they are seen as Anti-SJW wrecking balls, leaving a trail of triggered Tumblrinas everywhere they go and every time they open their mouth. I find it equally lamentable that the likes of Steve Shives (And the SJW-movement in general - not even going into the likes of Antifa) would happily silence dissenting opinions, with reasons anchored in some spectacular mental gymnastics. Have you frogotten the time, when various religious apologists were trying to silence you?

I have a much longer list of grievances with the situation, but I think I can summarise them all in one question; does not believing in god being acceptable enough make it "right" for me as an atheist to forsake or set aside the principles I still hold, and that I once fought a different culture war to protect? To me and what seems to be a handful of others, the answer is "no." I think that in reality, we are many, but the loudest voices trend more towards the fringes.

This is where I think we atheists are today. The question is, where are we headed? Each to his own ideological/political/cultural camp? I did try not to ramble too much, so if you are still reading, I'd like some thoughts/different perspectives.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: No one on September 04, 2018, 11:24:01 AM
In all honesty, I don't really care. I mean, it's nice that there are like minds that do not buy into the delusion that a wish granting, magic sky daddy favorites the "intelligent" inhabitants of Earth above all other creations. However, I do not associate with any movement.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 11:29:08 AM
Quote from: No one on September 04, 2018, 11:24:01 AM
In all honesty, I don't really care. I mean, it's nice that there are like minds that do not buy into the delusion that a wish granting, magic sky daddy favorites the "intelligent" inhabitants of Earth above all other creations. However, I do not associate with any movement.
That's perfectly fair. Just one observation; the reason behind my double quotation marks around the word "movement" was precisely that so many people say that they are not a part of one. Still, if you are on the same street, going along the same route, towards the same building, with the intention of entering it, in that instance, you are a part of the same crowd. I don't mean to collectivise you or divide people into groups, but individuals working towards broadly the same goals, a movement make.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2018, 12:13:06 PM
Hmm, opinions I have - but it might take me a while, including some reafing, to compose them adequately.

However, I would like to mention humanism, a label whose mesning has changed over time from concerning a humanity centered philosophy (sometimes with the odd god bit thrown in) to currently, in the vernaclar, a sort of subset of atheism where the god bits have evolved into a "creed" or "belief" regardingvthe nature of life and tge universe and about supporting others positively, even proactively. As well as, in a political sense, attempting to reduce the influence of religion in education and policy making.

There are large differences between "hard" atheism and humanism but, from evidence on this forum, there is a fuzzy line between "us" and the less belicose atheists. Just good folks!

The Internet was a boon for humanism as well, though, listening to a series of programmes on morals this week (see below) and other programmes  it seems that (anti)social media is becoming more of a divisive force and a cause of negative self-inage, as well as the cause of depression, negstive introspection and actual social breakdown in terms of going out to meet friends in person.

With that going on the chances of "recruiting" active members, those who have made a considered decision, to atheism reduces I think. There will, of course, always be the core of up and coming adults who will question things (I doubt that all of them are social media addicts who need to check their phone every ten minutes) but, so far, in my experience, the old fights get refought every generation. Reform, in this respect, appears to have an historical (if not quite geological) time scale rather than a generational one. Assuming humanity survives its own stupidity.

I am not inclined to listen to the polemicists any longer, having heard the same things argued so many times with such lack of effect. Though, I admit, I do get caught up with it here at times - if only to sharpen the edge of my own ideas (and the hope that I have helped a theist find enlightenment!) I think the gradual movement from the influence of churches in everyday life may have had a few nudges from atgeism/humsnism but, in sone places, it is as much due to the growing ineffectiveness of religion as an example due the many crimes it and its members have committed.

However, I would like to see more debate here, I like the "social" side of the forum, would even say it in important in my life (I don't get out much . . .) and wish it would attract more members - of "the right type", not the "shouters" that other forums have.

In everyday terms we can only only do a little as individuals, unless we are inclined towards influencing others via blogging in some form or joining an active organisation.

Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 12:32:13 PM
Hmm...

Yes, it's an interesting thought; the same battles being re-fought once a generation or so... Disturbing as it may be to contemplate, I agree. It may be different people fighting under different banners, but when you think about it, it does seem like at the bottom of it all, there is a handful of "unchanging" core values that have at each other each time. I mean, is there a culture war, which can not be boiled down to individual vs group, or, to put it in political terms, increased freedom vs. increased control?
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2018, 01:05:11 PM
Oops, forgot the radio link:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bgpswg

Do not be put off by the fact that the presenter is Rabbi Jonathan Sacks - his is a fairly object view . . . So far.

There is no doubt that society, and its cultures, are going through yet another mangle, maybe a shredder, but the future divisions are not yet terribly clear on some fronts.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 01:18:15 PM
Thanks for the link.

From the get-go, I disagree with his description of morality, but it does sound like a fascinating thing to listen to. I'll do so on my way home today... Possibly even make a rebuttal post here.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: No one on September 04, 2018, 03:02:13 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrackand-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=1c4201e62253a151f428d89bc304b6c9babb2023) Asmodean:
That's perfectly fair. Just one observation; the reason behind my double quotation marks around the word "movement" was precisely that so many people say that they are not a part of one. Still, if you are on the same street, going along the same route, towards the same building, with the intention of entering it, in that instance, you are a part of the same crowd. I don't mean to collectivise you or divide people into groups, but individuals working towards broadly the same goals, a movement make.

Point taken. We, as atheists, are in the same building. Not necessarily though, on the same floor.

Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2018, 04:03:26 PM
Quote from: No one on September 04, 2018, 03:02:13 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrackand-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=1c4201e62253a151f428d89bc304b6c9babb2023) Asmodean:
That's perfectly fair. Just one observation; the reason behind my double quotation marks around the word "movement" was precisely that so many people say that they are not a part of one. Still, if you are on the same street, going along the same route, towards the same building, with the intention of entering it, in that instance, you are a part of the same crowd. I don't mean to collectivise you or divide people into groups, but individuals working towards broadly the same goals, a movement make.

Point taken. We, as atheists, are in the same building. Not necessarily though, on the same floor.

And is it an open-plan style or do we peer over dividers at each other?
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2018, 04:45:13 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 01:18:15 PM
Thanks for the link.

From the get-go, I disagree with his description of morality, but it does sound like a fascinating thing to listen to. I'll do so on my way home today... Possibly even make a rebuttal post here.

Have re-listened I understand that some might query Sacks' definition, somehow it is too specific and concentrates on our doing good not mentioning our not doing 'evil'. I prefer the relatively simple definition:

"principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour."

Yet, one culture's morality is another's crime.  And there we have one part of the twist in the tail, how many "cultures", and moral models, are there now and how many will there be in a decade, even within the same original ethnic group in the same nation? Aother part is the chsngingvrelationship between the law and morality. Gays and atheists are legal and moral persons (legally - but I am sure there are personally immoral person in both groups) in many countries yet immoral criminals in others.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Sandra Craft on September 04, 2018, 09:34:26 PM
I guess I'm in The Asmo's third group --I don't think there needs to be anything "+" about atheism (in fact I think it's just another form of unnecessary exclusion), but on the other hand I think the majority of anti-SJW types are complete assholes (at least those I've encountered).  As someone who's benefited from the acts of SJWs thru out history, I'm not inclined to sneer even when they do go overboard.  So I guess that ultimately puts me in their group.

QuoteI have a much longer list of grievances with the situation, but I think I can summarise them all in one question; does not believing in god being acceptable enough make it "right" for me as an atheist to forsake or set aside the principles I still hold, and that I once fought a different culture war to protect? To me and what seems to be a handful of others, the answer is "no." I think that in reality, we are many, but the loudest voices trend more towards the fringes.

I'm not even sure I understand this question, but I think my answer is "no".  I also think it's an extremely grey area, but I'm guessing at that.

Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 04, 2018, 10:33:10 PM
Hmmm, I think of myself as a humanist because, from what I have read and heard over the decades, that appears to describe my image of myself most accurately. But I am aware that I am only one of a cloud of dots somewhere in a Venn bubble of atheism, agreeingvwith done, very much disagreeing with others.

The label is perhaps more useful to others perhaps, it allows them to, roughly, categotise me. Whatever they call themselves I try to ''judge' others on their actions. However I think the 'Brights' label so pretentious as to be close to contemptuous.

Perhaps 'strong' and 'weak' atheism have validity, and 'antitheism' as the extreme of that spectrum. But, do such mutually introspective discussions have any real purpose? Or, perhaps, that are they an excuse to explore the less visited recesses of our own minds to adjust, or re-affirm, a few things gives them value.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Icarus on September 05, 2018, 06:16:27 AM
Scan the forum to see many threads. Only one or two of them have atheism as a subject.  One of the things that ,makes this forum a pleasing place to go is that most of us are not hung up on religion bashing.

I am sometimes annoyed by the public pronouncements of the committed religionist.  My newspaper has a reader write in section that appears on the editorial page. That feature very often has someone, who can actually write, tell me that I must give my heart to Jesus before it is too late, that atheists cannot  have a moral compass, and all that sort of thing.

OK when I used the words; "who can actually write"  it was a snarky remark.  I will follow that up with an explanation, perhaps an apology,  later.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 05, 2018, 06:32:35 AM
Quote from: Icarus on September 05, 2018, 06:16:27 AM
Scan the forum to see many threads. Only one or two of them have atheism as a subject.  One of the things that ,makes this forum a pleasing place to go is that most of us are not hung up on religion bashing.

I am sometimes annoyed by the public pronouncements of the committed religionist.  My newspaper has a reader write in section that appears on the editorial page. That feature very often has someone, who can actually write, tell me that I must give my heart to Jesus before it is too late, that atheists cannot  have a moral compass, and all that sort of thing.

OK when I used the words; "who can actually write"  it was a snarky remark.  I will follow that up with an explanation, perhaps an apology,  later.

I agree, Icarus, this is one of the "gentler" forums in my experience. But that raises the question about the nature of forummers and humanity. The more aggressive forums often have many times our active membership and post-rate. There is something in human nature that seeks the contentious, the argumentative, the verbal fight. Often even where there is not one!

I try to leave pro-active religion bashing, mostly, to others but am willing to join in in response to pushy religionistas who venture to "put us right".
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 05, 2018, 08:18:04 AM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on September 04, 2018, 09:34:26 PM
I guess I'm in The Asmo's third group --I don't think there needs to be anything "+" about atheism (in fact I think it's just another form of unnecessary exclusion), but on the other hand I think the majority of anti-SJW types are complete assholes (at least those I've encountered).  As someone who's benefited from the acts of SJWs thru out history, I'm not inclined to sneer even when they do go overboard.  So I guess that ultimately puts me in their group.
Yes, Atheism+ was an exclusionary group. Its... Followers, I suppose, were generally quick to disavow and call names those of us, who voiced our disagreement, no matter how benign that disagreement was. They built fences around their ideology, and... Well, you know how it goes. I promised myself not to go on tirades in this thread ;)

When it comes to anti-SJWs generally being assholes, I'd like to point you to one Tim Pool. He's a journalist, who I think works full-time on his YouTube channel these days. He's a liberal (Again, and this is rapidly becoming a mandatory disclaimer, think Enlightenment, not US/UK politics) and while he's somewhat left-leaning, he can certainly be described as an anti-SJW. (At the very least, anti-identitarian, which... Same coin, different face) From what I've seen of his stuff, an asshole, he most certainly is not. Worth checking out.

As for benefitting from SJW activities, I'm sure some people do. I'd like to ask you to expand upon that thought a little, if you care to. Me, I'm what they call a cis-white-male, and being perfectly OK with that makes me an SJWs natural enemy, what with all my white privilege and oppressing of women and minorities and what have you. *Sigh* To laugh, or cry, or roll one's eyes...

Quote
I'm not even sure I understand this question, but I think my answer is "no".  I also think it's an extremely grey area, but I'm guessing at that.
It's... Not easy to word well. I think you understood it correctly, as you have identified it as grayer than a bucket of Asmos. It has to do with the responsibility a person has to themselves in regard to the values they hold and those they oppose. I mean, if we just finished fighting a war with each other over some value, and our values haven't really changed, how important does a goal have to be for us to jump in bed with each other, ignoring said values? Again, I do apologize for the appallingly vague wording - I'm trying to put into writing something... Almost instinctual.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Sandra Craft on September 05, 2018, 08:48:59 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 05, 2018, 08:18:04 AM
As for benefitting from SJW activities, I'm sure some people do. I'd like to ask you to expand upon that thought a little, if you care to. Me, I'm what they call a cis-white-male, and being perfectly OK with that makes me an SJWs natural enemy, what with all my white privilege and oppressing of women and minorities and what have you. *Sigh* To laugh, or cry, or roll one's eyes...

I've ear-marked Tim Pool on YouTube and will listen when I get a minute.

As for benefiting, in addition to being an atheist, I'm also queer, sort of socialist and a feminist.  None of which is all that popular even now but is a lot less dangerous to be these days thanks to the efforts of SJWs.  I also appreciate having the vote (useless as it sometimes seems), of living with considerably less pressure to marry and have kids, and of having had a better chance at getting a decent job which, as a woman, is also thanks to the efforts of SJWs over the years.

Quote
It's... Not easy to word well. I think you understood it correctly, as you have identified it as grayer than a bucket of Asmos. It has to do with the responsibility a person has to themselves in regard to the values they hold and those they oppose. I mean, if we just finished fighting a war with each other over some value, and our values haven't really changed, how important does a goal have to be for us to jump in bed with each other, ignoring said values? Again, I do apologize for the appallingly vague wording - I'm trying to put into writing something... Almost instinctual.

Hm, I was interpreting it as not changing principles and values when they become unpopular.  I definitely don't think principles and values should be subjected to a popularity contest, but on the other hand I do think they should be reconsidered in light of others opinions, just in case they've thought of something I haven't, something important.  Revision shouldn't be mandatory, but it is sometimes necessary.

I'm not sure we need to compromise principles we see no reason to change in order to work with someone who disagrees to achieve a joint goal, but then that can get iffy too.  If we're fighting for the same thing now, but find out we mean to use it to go in opposing directions, should we really be in the same fight at all?
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 05, 2018, 09:21:44 AM
Quote from: Sandra Craft on September 05, 2018, 08:48:59 AM
As for benefiting, in addition to being an atheist, I'm also queer, sort of socialist and a feminist.  None of which is all that popular even now but is a lot less dangerous to be these days thanks to the efforts of SJWs.
There is correlation there, but I'm not sure about causation. This can be debated until we turn blue, then green, then purple, but I would argue that liberals (insert standard disclaimer from earlier) are in a way better on at least two of these issues than the SJWs. You see, we won't pander to demographics, but generally, we don't care about your sexuality as long as you practice it with consenting adults, nor do we tend to care whether you are male or female when it comes to your standing in the eyes of the law. When it comes to feminism... Well, that's a massive barrel of worms in its own right, but here, it sort of depends on what exactly you put into the term. If it is about equal rights for women, then we are largely of the opinion that in the "civilised" world, women do have that, as they should. If there are problems there, demonstrably tied to discrimination, then they ought to be solved. If, however, you go into the intersectionalist post-modern philosophy... Individualists have issues with being collectivised, especially if they are collectivised "wrongly." That's a topic for another thread though, I think... Still self-enforcing my "no tirades" rule :P

EDIT: Failed to address Atheism and Socialism, I see. When it comes to Atehism, we are "all" of us a pretty chill bunch. Socialism, however, is not easily compatible with liberty. Its core tenet is that workers (the Collectiveâ„¢) should own the means of production, while we are firmly on the side of private property being good and necessary for a healthy society. Thus, SJWs do indeed trend towards Socialism to a far higher degree than we, antis.

QuoteI also appreciate having the vote (useless as it sometimes seems), of living with considerably less pressure to marry and have kids, and of having had a better chance at getting a decent job which, as a woman, is also thanks to the efforts of SJWs over the years.
I think those were the achievements of women's liberation movements over the decades. Those participating were not necessarily SJWs of their day and age - you see, you can't avoid subscribing to intersectionality and be an SJW.

I'll try to explain intersectionality in an understandable way. It's about dividing humanity into groups based on a potentially infinite number of degrees of similarity, and viewing the societal dynamics as a constant struggle between the oppressors and the oppressed among those groups. Basically, it's not me vs you, but men vs. women. It's not me vs you, but white men vs white women. It's not me vs you, but white straight men vs white queer women, etc, etc. You see the pattern emerging between individualist and intersectionalist thinking, yes? You are your lattice of group attributes before you are an individual. Disagreeable...

Quote
Hm, I was interpreting it as not changing principles and values when they become unpopular.  I definitely don't think principles and values should be subjected to a popularity contest, but on the other hand I do think they should be reconsidered in light of others opinions, just in case they've thought of something I haven't, something important.  Revision shouldn't be mandatory, but it is sometimes necessary.


I'm not sure we need to compromise principles we see no reason to change in order to work with someone who disagrees to achieve a joint goal, but then that can get iffy too.  If we're fighting for the same thing now, but find out we mean to use it to go in opposing directions, should we really be in the same fight at all?
Yes. Pretty much this. :smilenod: I don't really have a solid, well-thought out answer, but I lean towards "no." An enemy of my enemy may well be my friend, but do I not owe it to myself to figure it out before pitching my tent in his camp?
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Bad Penny II on September 05, 2018, 01:20:39 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 04, 2018, 10:04:40 AM

I can see how, in light of the events I described in the second paragraph, atheism now largely takes a back seat to more pressing concerns in the lives of fellow atheists - that's how it is, and that's how it should be. Still, I find it lamentable that so many in my camp are willing to go along with the religious bullshit of people like Milo (Not attempting to spell that last name - no disrespect intended) and Jordan Peterson simply because they are seen as Anti-SJW wrecking balls, leaving a trail of triggered Tumblrinas everywhere they go and every time they open their mouth. I find it equally lamentable that the likes of Steve Shives (And the SJW-movement in general - not even going into the likes of Antifa) would happily silence dissenting opinions, with reasons anchored in some spectacular mental gymnastics. Have you frogotten the time, when various religious apologists were trying to silence you?

I have a much longer list of grievances with the situation, but I think I can summarise them all in one question; does not believing in god being acceptable enough make it "right" for me as an atheist to forsake or set aside the principles I still hold, and that I once fought a different culture war to protect? To me and what seems to be a handful of others, the answer is "no." I think that in reality, we are many, but the loudest voices trend more towards the fringes.

This is where I think we atheists are today. The question is, where are we headed? Each to his own ideological/political/cultural camp? I did try not to ramble too much, so if you are still reading, I'd like some thoughts/different perspectives.

Humans are attracted to group camps where they agree they are excellent and get a power up.
Those other camps are bad, very bad, less than us. Double power up.

I've been an outsider mostly forever.

I was a member of the Wilderness Society, they seemed to merge into the Green Party.

I like trees, rivers, wombats, kookaburras, the turtles that go plonk as I paddle by.

I've chosen to be insensitive to the needs of displaced people.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 05, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on September 05, 2018, 01:20:39 PM
Humans are attracted to group camps where they agree they are excellent and get a power up.
Those other camps are bad, very bad, less than us. Double power up.
Absolutely. Good old confirmation bias, this. "Everyone" is guilty of it, which is precisely why I do try to be generous towards the other camps for the purpose of this discussion, so as to try to keep it atheism-centric rather than a bloodbath of ideological viewpoints.

Quote
I've been an outsider mostly forever.

I was a member of the Wilderness Society, they seemed to merge into the Green Party.

I like trees, rivers, wombats, kookaburras, the turtles that go plonk as I paddle by.

I've chosen to be insensitive to the needs of displaced people.
That doesn't sound half-bad, actually. Still, I have to ask, outsider in respect to what? Or are you referring to outdoorsiness? As in, outside as opposed to inside a building or a city or the like?
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Bad Penny II on September 05, 2018, 01:54:47 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 05, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on September 05, 2018, 01:20:39 PM
Humans are attracted to group camps where they agree they are excellent and get a power up.
Those other camps are bad, very bad, less than us. Double power up.
Absolutely. Good old confirmation bias, this. "Everyone" is guilty of it, which is precisely why I do try to be generous towards the other camps for the purpose of this discussion, so as to try to keep it atheism-centric rather than a bloodbath of ideological viewpoints.

Quote
I've been an outsider mostly forever.

I was a member of the Wilderness Society, they seemed to merge into the Green Party.

I like trees, rivers, wombats, kookaburras, the turtles that go plonk as I paddle by.

I've chosen to be insensitive to the needs of displaced people.
That doesn't sound half-bad, actually. Still, I have to ask, outsider in respect to what? Or are you referring to outdoorsiness? As in, outside as opposed to inside a building or a city or the like?

Outside of normal humanness.

Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Dave on September 05, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
In that series in morals, linked below, there is discussion about tribalism - perhaps these groupings, and their labels, are a kind of neo-tribalism? Not a lot different from sports team fans, you are either in or out. Exclusionism is not a hew phenomena but has spread to invlude everything from the traditional social class and educational achievement (in terms of Oxbridge and Yalevard v Redbrick, Concrete and Online), to designer wear and being in the right clique at school and online etc.

But the social groupings may be getting smaller and more spread out. Immediate neighbours are less likely to be close friends than people a few miles away. We Haffers are all over the place and few of us can share a pint or a meal with other members without boarding an aircraft.

National movements do spring up, the teen drive (that attracted mature people as well) for more gun control is a good example, as is the Bkack Lives Matter in  a more specific case. A new one is the promotion of veterans for political positions, a possible back-lash after the Trump/McCain antipathy. They are very carefully treading an inclusive, non-partisan line. I can't but think that more, hopefully pragmatic and disciplined, veterans and fewer politicised lawyers in government might not be a bad thing!

Getting OT again.

Society is too complex to consider just a couple of narrow aspects - SJWs are necessary, as are many other sub-divisions and think-groups. It's stitching them all together for the benefit of all that is the stumbling block.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 05, 2018, 02:39:04 PM
Quote from: Dave on September 05, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
In that series in morals, linked below, there is discussion about tribalism - perhaps these groupings, and their labels, are a kind of neo-tribalism? Not a lot different from sports team fans, you are either in or out. Exclusionism is not a hew phenomena but has spread to invlude everything from the traditional social class and educational achievement (in terms of Oxbridge and Yalevard v Redbrick, Concrete and Online), to designer wear and being in the right clique at school and online etc.
Yes, there are clear elements of tribalism in this culture war. At times, the tribes overlap, which... May be pretty spectacular to behold. What I find worrying, is the often unspoken, but equally as often blatantly obvious (particularly on the intersectionalist-leaning side of the issue, but we have our examples too) demand for people to "tow the party line" in order to stay "in," even when doing so goes against their better judgement. This is not unique to our day and age, and it touches on why I'm not an ideologue; if my camp decides on something I find disagreeable, I will not tow the line "for party, chairman and the people."

QuoteBut the social groupings may be getting smaller and more spread out. Immediate neighbours are less likely to be close friends than people a few miles away. We Haffers are all over the place and few of us can share a pint or a meal with other members without boarding an aircraft.
I think in a way, this is the essence of individualism. Your social grouping is your own sweet self. From there, you can affiliate with people of every stripe and persuasion, based on your interests of the moment. Those people not necessarily being "on your block," however, does mean that going out for a pint may not be an option. I'm not sure if I find that regrettable - on some level, I suppose I do, but do the benefits of being so connected not out-weigh the drawbacks of fewer direct face to face interactions?

Quote
Society is too complex to consider just a couple of narrow aspects - SJWs are necessary, as are many other sub-divisions and think-groups. It's stitching them all together for the benefit of all that is the stumbling block.
I think I'll want to re-visit this topic in a different thread. It's interesting. I don't agree with "necessary," especially if applied to groups like SJWs, Antifa, BLM and the like, in the same sort of way that I don't think the Islamic State is necessary (Before any-one jumps on "Who you callin' a terrorist?!" wagon, note what I did and did not say ;) ) but I do think that they have their place in the current social tapestry, and shifting them out of there, with a vision of a future social tapestry without them, is meaningful to many.
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Icarus on September 11, 2018, 09:55:23 PM
Here is a different take on the matter,  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-muslim-detention-camp.html
Title: Re: Atheism and The Culture War: a perspective
Post by: Asmodean on September 12, 2018, 08:40:55 AM
It's not really the same matter, as we over in the Westâ„¢ do tend to fight over first-world, luxury sort of bullshit, while those people... Not so much.

I've read up on the goings-on, and it seems to be well in line with how China operates. While I find the practice distasteful, I have so little connection to that area and its people, that I can not "rule on it" one way or the other. Still, it's an interesting topic. There are some goings-on on the international stage, which I think are well-worth covering. I'll see if I can concoct an op-ed or two.