Church/State separation violated - why I really joined

[xSilverPhinx]

Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.

I have to disagree with you. A secular state means religion has no bearing on whether you are worthy of the rights of being a US citizen. Therefore, a representative of the government should not be implying that she needs to say "So help me God" in order to obtain citizenship. He may not have said it directly, but he strongly implied that she should do that in order to pass the exam. That, in my mind, is a violation, and one that should not be ignored. What if someone else asks to do the same thing to him and he succeeds in convincing them that they really need to leave that god line in there if they want to pass? Isn't that a violation?
I don't like conforming to the idea that this country is founded on Christian principles and that someone who holds public office has to be a believer, because it's not true. And we need to speak out when a government employee tries to say otherwise.
Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, and I mean no disrespect to how you feel. But I have strong feelings about this, as you can understand

I don't know what went on, I wasn't there, but if I misread I apologise. He implied that she had to be religious to pass the interview or that would count in her favour? ???

As for "so help me god", I have to agree with what Ecurb said, that it's more of a traditional vestige than anything. I would place it in the same category of other commonly used expressions such as "thank god" or "jeez" without much second thought, but I can only speak for myself. I don't feel like a hypocrite doing so, even though I'm an atheist.

What I meant to say is that a secular State can't determine whether religion should have any special bearing on these things and not a country where all offices are free of ignorant employees who might feel they should evangelise for whatever reason. But like I said, I could've misread the situation.

[Sandra Craft]

That won't do anything, it is nearly impossible to get fired from a government job.

Fired, no, but a Government employee can be disciplined in various ways, including shifted to a job (which will eventually be lower paying) where he doesn't deal with the public.  My concern about making it a big deal right away is that it can backfire, esp. with a public as religious as the American public is.  This could come off as "mean, hypersensitive atheists picking on tender-hearted Xtian who's merely concerned for a fellow human's immortal soul".  That sort of thing.  Since what's really wanted is the clerk to knock it off, I think the best way to handle that without blowback is thru the supervisor.

[Firebird]

Looks more like a major annoyance than a vioation of what a secular State stands for. If the fact of her being an atheist (or of any other religion) had barred her from gaining citizenship then that would've been in a whole different ball game.

I have to disagree with you. A secular state means religion has no bearing on whether you are worthy of the rights of being a US citizen. Therefore, a representative of the government should not be implying that she needs to say "So help me God" in order to obtain citizenship. He may not have said it directly, but he strongly implied that she should do that in order to pass the exam. That, in my mind, is a violation, and one that should not be ignored. What if someone else asks to do the same thing to him and he succeeds in convincing them that they really need to leave that god line in there if they want to pass? Isn't that a violation?
I don't like conforming to the idea that this country is founded on Christian principles and that someone who holds public office has to be a believer, because it's not true. And we need to speak out when a government employee tries to say otherwise.
Sorry, I know I'm ranting here, and I mean no disrespect to how you feel. But I have strong feelings about this, as you can understand

I don't know what went on, I wasn't there, but if I misread I apologise. He implied that she had to be religious to pass the interview or that would count in her favour? ???

As for "so help me god", I have to agree with what Ecurb said, that it's more of a traditional vestige than anything. I would place it in the same category of other commonly used expressions such as "thank god" or "jeez" without much second thought, but I can only speak for myself. I don't feel like a hypocrite doing so, even though I'm an atheist.

What I meant to say is that a secular State can't determine whether religion should have any special bearing on these things and not a country where all offices are free of ignorant employees who might feel they should evangelise for whatever reason. But like I said, I could've misread the situation.

No need to apologize. Like I said, one reason I posted about this was to gather reactions from all of you, and I completely respect your opinion. Just because I'm opinionated too doesn't mean I'm angry If I gave off that reaction, my apologies.
While I don't have an issue with people saying "thank god", "Bless you" etc. (hell, I still do that), I feel like the oath is a different matter. Separation of church and state is a big deal in my mind, and this being the official citizenship oath for the country crosses the line beyond my comfort level. And yes, I do feel the same way about the pledge of allegiance and our currency mentioning god.

[Sandra Craft]

While I don't have an issue with people saying "thank god", "Bless you" etc. (hell, I still do that), I feel like the oath is a different matter. Separation of church and state is a big deal in my mind, and this being the official citizenship oath for the country crosses the line beyond my comfort level. And yes, I do feel the same way about the pledge of allegiance and our currency mentioning god.

I know how you feel, it's the same way with me.  I can't even look at Xmas as a secular holiday -- to me it's religious -- and giving an oath in god's name would be several different levels of lie.  I couldn't do it and protecting our right not to is my #1 political hot button issue.

[Gawen]

Try the ACLU as well.

[Ateo]

 I know this was upsetting,  and cast a shadow on an otherwise happy event. It was an inappropriate response from a representative of the U.S. government. I couldn't help wondering what I would do in that situation, given that I am a staunch atheist.

I have been trying to learn to pick my fights, not waste bullets, make sure it's worth the battle, because there is always a price. It may be time, inconvenience, red tape or complete rejection.  Make sure it's worth it. What does this man and his thought mean to you? Nothing. What was the price he asked, virtually nothing, maybe four words.

Cross your fingers behind your back and say you swear to god.  Who cares. So you lied, your not going to hell. Tell the guy right after that your not religious, and he'll look at you with no expression and say "So". His work is done and everything went by the book.

This forum has already help me release pent up feelings, so when I encounter an ass and it doesn't matter, I'll give him a big smile and lie, without blinking. One little unimportant lie and you would have had zero problem, and no bad or emotional feelings, instead your writing about it now.

My thoughts? Pick your fights.

[Firebird]

Make sure it's worth it. What does this man and his thought mean to you? Nothing. What was the price he asked, virtually nothing, maybe four words.

That's a valid point, and I've gotten similar advice from some of my friends about this. Here's what I keep thinking about though: what if, later on, he does intimidate someone into saying the oath? What if, later on, he really does try to deny citizenship to someone based on their lack of belief? Or, even if it's not him, what if another employee in that office sees his behavior as having no consequences and thus feels he/she can do the same? Yes, I know this is all hypothetical and you can tie yourself in knots when trying to consider all the consequences of an action or lack thereof. Still, though, there's something to be said for speaking up now to prevent someone else from having to deal with this. And that may be worth it.

[Ateo]

"There's something to be said for speaking up now to prevent someone else from having to deal    with this. And that may be worth it."

Can't argue with what is right, good for you. I'll have to review my value system, I think I'll probably still pick my fights, some people and situations just aren't worth it to me.

[Sweetdeath]

I'm sorry this happened to you and your wife. It's good you stood up for YOUR RIGHTS though. Here on HAF, you can vent all you'd like. Stories like this are really interesting.
You had a lot of patience, especially when he rudely commented "but you seem so smart."
Yeah, she's smarter than you, because she doesn't believe in a higher power.

[Whitney]

Make sure it's worth it. What does this man and his thought mean to you? Nothing. What was the price he asked, virtually nothing, maybe four words.

That's a valid point, and I've gotten similar advice from some of my friends about this. Here's what I keep thinking about though: what if, later on, he does intimidate someone into saying the oath? What if, later on, he really does try to deny citizenship to someone based on their lack of belief? Or, even if it's not him, what if another employee in that office sees his behavior as having no consequences and thus feels he/she can do the same? Yes, I know this is all hypothetical and you can tie yourself in knots when trying to consider all the consequences of an action or lack thereof. Still, though, there's something to be said for speaking up now to prevent someone else from having to deal with this. And that may be worth it.

^Agree with this.  Those of us who are able to do so need to take a stand when issues like this come up in order to protect those who, for whatever reason, are unable to stand up for themselves.  That's the American way (right?) something that government employee needs to think about.   

If this had just been some idiot as some department store then it wouldn't matter...the issue is that he was representing our government while acting in such a horrible manner (and I'm not exaggerating....it is horrible for someone who is representing the US to violate the rights of citizens, and prospective citizens, to have their own views about religion without gov influence....there really isn't much value left in our government if freedom is weakened as that is the core foundation; and it's already being chipped at by various idiots in politics as it is).

[Guardian85]

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883

The poem written inside the Statue of Liberty. One of the best quotes I could think of for the occation. Can anyone see where it says:"but only if you're Christian!"?

....didn't think so.

[Sweetdeath]

Nice quote, Guardian. <3

[Guardian85]

See, I can be deep and reflective if I want to.

[Firebird]

So a little update on this (read the beginning of the thread for the full story). Though I insisted to my wife that we should complain about what happened on her citizenship test, she's been reluctant to do so, saying it won't make much difference. I also suspect she feels a little bad about getting the guy in trouble. We had another talk about this tonight while repeating the story to one of her friends, and I've made it clear that I disagree with her, but that I would respect her wishes if she really didn't want to complain.
Part of me feels like I should push her more, or just make the complaint myself to stand up for other agnostics/atheists. But I'm leaning against doing it, out of respect for her. I just hope this guy doesn't pull the same crap on someone else.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think there are ways of fighting for something and what you're get that as a consequence (no need really of going against your wife's wishes in this particular case). It's under the larger umbrella that is church/state separation - a question of choosing your battles and knowing some of the intended consequences.

Though while I understand that you would be pissed off by what happened, it seemed that the guy's supervisor didn't share the same opinion, the guy could be sued if he had rejected on the basis of religious affiliation. Religion is and should remain as powerless in such situations (not a situation that should be taken for granted).

Meh, the guy looks more clueless than ill-intentioned.