Atheism

[Ultima22689]

Just because one is Christian doesn't mean once concerns themself with bothering to go to church every week and practicing religion all the time. They didn't belong to any sect.  

No I was joking.  But for Christians to never mention religion - in 18 years?  Or however long you were at home - that's quite a feat!

As for the rest of the whole christianity culture being logical, no comment, i'm not opening up that can of worms, not in the mood in some drawn out debate about a subject that has been beaten to death.

I was talking really about Western culture and its Judeo-Christian origins, rather than christian culture.  But if you don't want to comment I couldn't possibly read anything into that.  To elaborate what I said: logic, rationality and reasoning are what western dominance of world cultures is about.  They derive from Judeo-Christian origins.  My hypothesis is that a house where children are given the freedom by Christian parents to decide for themselves what to think seems to me to be the final relinquishment by the culture of the essential personality of a deity, subject to the retention of the logic, rationality and reasoning base, but  only with the demotion of human emotions (fear, anger, grief).

A re-telling of your scenario with some human emotion added:-

Guy: The Earth is flat.
Me: Really? That's interesting, can you prove it?
Guy: No, I can't but i'm really sure.
Me: No empirical data at all?
Guy: Nope not a lick
Me:....goodbye
Guy:  Haven't you noticed that I just put a gun to your head
Me:...oops sorry, yes I see now the Earth is flat

Various manifestations of oops, sorry yes I see now the Earth is flat (ie I'm frightened to think differently) might be

Me: Yes I see I must study physics not philosophy because that would give me a better income  
Me: Yes I see I must not demonstrate against political injustices because the police might smash my head in
Me: Yes I will vote for a reformist party rather than a revolutionary party because the revolutionaries will destroy the economy

All simple logic, apparently

I don't get what is so hard to understand about that process, someone claims something, it may or may not be interesting, I ask for some form of empirical information proving their claim or at least giving said claim some clout, they produce none, I don't believe their claim, it's a simple as that. Someone walks up to me and tells me he has a million dollars in his suit case, I ask him to show me, he refuses, I deduce the man is probably lying. Come on, this is simple critical thinking, common sense, is that so hard to grasp?

So many of these scenarios seem to contain the word simple, simple, simple...

wow. Is that supposed to complicate the situation or something? Yeah, that's exactly what I would say because logic dictates I don't want my head to explode or the world to go to shit and I might want to do better in life,  so what was the point of that? Once again, i'm not interested in the culture talk, i'll pass.

[Existentialist]

...Are you serious?

Stop stalling.  Answer the question.  You may repeat something you already said, but every question is genuine and legitimate.  And it sounds from what you're saying like there are no circumstances in which you would allow your emotions to over-ride a logical process.  I think life is nowhere near that simple.  We are presented every day with decisions that cause us fear, anger and grief.  To respond to even a fraction of them with a thought-out rational process would take all year.

[Ultima22689]

You seem to not understand what logic and rational thinking are.

Logic is a very powerful, and necessary, tool, but does not have the answer to every question. The rest of the questions can be answered with rational thinking, which may point to emotions or opinions if necessary.

How does rational thinking help you decide whether fight or flee from your enemy?  And bear in mind I don't do simple.

...Are you serious?

I think we're being trolled now.

Existentalist, you are getting simple because this is a very simple concept.

[LegendarySandwich]

...Are you serious?

Stop stalling.  Answer the question.  You may repeat something you already said, but every question is genuine and legitimate.  And it sounds from what you're saying like there are no circumstances in which you would allow your emotions to over-ride a logical process.  I think life is nowhere near that simple.  We are presented every day with decisions that cause us fear, anger and grief.  To respond to even a fraction of them with a thought-out rational process would take all year.

How won't rational thinking help you decide whether to run or flee? You take a look at the circumstances, weigh the possible outcomes, possibly talk it over with others, and then act.

And yes, of course we're not always rational or logical. We're human. We've evolved to make quick, split-second decisions. Does that mean that we shouldn't be logical or rational? Of course not.

[Existentialist]

wow. Is that supposed to complicate the situation or something? Yeah, that's exactly what I would say because logic dictates I don't want my head to explode or the world to go to shit and I might want to do better in life,  so what was the point of that? Once again, i'm not interested in the culture talk, i'll pass.

It only complicates it a bit.  But we're faced with hundreds of decisions all the time that are like that - a mixture of evidence, intimidation, self-preservation, anger, loss - so yes I think your scenario is far too simple.  And the scenario was the easiest bit of my post to answer, sorry you keep deciding to avoid the cultural issues I raised, particularly the way I think we're already taught to value logic over emotion as part of our Judeo-Christian education.  The cultural issues are really what this thread are all about, so if you ever feel like coming back to it, please feel free.

[LegendarySandwich]

...particularly the way I think we're already taught to value logic over emotion as part of our Judeo-Christian education.

Whoa, wait a second. Taught to value logic over emotion? Really? You sure as hell didn't use logic to come to Christianity.

[Recusant]

I was talking really about Western culture and its Judeo-Christian origins, rather than christian culture. But if you don't want to comment I couldn't possibly read anything into that. To elaborate what I said: logic, rationality and reasoning are what western dominance of world cultures is about. They derive from Judeo-Christian origins.

It seemed that you were hinting at this in an earlier post, and now you've come out and said it.

How do you arrive at the conclusion that logic, rationality and reasoning derive from Judeo-Christian origins?  Historically, I think that we should give credit where it's due, and the credit for contributing these elements of western culture should rightfully belong to the pagan Greeks.  The Jews really didn't excel at logic, rationality or reasoning until they'd come into contact with Hellenic culture.  The Romans had adopted the Greek approach well before Christianity came to dominate the Roman world.  Christians merely took up those intellectual tools because they were already available when Christianity arose.  If you want to argue that we have Jews or Christians to thank for producing these ways of thinking, then I'd like to see some evidence that they actually did so, rather than the Greeks, who were practicing logic, rationality and reasoning while the Jews were still following the absurd dictates of their scripture, and well before Christianity even existed.

[Ultima22689]

wow. Is that supposed to complicate the situation or something? Yeah, that's exactly what I would say because logic dictates I don't want my head to explode or the world to go to shit and I might want to do better in life,  so what was the point of that? Once again, i'm not interested in the culture talk, i'll pass.

It only complicates it a bit.  But we're faced with hundreds of decisions all the time that are like that - a mixture of evidence, intimidation, self-preservation, anger, loss - so yes I think your scenario is far too simple.  And the scenario was the easiest bit of my post to answer, sorry you keep deciding to avoid the cultural issues I raised, particularly the way I think we're already taught to value logic over emotion as part of our Judeo-Christian education.  The cultural issues are really what this thread are all about, so if you ever feel like coming back to it, please feel free.

As I said to Legendary Sandwich, of course things aren't that simple we're faced with far more complex situations than the above every day.

Avoiding the issue is blatantly ignoring it or playing intellectual gymnastics, I told you plain and simple, I do not care to talk about it, take your snide comments and shove them.

[Existentialist]

How do you arrive at the conclusion that logic, rationality and reasoning derive from Judeo-Christian origins?  Historically, I think that we should give credit where it's due, and the credit for contributing these elements of western culture should rightfully belong to the pagan Greeks.  The Jews really didn't excel at logic, rationality or reasoning until they'd come into contact with Hellenic culture.  The Romans had adopted the Greek approach well before Christianity came to dominate the Roman world.  Christians merely took up those intellectual tools because they were already available when Christianity arose.  If you want to argue that we have Jews or Christians to thank for producing these ways of thinking, then I'd like to see some evidence that they actually did so, rather than the Greeks, who were practicing logic, rationality and reasoning while the Jews were still following the absurd dictates of their scripture, and well before Christianity even existed.

I apologise.  I tend to use the Judeo-Christian label as a lazy shorthand for Christian-Roman imperialism, adopted since its invention as the model for authoritarian state structures and indoctrination.  Your history is correct.

[Existentialist]

Whoa, wait a second. Taught to value logic over emotion? Really? You sure as hell didn't use logic to come to Christianity.

Yes, really.  But to be honest, I don't understand what you mean by 'come to' Christianity.

[LegendarySandwich]

Whoa, wait a second. Taught to value logic over emotion? Really? You sure as hell didn't use logic to come to Christianity.

Yes, really.  But to be honest, I don't understand what you mean by 'come to' Christianity.

I mean become part of the religion.

[Existentialist]

Whoa, wait a second. Taught to value logic over emotion? Really? You sure as hell didn't use logic to come to Christianity.

Yes, really.  But to be honest, I don't understand what you mean by 'come to' Christianity.

I mean become part of the religion.

I'm an atheist.

[LegendarySandwich]

I'm an atheist.

Ah, sorry for the confusion. When I said "you", I meant in the general sense, not specifically referring to you. That was horrible wording.

[Existentialist]

I'm an atheist.

Ah, sorry for the confusion. When I said "you", I meant in the general sense, not specifically referring to you. That was horrible wording.

No problem.   Glad I've survived the conversation with my atheism intact.  Off to bed now...

[Kylyssa]

I'm an atheist.

Ah, sorry for the confusion. When I said "you", I meant in the general sense, not specifically referring to you. That was horrible wording.

The impersonal "you."  Ah, how I both love and hate it.