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The Biggest Lie...

Started by Dragonia, February 03, 2018, 04:35:44 AM

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Dragonia

^^^ I understand that, Icarus. I have a couple Bibles that I can not get rid of, despite how I feel about that book. One was from my mom when I got married, one was from my grandmother, and one was, at one time, my study Bible, with markings and notes and highlights all over it.
All 3 have different kinds of sentimental value.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Recusant

#16
To me, it's laughable that Chan refers to the story of YHVH murdering almost all of humanity in Noah's flood as justification for his bullshit. The supposed all-powerful creator apparently chose to cause the death of millions, but it was humanity that was guilty. This shows that people are bad? That is some genuine Christian thinking. "Our God is all good, and if he's a mass murderer, then that proves that his victims were evil."  :wtf: :rofl:
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


jumbojak

I agree with him on his first point. Not the second though.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz

Dragonia

^^^ I respect your belief that no one is really good. I know people who have had a pretty dim view of humanity's basic nature, and I can see where that comes from.
Where it starts to become a problem for me is when children are getting taught this concept.  That they are bad and deserve punishment, just because they exist. Or a person in a vulnerable state is told that they are inherently evil and nothing can be good without God.  These scenarios infuriate me.
How can a child grow up to strive to be bold and brave and courageous and creative and a "good person" if they are told that it's hopeless and they suck, unless they enlist the help of some God.....who then ceases to actually help.
It doesn't help that I have massive emotional problems with this concept, in addition to the philosophical and intellectual problems with it. I look at my sister and how this has affected her whole life. I wish I could know how her life would have been if she had ever been told that she was good and that someone believed in her as a person.
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Dave

It is imposdible to be 100% good, whatever your beliefs, but kids certainly need to understand the linits. Any person who vlaims thst they are 10o% are either deluding themselves or suffering a psychotic condition methinks.

Degree, nuance, purpose are all modifiers and qualifiers in "doing bad", the severely impoverished mother who tells her small child, "You eat it all, I'm not hungry," is telling a lie. I might break the rules of the road to get an injured person to hospital, but only so far and will willingly submit to the law should I get caught on a camera or something.

Bad deeds usually have a penalty to the fully sane person, maybe not the socio- or psychpath. If the "crime" is morally worth the penalty I will commit it. I do not need a priest of any kind to tell me where I went wrong. In the days before a good secular education was available in most cultures, when speaking out of turn could get you killed, religion was a good tool to keep the unwashed masses under control by laws and threats. Or incite them to burn the heretic or kill the godless enemy. Even when he worshipped the same god.

Now we need a new set of "rules", a new education, that at least makes sure people know the potential results of online bullying etc. Pity, in some ways that  some of the old psychological classroom "games" are now considered unethical. There was one where the kids had to pick a ribbon of one of two colours - enough ties combined for the whole class split 50:50ish, and wear it somehow. Say red and green. On the toss of a coin the one group were allowed to ridicule the other, who were not allowed to fight back in any way. Next day the roles were reversed. In the '50s report of this I seem to remeber that bullying was reduced in that grade and discussion on "Right and Wrong" went up a level or two in insight.

After a mother was allowed to communicate with some Internet bullies who drove her son to suicide they mostly said, "We didn't mean it, didn't know he would do that." Wonder what they think now, are they consumed with self-destroying guilt or will that unhappy event be used to "educate" them via their own insight? We were not told on the radio. If any still think it was a valid behaviour, no matter how gawky or geeky the victim, they seriously need treatment.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

jumbojak

My dim view of humanity's basic nature comes from a deeper understanding of my own nature and my experience of dealing with others. To say that people are not "good" isn't necessarily a slight on them. It also doesn't mean that I have, or that anyone else should have, a general dislike of people. There are plenty of people I wouldn't mourn but there are also others who's company I enjoy. A very few others but they do exist.

There is also an element of understanding that in order to do what I would consider to be good I would have to also do what I might consider to be great evil. Honestly, the dichotomy is torturous if I let myself dwell on the thought. I suppose that many others have felt the same way and acted to bring their view of a good world into being.

Whether through personal squeamishness or a lack of commitment I can't act in that way. I keep myself as busy as I can and try not to think about it. Who knows, I may change my views - anyone who has been here long enough to remember when I first joined HAF can tell that I already have once - and be able to carry on like I suppose most people do.

For now though I'll stick to staying busy. You don't need God to be good because you can never, really, be good. Just varying shades of grey.

"Amazing what chimney sweeping can teach us, no? Keep your fire hot and
your flue clean."  - Ecurb Noselrub

"I'd be incensed by your impudence were I not so impressed by your memory." - Siz