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Community => Parenting Beyond Belief => Topic started by: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM

Title: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
<deleted
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 10, 2017, 11:36:39 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Add to that all these multiple "genders" they've cooked up in their heads.  I'm too old to follow the sort of nonsense they cook up and it's all a bit confusing.  They can have all the genders they want I guess, but in reality there are only 2 sexes.

:eyebrow: Is gender identity the same thing as biological sex?

QuoteThey can go chopping off or adding whatever parts and injecting hormones and all that, but the thing's DNA is either a male or female (yes there are birth defects that make it look likes it's a bit of both, but does it produce babies or does it produce sperm?  Do any of these "hermaphrodite" humans self-fertilize themselves?  do they produce viable sperms? or do they conceive and birth a child?

It's way more complex than you paint it, and it isn't down to just what chromosomes the individual has. 

For instance:

People with 5 alpha-Reductase deficiency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5%CE%B1-Reductase_deficiency) cannot produce dihydrotestosterone from testosterone. Androgen receptors are more sensitive to dihydrotestosterone than testosterone and people with this condition are known to be raised female only to grow a penis at the start of puberty, around the age of 12. Surprise!

Speaking of androgens, there is also the androgen insensitivity syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome), in which individuals are genetically male (XY) but cells that are responsible for the development of male characteristics do not respond to male hormones, and so have underdeveloped genitalia and possibly a female gender identity.

Ever hear of XX male syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome)? It's when an X contains a sex-determining region Y (SRY) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testis-determining_factor). SRYs are found in most Y chromosomes and favour the development of male characteristics.

Those are the few that I can think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.

Personally, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell someone what their gender identity is. It's insulting and insinuates that you know more about their mental and physiological state than they do.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: No one on December 10, 2017, 11:52:13 PM
Now now Argentium, it's always the ill-informed's place to blather on and tell others just how wrong they truly are.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2017, 12:02:54 AM
Quote from: No one on December 10, 2017, 11:52:13 PM
Now now Argentium, it's always the ill-informed's place to blather on and tell others just how wrong they truly are.

Ignorance must be countered!  :blahblah:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:13:22 AM


I'm sure the range of anomalies and birth defects are beyond what I can fathom.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 11, 2017, 12:15:08 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:13:22 AMSo the main question is about sex reassignment surgery and hormone injections for children...

How common is this?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:21:31 AM


I have no idea of the numbers.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2017, 12:22:46 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:13:22 AM
I'm sure the range of anomalies and birth defects are beyond what I can fathom.  Those with these defects are still a teeny tiny tiny minority.  Maybe they don't consider themselves defective, but the science def does tell us that they are anomalies with birth defects.  If they aren't fit to reproduce they'd naturally be removed from the gene pool.

So the main question is about sex reassignment surgery and hormone injections for children...

Again, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell someone what their gender identity is.

(Just an FYI, some XX men can have 'normal' lives and children, though most likely they'd be all daughters.)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:29:42 AM


Yes, but I just mentioned the main issue, and you totally ignored it.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2017, 12:35:12 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:29:42 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 11, 2017, 12:22:46 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:13:22 AM
I'm sure the range of anomalies and birth defects are beyond what I can fathom.  Those with these defects are still a teeny tiny tiny minority.  Maybe they don't consider themselves defective, but the science def does tell us that they are anomalies with birth defects.  If they aren't fit to reproduce they'd naturally be removed from the gene pool.

So the main question is about sex reassignment surgery and hormone injections for children...

Again, I don't think it's anyone's place to tell someone what their gender identity is.

(Just an FYI, some XX men can have 'normal' lives and children, though most likely they'd be all daughters.)

Yes, but I just mentioned the main issue, and you totally ignored it.  So again, the main question is about sex reassignment surgery and hormone injections for children and whether it's ethical ...

I'm not ignoring it. Like I said:

QuoteI don't think it's anyone's place to tell someone what their gender identity is.

I assumed you would take it to one of its conclusions.

If someone wants to undergo gender reassignment, then why impede it? Because you think it's "quite insane"?
A child might save themselves a lot of confusion and pain if allowed do it. Though, I think at which age would depend on their condition.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 11, 2017, 12:54:01 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:21:31 AM
Quote from: Recusant on December 11, 2017, 12:15:08 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:13:22 AMSo the main question is about sex reassignment surgery and hormone injections for children...

How common is this?

I have no idea of the numbers.  All I know is it seems to be legal (at least in some states), and it does happen

To me it sounds as if you've adopted a politicized approach to it, but I could be wrong. It would be good if you shared a link to a reputable source supporting your conclusion about the people you said are "unfit parents."  I don't think any parent or doctor takes this lightly, or does it on a whim. In this article (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sex-change-treatment-for-kids-on-the-rise/), the cautious approach taken by the gender identity clinic at Children's Hospital Boston is described, in which puberty-delaying drugs are given to children who are patients.

QuoteThe idea is to give these children time to mature emotionally and make sure they want to proceed with a permanent sex change. Only 1 of the 97 opted out of permanent treatment, Spack [director of the clinic] said.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 11, 2017, 01:17:55 AM
There's also this from NBC:  New Guidelines for Treating Transgender Kids Considered (https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Transgender-Kids-Eligible-for-Earlier-Medical-Intervention-Under-New-Guidelines-423082734.html)

I got that in less than one minute on Google and really, AoD, you could have done that yourself.

Altho I consider being transgendered a harmless eccentricity that's none of my, or anyone else's, business I will admit to being uncomfortable with a minor getting such treatment.  I can see how, if they're right about being transgendered, the treatment will make things a lot easier for them as adults, but what if they're wrong or change their mind about it?  That's going to turn into a major screw-up.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Dave on December 11, 2017, 07:33:22 AM
Quote from: Recusant on December 11, 2017, 12:15:08 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 12:13:22 AMSo the main question is about sex reassignment surgery and hormone injections for children...

How common is this?

This may be the picture in the UK.

QuoteOfficial figures from the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock Centre in London show that 2,016 children were referred to them in 2016-17.

That's about 39 kids a week over the course of the year.

But the Mirror says it has seen data that shows 1,302 children have visited GIDS in the last six months – which works out at about 50 children a week.

We don't know yet whether that high referral rate will continue for the rest of the year. If it does, it will mean that the number of children referred to GIDS each week has risen by 2,500 per cent since 2009-10.This nsy, posdinly, be the picture in the UK:

Official figures from the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the Tavistock Centre in London show that 2,016 children were referred to them in 2016-17.

That's about 39 kids a week over the course of the year.

But the Mirror says it has seen data that shows 1,302 children have visited GIDS in the last six months – which works out at about 50 children a week.

We don't know yet whether that high referral rate will continue for the rest of the year. If it does, it will mean that the number of children referred to GIDS each week has risen by 2,500 per cent since 2009-10.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-how-many-children-are-going-to-gender-identity-clinics-in-the-uk
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Biggus Dickus on December 11, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Someone in another forum somewhere was pointing out some ironies about how they "gov't policies" are allowing children to undergo surgical and hormonal sexual modification, because the child identifies itself as the sex that it is not, but by the same standard children cannot consent to sex.  So they can undergo quite extreme surgeries to modify their genitalia and hormone therapy which can also be quite extreme, and permanant, especially in developing children.  From what I understand, far left policy in the US is allowing this to happen legally. 

There was a cover on the national geographic a couple years back that was a transsexual little boy, or girl? Anyway it was a male to female "transgendered" child.  I did a little background research on that cover, and came to the conclusion that that child's parents were really not fit parents, and had shaped the little boy to become a transsexual from a very young age.

So anyway, children cannot consent to sex (which i agree with) but according to far left logic it is ok for them to consent to extreme surgical genital body modification along with hormonal body modification.  What do you all think of this sort of thing?  I think the far-left (or whatever the hell they are) has gone totally nutty in promoting this kind of thing.  Add to that all these multiple "genders" they've cooked up in their heads.  I'm too old to follow the sort of nonsense they cook up and it's all a bit confusing.  They can have all the genders they want I guess, but in reality there are only 2 sexes.  They can go chopping off or adding whatever parts and injecting hormones and all that, but the thing's DNA is either a male or female (yes there are birth defects that make it look likes it's a bit of both, but does it produce babies or does it produce sperm?  Do any of these "hermaphrodite" humans self-fertilize themselves?  do they produce viable sperms? or do they conceive and birth a child?

Ok, I got off track a bit.  The question is basically what do y'all think of people trying to turn little boys into little girls and vice versa?  Is this something the parents and child should be allowed to decide?  You think if some 8 years old boy decides that one day he's a girl that the parents should be able to take him to the doctor and get all the male anatomy cut off, and try to surgically construct a "false vagina", and then get him on the estrogen shots?  I think I'm gettin too old for this world.  All seems quite insane.

Thoughts?

In another thread you posted a story about "Virtuous Pedophiles", in this thread you again mention " Children, consent, and sex"....maybe it's just me, and if so I'll go, but alarm bells have been going off in my head for the past couple days.

You seem to have a possible obsession with children and sex.

Am I the only one seeing this?

This thread and especially the "Virtual Fucking Pedophile" thread are making me extremely uncomfortable.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Pasta Chick on December 11, 2017, 01:49:22 PM
Putting transgender in quotes and adding "ed" are fucking gross.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 11, 2017, 02:11:35 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on December 11, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Someone in another forum somewhere was pointing out some ironies about how they "gov't policies" are allowing children to undergo surgical and hormonal sexual modification, because the child identifies itself as the sex that it is not, but by the same standard children cannot consent to sex.  So they can undergo quite extreme surgeries to modify their genitalia and hormone therapy which can also be quite extreme, and permanant, especially in developing children.  From what I understand, far left policy in the US is allowing this to happen legally. 

There was a cover on the national geographic a couple years back that was a transsexual little boy, or girl? Anyway it was a male to female "transgendered" child.  I did a little background research on that cover, and came to the conclusion that that child's parents were really not fit parents, and had shaped the little boy to become a transsexual from a very young age.

So anyway, children cannot consent to sex (which i agree with) but according to far left logic it is ok for them to consent to extreme surgical genital body modification along with hormonal body modification.  What do you all think of this sort of thing?  I think the far-left (or whatever the hell they are) has gone totally nutty in promoting this kind of thing.  Add to that all these multiple "genders" they've cooked up in their heads.  I'm too old to follow the sort of nonsense they cook up and it's all a bit confusing.  They can have all the genders they want I guess, but in reality there are only 2 sexes.  They can go chopping off or adding whatever parts and injecting hormones and all that, but the thing's DNA is either a male or female (yes there are birth defects that make it look likes it's a bit of both, but does it produce babies or does it produce sperm?  Do any of these "hermaphrodite" humans self-fertilize themselves?  do they produce viable sperms? or do they conceive and birth a child?

Ok, I got off track a bit.  The question is basically what do y'all think of people trying to turn little boys into little girls and vice versa?  Is this something the parents and child should be allowed to decide?  You think if some 8 years old boy decides that one day he's a girl that the parents should be able to take him to the doctor and get all the male anatomy cut off, and try to surgically construct a "false vagina", and then get him on the estrogen shots?  I think I'm gettin too old for this world.  All seems quite insane.

Thoughts?

In another thread you posted a story about "Virtuous Pedophiles", in this thread you again mention " Children, consent, and sex"....maybe it's just me, and if so I'll go, but alarm bells have been going off in my head for the past couple days.

You seem to have a possible obsession with children and sex.

Am I the only one seeing this?

This thread and especially the "Virtual Fucking Pedophile" thread are making me extremely uncomfortable.

They have been uncomfortable topics. What's next, child pornography and how it's been helping the pedophile comunity stay virtuous and not become a child molester?
:picard facepalm:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Dragonia on December 11, 2017, 06:46:32 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Ok, I got off track a bit.  The question is basically what do y'all think of people trying to turn little boys into little girls and vice versa?  Is this something the parents and child should be allowed to decide?  You think if some 8 years old boy decides that one day he's a girl that the parents should be able to take him to the doctor and get all the male anatomy cut off, and try to surgically construct a "false vagina", and then get him on the estrogen shots?  I think I'm gettin too old for this world.  All seems quite insane.

Thoughts?
Here are my thoughts.  I come at this subject from an empathetic, compassionate place, rather than a scientific one. I'm sure both sides are needed to balance each other out, but I'm just better at this side.
While it's true that these are still children, a child's feelings are still real. So I think i would fully support giving these children medication to postpone puberty. These seem safe and I read that puberty will continue normally once the med. is discontinued. While that alone might be awkward, as their peers develop before them, it could dramatically reduce the trauma of developing into a person that they don't recognize and don't "feel" like, and haven't presented themselves to the public as.
Then, along with the child's parents and a therapist, they could all decide when it's time to pursue surgical options. When the child has mentally matured for a few years.
I do not think it's right to be performing reassignment surgeries on eight-year-old children, when they still are truly children in every sense of the word.
I read only one article about this, and I don't know how reputable the website is, but here: https://www.thedailybeast.com/can-delaying-puberty-help-transgender-kids
Quote"Children who meet the mental health criteria for gender dysphoria in adolescence are likely to be transgender for life." In a recent studyof 70 participants all the adolescents who had been given puberty blockers went through with sex reassignment.
That seems like an awfully large percentage of kids who were serious about the whole thing, who knew their minds and their feelings. And finances, or some other factor, rather than changed minds, may have been to blame for the other 30% who didn't go through with the surgeries.
I am a pretty big believer in allowing people to be truly who they are, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 10:45:18 PM


Why is it making you extremely uncomfortable?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 10:47:16 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on December 11, 2017, 01:49:22 PM
Putting transgender in quotes and adding "ed" are fucking gross.

why do you think that?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 11, 2017, 11:01:37 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on December 11, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Someone in another forum somewhere was pointing out some ironies about how they "gov't policies" are allowing children to undergo surgical and hormonal sexual modification, because the child identifies itself as the sex that it is not, but by the same standard children cannot consent to sex.  So they can undergo quite extreme surgeries to modify their genitalia and hormone therapy which can also be quite extreme, and permanant, especially in developing children.  From what I understand, far left policy in the US is allowing this to happen legally. 

There was a cover on the national geographic a couple years back that was a transsexual little boy, or girl? Anyway it was a male to female "transgendered" child.  I did a little background research on that cover, and came to the conclusion that that child's parents were really not fit parents, and had shaped the little boy to become a transsexual from a very young age.

So anyway, children cannot consent to sex (which i agree with) but according to far left logic it is ok for them to consent to extreme surgical genital body modification along with hormonal body modification.  What do you all think of this sort of thing?  I think the far-left (or whatever the hell they are) has gone totally nutty in promoting this kind of thing.  Add to that all these multiple "genders" they've cooked up in their heads.  I'm too old to follow the sort of nonsense they cook up and it's all a bit confusing.  They can have all the genders they want I guess, but in reality there are only 2 sexes.  They can go chopping off or adding whatever parts and injecting hormones and all that, but the thing's DNA is either a male or female (yes there are birth defects that make it look likes it's a bit of both, but does it produce babies or does it produce sperm?  Do any of these "hermaphrodite" humans self-fertilize themselves?  do they produce viable sperms? or do they conceive and birth a child?

Ok, I got off track a bit.  The question is basically what do y'all think of people trying to turn little boys into little girls and vice versa?  Is this something the parents and child should be allowed to decide?  You think if some 8 years old boy decides that one day he's a girl that the parents should be able to take him to the doctor and get all the male anatomy cut off, and try to surgically construct a "false vagina", and then get him on the estrogen shots?  I think I'm gettin too old for this world.  All seems quite insane.

Thoughts?

In another thread you posted a story about "Virtuous Pedophiles", in this thread you again mention " Children, consent, and sex"....maybe it's just me, and if so I'll go, but alarm bells have been going off in my head for the past couple days.

You seem to have a possible obsession with children and sex.

Am I the only one seeing this?

This thread and especially the "Virtual Fucking Pedophile" thread are making me extremely uncomfortable.

Why is it making you extremely uncomfortable?

I'm sorry for interrupting, but I think Bruno already answered this.  :unsure:

QuoteYou seem to have a possible obsession with children and sex.

Take me, for example, I'm constantly posting rap music videos, No one gave a nickname, I think it's, "Raps 24/7." --Long story.  ::)

You have to admit, AngelOfDeath, these are "uncomfortable topics," and yet, we've answered your questions. One time is fine, but two or three times, --That's just focusing too much on the subject...the same way I focus too much on rap music...maybe.  :shifty:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 11:29:07 PM


if it is posted it won't be from me
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 11, 2017, 11:31:11 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 11, 2017, 02:11:35 PM

They have been uncomfortable topics. What's next, child pornography and how it's been helping the pedophile comunity stay virtuous and not become a child molester?
:picard facepalm:

if it is posted it won't be from me

That's good to know.  :)

I, on the other hand, will probably continue to post rap music videos...Sorry, No one.  :grin:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 11, 2017, 11:39:34 PM
OK, to be fair, I didn't know there was a very small difference between a pedophile and a child molester. I learned that thanks to talking about the topic, here.

I think what makes it uncomfortable is that maybe there are adults here who are survivors/victims of sexual molestation, some of us are parents, some probably have a child that has been sexually molested, etc., etc. This is not a pleasant conversation. Like I said, we can touch the subject one time, but to want to talk about it, over and over again, it's just painful to some. I hope you can understand that, AngelOfDeath.

We do not circumcise our children, or talk about a child's genitalia, or a child's sexual modification, I don't think anyone has ever brought up the topic.  :notsure:  --That's all.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 11:42:59 PM


he stated his discomfort with the topic but I don't think he answered as to why?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 11, 2017, 11:46:21 PM
^^^^
I think I just answered that.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 11:59:12 PM

well, this post made before that other post. 
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 12:05:07 AM
 the short story is that those parents were die-hard advocates since before that child was born.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 12, 2017, 12:31:01 AM
OK, "too lazy" then. I'm not too lazy. According to this article (https://www.glaad.org/blog/advocate-debi-jacksons-transgender-7-year-old-avery-shares-her-story), the girl's mother Debi Jackson became an advocate of transgender rights due to her experience with her child. Her father Tom Jackson wrote a piece for The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/storywall/transgender-today/stories/avery-aj-jackson) about his family's experience. There is no indication that he was a transgender advocate before his child was born.

QuoteMy name is Tom. I am a husband, a father, and most of all, I try to be a decent human being. I only make the last statement because recently there have been people that have directed vile and hateful comments toward my family.

At 4 years old, my child revealed her true self by stating very clearly and articulately "I am really a girl, I am a girl on the inside." This statement altered my life forever and is something I would not change for the world. Looking back now, the signs in the year before her declaration were clear. A child who was happy and carefree began to be angry, depressed, and was acting out. Once our daughter had the words to express who she was in her heart and her brain, we began to seek help from medical experts.

We took her to see her pediatrician, a child psychologist, and a gender therapist. Our child was diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, and we were told that allowing her to socially transition to live as a girl was the proper "treatment." At that point my wife and I poured over every bit of information we could find about transgender children. The information was sparse, but what we did find was very disturbing. Over 50% of transgender children try to commit suicide by their mid to late teenage years. A large number of them succeed. And the main reason that these children state that they try to harm themselves is the lack of love and support of their family and friends. My wife and I decided that we would much rather have a happy, healthy daughter than a dead son. . . .

I looked at several stories about the family and haven't found anything supporting the assertion that the parents "were die-hard transsexual/transgender advocates since before that child was born." They have an older child, a son. It appears that he's just a regular boy.

I don't doubt you read something that promoted the idea that the parents coerced their child in some way, or otherwise managed to cast them in a bad light. Unless you can cite it and it proves to be a reputable source per my request, I'm inclined to believe it was religiously motivated propaganda.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 12, 2017, 12:55:36 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 11:59:12 PM
...(because psychiatriasts are the "experts").

And

QuoteIn my view it's a mental illness brought on and encouraged by an unhealthy society.

What are your qualifications?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 12, 2017, 02:52:32 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 10:47:16 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on December 11, 2017, 01:49:22 PM
Putting transgender in quotes and adding "ed" are fucking gross.

why do you think that?

My guess is that putting transgender in quotes implies that it's not real.  Imagine Christian, heterosexual or male in quotes.

As for adding "ed" (which I did not know was no longer done) this article from Time has an explanation:  Why it's best to avoid the word transgendered (http://time.com/3630965/transgender-transgendered/)

(again, this took me literally less than one minute of googling)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 03:40:33 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 12:05:07 AM
Well, I'm too lazy...
I was just thinking, if I ever get an Angel Of Death assigned to me, I would want him/her to be very lazy, as well.  :notsure:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 12, 2017, 04:33:08 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 03:40:33 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 12:05:07 AM
Well, I'm too lazy...
I was just thinking, if I ever get an Angel Of Death assigned to me, I would want him/her to be very lazy, as well.  :notsure:

Asleep at the wheel can be a good quality in Death.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:13:10 AM


Oh yea, don't we all? 
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: No one on December 12, 2017, 05:19:59 AM
Well, death doesn't want me, nothing does.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM


it's possible i got this info from a noncredible  source, but i won't dismiss it until i've dug into it a bit more

Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:27:21 AM
Quote from: No one on December 12, 2017, 05:19:59 AM
Well, death doesn't want me, nothing does.

it will want you one day and it will take you
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:43:04 AM


I just wonder if folks who react like this maybe have a history of past abuse.  I never been thru it myself but i can imagine it leaves a lot of damage to a person.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 06:05:42 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:13:10 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 03:40:33 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 12:05:07 AM
Well, I'm too lazy...
I was just thinking, if I ever get an Angel Of Death assigned to me, I would want him/her to be very lazy, as well.  :notsure:

Oh yea, don't we all?  But even if our own personal Angel Of Death is lazy and procrastinates, he's gonna get around to the job eventually.  Never fails.  :)

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:27:21 AM
Quote from: No one on December 12, 2017, 05:19:59 AM
Well, death doesn't want me, nothing does.

it will want you one day and it will take you

Oh, AngelOfDeath... :smileshake:

~You are such a ray of sunshine, aren't you?  ;D
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 06:12:51 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 12, 2017, 04:33:08 AM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 03:40:33 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 12:05:07 AM
Well, I'm too lazy...
I was just thinking, if I ever get an Angel Of Death assigned to me, I would want him/her to be very lazy, as well.  :notsure:

Asleep at the wheel can be a good quality in Death.

(https://i.imgur.com/NhiV3Ho.gif)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Biggus Dickus on December 12, 2017, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 11, 2017, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on December 11, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Someone in another forum somewhere was pointing out some ironies about how they "gov't policies" are allowing children to undergo surgical and hormonal sexual modification, because the child identifies itself as the sex that it is not, but by the same standard children cannot consent to sex.  So they can undergo quite extreme surgeries to modify their genitalia and hormone therapy which can also be quite extreme, and permanant, especially in developing children.  From what I understand, far left policy in the US is allowing this to happen legally. 

There was a cover on the national geographic a couple years back that was a transsexual little boy, or girl? Anyway it was a male to female "transgendered" child.  I did a little background research on that cover, and came to the conclusion that that child's parents were really not fit parents, and had shaped the little boy to become a transsexual from a very young age.

So anyway, children cannot consent to sex (which i agree with) but according to far left logic it is ok for them to consent to extreme surgical genital body modification along with hormonal body modification.  What do you all think of this sort of thing?  I think the far-left (or whatever the hell they are) has gone totally nutty in promoting this kind of thing.  Add to that all these multiple "genders" they've cooked up in their heads.  I'm too old to follow the sort of nonsense they cook up and it's all a bit confusing.  They can have all the genders they want I guess, but in reality there are only 2 sexes.  They can go chopping off or adding whatever parts and injecting hormones and all that, but the thing's DNA is either a male or female (yes there are birth defects that make it look likes it's a bit of both, but does it produce babies or does it produce sperm?  Do any of these "hermaphrodite" humans self-fertilize themselves?  do they produce viable sperms? or do they conceive and birth a child?

Ok, I got off track a bit.  The question is basically what do y'all think of people trying to turn little boys into little girls and vice versa?  Is this something the parents and child should be allowed to decide?  You think if some 8 years old boy decides that one day he's a girl that the parents should be able to take him to the doctor and get all the male anatomy cut off, and try to surgically construct a "false vagina", and then get him on the estrogen shots?  I think I'm gettin too old for this world.  All seems quite insane.

Thoughts?

In another thread you posted a story about "Virtuous Pedophiles", in this thread you again mention " Children, consent, and sex"....maybe it's just me, and if so I'll go, but alarm bells have been going off in my head for the past couple days.

You seem to have a possible obsession with children and sex.

Am I the only one seeing this?

This thread and especially the "Virtual Fucking Pedophile" thread are making me extremely uncomfortable.

Why is it making you extremely uncomfortable?

This is an atheist forum, and as an atheist I also would consider myself a critical thinker as well as a skeptic.

You are somewhat new to the forum, and looking at your summary you joined less than two weeks ago, and though you have participated in a variety of threads I wouldn't say that any of us have really gotten to know you that well at this point.

So when I see that one of the very first serious threads you start on this forum has to do with what you title and refer to as "Virtuous Pedophiles" I have to question your motives. (Without going into details or specific points on this thread I will only comment that I find nothing virtuous about people who find children sexually attractive, regardless if they've acted on this "attraction" or not. And there's a huge moral difference in not doing something because society or some god tells you not to, and not doing something because you also see and understand why it is wrong)

Your next serious thread is this one, where again you mention or comment not once but at least twice with regards to children and age of consent.

So I see this, and again alarm bells are going off loudly in my head, because I start to wonder where you are going with this discussion and line of questions and the logical conclusion I come to is that your next thread will state that if children can decide for themselves, or their parents can decide whether or not to start transitioning at a young age why can't they decide or an adult decide if they can consent to being raped by an adult!

Is this clear?

Because I want it to be completely understood...As I question not only your motives, but also am suspicious of who and what you are at this point, especially when reading your replies to others on this thread and it appears you have visited other online sites that I personally find abhorrent.

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:43:04 AM
Quote from: Papasito Bruno on December 11, 2017, 01:35:19 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 10, 2017, 11:01:36 PM
Someone in another forum somewhere was pointing out some ironies about how they "gov't policies" are allowing children to undergo surgical and hormonal sexual modification, because the child identifies itself as the sex that it is not, but by the same standard children cannot consent to sex.  So they can undergo quite extreme surgeries to modify their genitalia and hormone therapy which can also be quite extreme, and permanant, especially in developing children.  From what I understand, far left policy in the US is allowing this to happen legally. 

There was a cover on the national geographic a couple years back that was a transsexual little boy, or girl? Anyway it was a male to female "transgendered" child.  I did a little background research on that cover, and came to the conclusion that that child's parents were really not fit parents, and had shaped the little boy to become a transsexual from a very young age.

So anyway, children cannot consent to sex (which i agree with) but according to far left logic it is ok for them to consent to extreme surgical genital body modification along with hormonal body modification.  What do you all think of this sort of thing?  I think the far-left (or whatever the hell they are) has gone totally nutty in promoting this kind of thing.  Add to that all these multiple "genders" they've cooked up in their heads.  I'm too old to follow the sort of nonsense they cook up and it's all a bit confusing.  They can have all the genders they want I guess, but in reality there are only 2 sexes.  They can go chopping off or adding whatever parts and injecting hormones and all that, but the thing's DNA is either a male or female (yes there are birth defects that make it look likes it's a bit of both, but does it produce babies or does it produce sperm?  Do any of these "hermaphrodite" humans self-fertilize themselves?  do they produce viable sperms? or do they conceive and birth a child?

Ok, I got off track a bit.  The question is basically what do y'all think of people trying to turn little boys into little girls and vice versa?  Is this something the parents and child should be allowed to decide?  You think if some 8 years old boy decides that one day he's a girl that the parents should be able to take him to the doctor and get all the male anatomy cut off, and try to surgically construct a "false vagina", and then get him on the estrogen shots?  I think I'm gettin too old for this world.  All seems quite insane.

Thoughts?

In another thread you posted a story about "Virtuous Pedophiles", in this thread you again mention " Children, consent, and sex"....maybe it's just me, and if so I'll go, but alarm bells have been going off in my head for the past couple days.

You seem to have a possible obsession with children and sex.

Am I the only one seeing this?

This thread and especially the "Virtual Fucking Pedophile" thread are making me extremely uncomfortable.

I just wonder if folks who react like this maybe have a history of past abuse.  I never been thru it myself but i can imagine it leaves a lot of damage to a person.  On the other side of the scenario someone may overreact if they are an abuser or potential abuser or someone with pedophiliac attractions that they are possibly in denial about.  I don't think I have an obsession?

I am uncomfortable with all of this, but how dare you question why or suggest that possibly someone like me who does find these topics and line of question uncomfortable must be either a victim or some closet pedophile!

Really? How about I'm uncomfortable because as a human being I find rape and physical assault to be disgusting!

As far as I'm concerned you can fuck right off, and more to the point of I was an administrator on this site I would have blocked you as soon as you posted the "Virtuous Child Raping" thread, and then deleted that from the forum itself.

And I don't give a rats ass if my comments to you get me banned from here either, I really fucking don't...as I find all of this totally and completely fucking disgusting.

Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Pasta Chick on December 12, 2017, 05:08:03 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM
Quote from: Recusant on December 12, 2017, 12:31:01 AM
OK, "too lazy" then. I'm not too lazy. According to this article (https://www.glaad.org/blog/advocate-debi-jacksons-transgender-7-year-old-avery-shares-her-story), the girl's mother Debi Jackson became an advocate of transgender rights due to her experience with her child. Her father Tom Jackson wrote a piece for The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/storywall/transgender-today/stories/avery-aj-jackson) about his family's experience. There is no indication that he was a transgender advocate before his child was born.

QuoteMy name is Tom. I am a husband, a father, and most of all, I try to be a decent human being. I only make the last statement because recently there have been people that have directed vile and hateful comments toward my family.

At 4 years old, my child revealed her true self by stating very clearly and articulately "I am really a girl, I am a girl on the inside." This statement altered my life forever and is something I would not change for the world. Looking back now, the signs in the year before her declaration were clear. A child who was happy and carefree began to be angry, depressed, and was acting out. Once our daughter had the words to express who she was in her heart and her brain, we began to seek help from medical experts.

We took her to see her pediatrician, a child psychologist, and a gender therapist. Our child was diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, and we were told that allowing her to socially transition to live as a girl was the proper "treatment." At that point my wife and I poured over every bit of information we could find about transgender children. The information was sparse, but what we did find was very disturbing. Over 50% of transgender children try to commit suicide by their mid to late teenage years. A large number of them succeed. And the main reason that these children state that they try to harm themselves is the lack of love and support of their family and friends. My wife and I decided that we would much rather have a happy, healthy daughter than a dead son. . . .

I looked at several stories about the family and haven't found anything supporting the assertion that the parents "were die-hard transsexual/transgender advocates since before that child was born." They have an older child, a son. It appears that he's just a regular boy.

I don't doubt you read something that promoted the idea that the parents coerced their child in some way, or otherwise managed to cast them in a bad light. Unless you can cite it and it proves to be a reputable source per my request, I'm inclined to believe it was religiously motivated propaganda.

it's possible i got this info from a noncredible  source, but i won't dismiss it until i've dug into it a bit more

I wonder: would we consider a male to female trans to be a homosexual if it likes boys?  i really don't know how all this new stuff works.  i think i'm too old for it.  i grew up in a much simpler time

No, we would not. Because SHE (note that she is not "it") is a woman, and women who are attracted only to men are heterosexual.

It isn't hard. At all. It's actually not new, either, it's just up until very recently it's been socially acceptable to be a bigoted, dehumanizing, willfully ignorant prick such as yourself.

I also don't buy your bullshit for one second. Not only is this easy, even if you heard about yesterday, it is so, so easy to find thousands of resources to learn from. No one needs to explain this to you. Google is your friend.

Except you don't actually care, so you're going to do what every other POS troll who thinks they're so smart does and keep asking for more and more "evidence" that these people are actually human without ever bothering to actually consider any of it, let alone actually learn for yourself.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 12, 2017, 05:24:01 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM

I wonder: would we consider a male to female trans to be a homosexual if it likes boys?

Wow!
"It?" I didn't see this. You are referring to another human being as, "it?" ------That's low, man.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 12, 2017, 05:32:20 PM
Pending staff discussion, this thread will be locked for a cool-down. AngelOfDeath, if you have something to say in your defense, please send me a PM. Click my username in this post, and you'll find a menu on the left which includes a "Send personal message" link.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 13, 2017, 06:53:58 AM
Dehumanizing people by using the impersonal pronoun "it" because they don't conform to a pre-concieved notion of propriety (or for any similar reason) can legitimately viewed as hate speech, which is against the rules and the ethos of HAF. Telling members to "fuck off" and calling them a "POS" is the opposite of civility and therefore likewise against the rules and ethos of this site.





Members of HAF should be able to conduct a discussion here without allowing it to descend into insults and abuse, no matter how sensitive the topic and even when opinions are expressed that they find offensive. In instances like this it would be best to remember Whitney's admonition:

QuoteAll members should take time to think and cool down before responding to posts in an angry, disrespectful, or otherwise inappropriate tone . . .

If a post is offensive enough to elicit an abusive response it's also likely to be against the rules here; please consider the option of reporting it rather than escalating the conflict.

No formal warnings at this point, but if red text from staff makes a reappearance here it probably won't be just advisory.

This thread is re-opened. Please keep the above in mind in any discussion that follows. This is a worthwhile topic, and maybe somebody can learn something from it.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 07:19:39 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fnewsfeed%2F001%2F042%2F619%2F4ea.jpg&hash=18ccc32b747f6855f73aead5a0e77c63481b2d47)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Pasta Chick on December 13, 2017, 11:02:48 AM
It's not a fucking opinion.

This is why I keep leaving HAF.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 13, 2017, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on December 13, 2017, 11:02:48 AM
It's not a fucking opinion.

This is why I keep leaving HAF.

Talk to us, punch us in the face.
Almost everything is opinion.
You have enormous cred here
Say what you want to say,
you'll have to say it again
'cause of retention spans
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Tank on December 13, 2017, 06:54:40 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on December 13, 2017, 11:02:48 AM
It's not a fucking opinion.

This is why I keep leaving HAF.
And you keep coming back  :grin:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Tank on December 13, 2017, 06:55:17 PM
Quote from: Bad Penny II on December 13, 2017, 12:50:18 PM
Quote from: Pasta Chick on December 13, 2017, 11:02:48 AM
It's not a fucking opinion.

This is why I keep leaving HAF.

Talk to us, punch us in the face.
Almost everything is opinion.
You have enormous cred here
Say what you want to say,
you'll have to say it again
'cause of retention spans
Hear hear!
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Tank on December 13, 2017, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.
I wish there was a ban hammer.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
If you live in a place where you're just worrying about where your next meal will come from every single day I suppose you're far less likely to be worried that you were born the wrong sex, etc.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 07:50:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I would think a male to female trans having relations with a man would most def be homosexual, unless the trans is post op.
And you care about this...Because....?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
Because if  not post op then under the clothing and makeup that person still has all the workings of a man.
And you worry about this...Because?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".
Yes, it was.

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.
How do you know this? Do you know many?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans.  The person actually is still a man even if being self deluded into thinking he is a woman.  If a male to female trans can become a "she" and a "woman" we have to ask ourselves: what even is a woman?  It just becomes all too confusing.  1st world problems i suppose.  If you live in a place where you're just worrying about where your next meal will come from every single day I suppose you're far less likely to be worried that you were born the wrong sex, etc.
If you worry as much as you do about another person's genitalia, that would also be a, "1st world problem i suppose."
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 07:57:22 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM
...i really don't know how all this new stuff works.  i think i'm too old for it.  i grew up in a much simpler time
I thought you said you were thirty-something. That's not old.  :eyebrow:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM

I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder I think we should try and help them.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:40:47 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 07:57:22 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM
...i really don't know how all this new stuff works.  i think i'm too old for it.  i grew up in a much simpler time
I thought you said you were thirty-something. That's not old.  :eyebrow:
Almost everyone thinks they grew up in a simpler time, because when they were growing up they only had to deal with simple issues because they were still growing up.

When I was a kid everything was simpler, I didn't have to pay rent, cook my own food, fold my own clothes, wash my own dishes... but the world is just so complicated now, we should go back to those simpler times where if I shit my pants, someone else would clean it up for me.

But gender issues have been around for a long time, just because one is not aware of the complexity of the world, doesn't mean that the world is simple.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?

Yeah.

I asked AngelofDeath what his qualifications were for making that assessment, which he has yet to answer.  ::)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PM


take a look at the stats for post-op trans folks
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?

Yeah.

I asked AngelofDeath what his qualifications were for making that assessment, which he has yet to answer.  ::)

take a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

And? What do you think that proves? I would like to know how you make the leap from higher rates of suicide in post-op trans folks to it's an organic mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

Depression has long been established as a mental disorder, and be caused by anti-transgender bias like the type you display. The non-acceptance that people feel they are of the wrong gender can really take an emotional toll I would imagine. Human beings are essentially a social species, and social acceptance is high on the list for many.

Look at https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf), page 11.

Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 13, 2017, 10:00:47 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PMtake a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

A little reminder of how rational discourse works: The person making the assertion is the one who has a burden of proof. Assertions unsupported by evidence have no standing. This is so basic it shouldn't need to be pointed out. I will note in passing that the study most often cited by religious and/or right wing anti-trans sources is being misused, as its own author has said (http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm).

QuotePeople who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24344788) at the literature (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10508-009-9551-1), we find (https://mayoclinic.pure.elsevier.com/en/publications/hormonal-therapy-and-sex-reassignment-a-systematic-review-and-met) that several (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/) recent studies (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5) conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women) and improves mental health (http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/25690443).





Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I would think a male to female trans having relations with a man would most def be homosexual, unless the trans is post op.  Because if  not post op then under the clothing and makeup that person still has all the workings of a man.  As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".  I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.  I suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans.  The person actually is still a man even if being self deluded into thinking he is a woman.  If a male to female trans can become a "she" and a "woman" we have to ask ourselves: what even is a woman?  It just becomes all too confusing.  1st world problems i suppose.  If you live in a place where you're just worrying about where your next meal will come from every single day I suppose you're far less likely to be worried that you were born the wrong sex, etc.

"It" is dehumanizing, regardless of intention. I think this is particularly the case when the person so described belongs to a minority. "It" commonly refers to inanimate objects or plants, somewhat less commonly animals. Human beings belong only to the last category, but that is no excuse for lumping them in with non-human things.

"They" as a third person singular neutral pronoun has a long history, whether you like it or not.

"A brief history of singular 'their' (etc.)" (http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html#X1x)

"Singular 'they' and the many reasons why it's correct" | Motivated Grammar (https://motivatedgrammar.wordpress.com/2009/09/10/singular-they-and-the-many-reasons-why-its-correct/)

"2015 Word of the Year is singular 'they'" | American Dialect Society (https://www.americandialect.org/2015-word-of-the-year-is-singular-they)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 13, 2017, 10:16:14 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 13, 2017, 07:20:22 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.
I wish there was a ban hammer.

I thought you had one, that's a terrible over-sight.  Here:
(https://i.imgur.com/03hREdk.jpg)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.

...And none of them know how to google shit on the internet, so they go to an atheist forum and ask about everything because they know nothing.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 14, 2017, 03:00:40 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".  I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.

From Merriam-Webster:  historical use of "they" as a singular pronoun (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they)

QuoteI suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans. 

There's a difference between gender and sex.  From a medical website: Sex and Gender: what is the difference? (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232363.php)

Again, using Google, less than one minute each.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Sandra Craft on December 14, 2017, 03:34:02 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?

Yeah.

I asked AngelofDeath what his qualifications were for making that assessment, which he has yet to answer.  ::)

take a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

And? What do you think that proves? I would like to know how you make the leap from higher rates of suicide in post-op trans folks to it's an organic mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

Depression has long been established as a mental disorder, and be caused by anti-transgender bias like the type you display. The non-acceptance that people feel they are of the wrong gender can really take an emotional toll I would imagine. Human beings are essentially a social species, and social acceptance is high on the list for many.

Look at https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf), page 11.

And here's another one, this one from Psychology Today: Why suicide rates are higher amoung LGBTQ youth (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-truth-about-exercise-addiction/201710/why-are-suicide-rates-higher-among-lgbtq-youth)

As Silver points out, the acceptance of your family and your society mean a lot, and if you're in constant danger of losing either or both or worse yet have never truly had them, the risk of suicide climbs.  Mental illness might be part of it but it's hardly necessary, a shunned human being is an extremely vulnerable human being.

For example.  In the early 60s when my mother was in her 20s and unmarried, she was left pregnant by a rape and attempted to commit suicide.  The trauma of rape was bad enough, but at least very few people knew about it and could judge her for it.  But pregnancy was not something she'd be able to hide and since all she had to look forward to was condemnation, judgement and shunning from both her family and society at large she felt that death was preferable.  She didn't die, but that's another story.

The point is this wasn't an unusual reaction at that time for women in her position, even if they'd gotten pregnant by consensual sex.  This was a reaction to going from a lifetime of acceptance and support to the threat of, at least temporarily, losing that.  Imagine the effect on someone's sense of self-worth after a lifetime of lacking any support or acceptance.  The only thing suicide rates among trans people tell us is the degree to which society has failed to behave with generosity and kindness.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 14, 2017, 05:41:54 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 14, 2017, 03:34:02 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 09:27:13 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 09:14:29 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2017, 08:52:33 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 08:46:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder[misrepresentations removed]
Wow, that's a lot of wrong. What mental disorder is that?

Yeah.

I asked AngelofDeath what his qualifications were for making that assessment, which he has yet to answer.  ::)

take a look at the suicide stats for post-op trans folks

And? What do you think that proves? I would like to know how you make the leap from higher rates of suicide in post-op trans folks to it's an organic mental disorder, like schizophrenia.

Depression has long been established as a mental disorder, and be caused by anti-transgender bias like the type you display. The non-acceptance that people feel they are of the wrong gender can really take an emotional toll I would imagine. Human beings are essentially a social species, and social acceptance is high on the list for many.

Look at https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf), page 11.

And here's another one, this one from Psychology Today: Why suicide rates are higher amoung LGBTQ youth (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-truth-about-exercise-addiction/201710/why-are-suicide-rates-higher-among-lgbtq-youth)

As Silver points out, the acceptance of your family and your society mean a lot, and if you're in constant danger of losing either or both or worse yet have never truly had them, the risk of suicide climbs.  Mental illness might be part of it but it's hardly necessary, a shunned human being is an extremely vulnerable human being.

For example.  In the early 60s when my mother was in her 20s and unmarried, she was left pregnant by a rape and attempted to commit suicide.  The trauma of rape was bad enough, but at least very few people knew about it and could judge her for it.  But pregnancy was not something she'd be able to hide and since all she had to look forward to was condemnation, judgement and shunning from both her family and society at large she felt that death was preferable.  She didn't die, but that's another story.

The point is this wasn't an unusual reaction at that time for women in her position, even if they'd gotten pregnant by consensual sex.  This was a reaction to going from a lifetime of acceptance and support to the threat of, at least temporarily, losing that.  Imagine the effect on someone's sense of self-worth after a lifetime of lacking any support or acceptance.  The only thing suicide rates among trans people tell us is the degree to which society has failed to behave with generosity and kindness.
What would Jesus say?  :notsure:

(https://memegenerator.net/img/images/600x600/5399574/captain-picard.jpg)
"xSilverPhinx, Davin, BooksCatsEtc: Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:10:00 AM

i pondered for a bit about whether to use he or she, but in split second decision put 'it' because it was shorter to type in, but probly shoulda put 'the person'
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM


psychologytoday isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Tank on December 14, 2017, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
...
psychology today isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.
Which psychology source would you trust?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Bad Penny II on December 14, 2017, 11:55:30 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 07:50:45 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I would think a male to female trans having relations with a man would most def be homosexual, unless the trans is post op.
And you care about this...Because....?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
Because if  not post op then under the clothing and makeup that person still has all the workings of a man.
And you worry about this...Because?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
As far as "it", it wasn't meant as "dehumanizing".
Yes, it was.

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I know some trans will like to be called "they", but this is a 3rd person plural and absolutely ridiculous to be used in that context.
How do you know this? Do you know many?

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I suppose one could call a male to female trans "she" but I find this a stretch unless applied to a passable trans.  The person actually is still a man even if being self deluded into thinking he is a woman.  If a male to female trans can become a "she" and a "woman" we have to ask ourselves: what even is a woman?  It just becomes all too confusing.  1st world problems i suppose.  If you live in a place where you're just worrying about where your next meal will come from every single day I suppose you're far less likely to be worried that you were born the wrong sex, etc.
If you worry as much as you do about another person's genitalia, that would also be a, "1st world problem i suppose."

I care about these folks.  And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder I think we should try and help them.  its more than likely an organic mental disorder like schizophrenia.  We don't go around supporting schizophrenics with their delusions and telling them delusion is real.  These folks need help accepting the way they were born not being encouraged into delusion.  If they're trans and only take it to the point of crossdressing maybe this is fine.  crossdressing i think does no real harm

I care about these folks. And since they are afflicted with this mental disorder (ass hole mania) I think we should try and help them.

It costs you nothing to allow people to just be.
Well it costs me nothing, though I don't get my jollies intentionally hurting others.
I see that this would cost you, have you thought of scrap booking or preserving fruit?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 14, 2017, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on December 13, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on December 13, 2017, 07:18:22 PM
So a lying nun, a gnostic ignorer, and an edgelord walk into a forum...

I wish there was a punchline.

...And none of them know how to google shit on the internet, so they go to an atheist forum and ask about everything because they know nothing.
Or they googled for, "topics to use when trolling a forum"
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 14, 2017, 01:44:24 PM
I still want to know what the mental disorder is. AoD said it was a mental disorder, such a bold claim should be easy to back by just saying what mental disorder it is.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 14, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:10:00 AMi pondered for a bit about whether to use he or she, but in split second decision put 'it' because it was shorter to type in, but probly shoulda put 'the person'

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
psychologytoday isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.

So, immediately after admitting that you "probly shoulda" used less dehumanizing language when referring to trans people, you apparently use bad grammar in order to go out of your way to use that same dehumanizing term. Your approach to discussions here will determine how you're treated by members and staff of this site, AngelOfDeath, and bullshit like the above discredits you as an honest interlocutor.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 04:27:27 PM
The mental shambles afflict everyone, it's just more readily apparent in some people.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 05:57:58 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 14, 2017, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
...
psychology today isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.
Which psychology source would you trust?

probably one that doesn't try to be politically correct and support whatever the fad of the day is.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:02:26 PM


you miss the whole point of the topic.  It's about the well being of children.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PM


didn't i only refer to them as 'it' one time?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 14, 2017, 06:50:31 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PM
Quote from: Recusant on December 14, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:10:00 AMi pondered for a bit about whether to use he or she, but in split second decision put 'it' because it was shorter to type in, but probly shoulda put 'the person'

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:18:06 AM
psychologytoday isn't a source i trust, but i agree everyone should be more tolerant and nice to the trans folks regardless if its mental illness or just life choice.

So, immediately after admitting that you "probly shoulda" used less dehumanizing language when referring to trans people, you apparently use bad grammar in order to go out of your way to use that same dehumanizing term. Your approach to discussions here will determine how you're treated by members and staff of this site, AngelOfDeath, and bullshit like the above discredits you as an honest interlocutor.

didn't i only refer to them as 'it' one time?

It can't be serious.
:picard facepalm:
Can it?

Oops!  :-X
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 14, 2017, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:02:26 PM
you miss the whole point of the topic.  It's about the well being of children.  I suppose after age 18 they can mutilate their genitalia and body to their heart's content.

No, AngelOfDeath, You started talking about the transexual children and then you're the one who started talking about transexual adults and their sexuality:

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 12, 2017, 05:23:50 AM
I wonder: would we consider a male to female trans to be a homosexual if it likes boys?  i really don't know how all this new stuff works.  i think i'm too old for it.  i grew up in a much simpler time

Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 13, 2017, 07:36:54 PM
I would think a male to female trans having relations with a man would most def be homosexual, unless the trans is post op.  Because if  not post op then under the clothing and makeup that person still has all the workings of a man.  ...

If you care so much about transexuals, why don't you go join a forum?

I think it's interesting how you post stuff, and then say someone else is missing the point when you're the one moving it around. But who gives a shit --I'm just the paranoid one.  :reading:

Anyways, I'm getting tired of talking to a person who acts like a 5 year old. I've had smarter, more interesting conversations with my 6 year old.  :yawn:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on December 14, 2017, 08:41:57 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PMdidn't i only refer to them as 'it' one time?

Perhaps I've misunderstood your intent. If so, I apologize.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: No one on December 14, 2017, 09:15:28 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Raps247
Anyways, I'm getting tired of talking to a person who acts like a 5 year old. I've had smarter, more interesting conversations with my 6 year old.

Well obviously, there's a whole other year  of experience there.

C'mon Raps, don't be like these chaps, shootin' craps, takin' naps, drinkin' schnapps, fallin' inta traps of memory lapse!
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Magdalena on December 14, 2017, 09:41:40 PM
Quote from: No one on December 14, 2017, 09:15:28 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Raps247
Anyways, I'm getting tired of talking to a person who acts like a 5 year old. I've had smarter, more interesting conversations with my 6 year old.

Well obviously, there's a whole other year  of experience there.
True.  :snicker:

Quote from: No one on December 14, 2017, 09:15:28 PM
C'mon Raps, don't be like these chaps, shootin' craps, takin' naps, drinkin' schnapps, fallin' inta traps of memory lapse!
I just blocked him. First time I block a member in 7 years. That should tell him something.  :sad sigh:
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 10:03:30 PM


7 years is a long time.  All I can tell you is that you'll be missing out.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 10:05:23 PM
Quote from: Recusant on December 14, 2017, 08:41:57 PM
Quote from: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 06:07:53 PMdidn't i only refer to them as 'it' one time?

Perhaps I've misunderstood your intent. If so, I apologize.

it's all fine. no worry
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 14, 2017, 10:06:56 PM


Maybe I should join their forum, but I have a feeling I wouldn't be accepted or tolerated there.  Wouldn't that be ironic?  Maybe I will try at some point, but I don't have unlimited time.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 15, 2017, 03:01:43 PM
What is the mental disorder called?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: AngelOfDeath on December 21, 2017, 06:59:53 AM
mistake post. ignore pls
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Davin on December 21, 2017, 04:44:33 PM
What is the mental disorder?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Icarus on December 21, 2017, 11:27:55 PM
F'crise sake peeps, Chill!!!!  All of you are too smart to descend into vitriolic fulminations.   Not defending AOD here. Appealing to the dignity and intelligence of the group for whom I believe are above resolution by way of bar room brawls................

.There is no greater put down than to ignore ones adversary by way of total silence. : Icarus' aphorism.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Dave on December 22, 2017, 09:03:58 AM
Quote from: Icarus on December 21, 2017, 11:27:55 PM
F'crise sake peeps, Chill!!!!  All of you are too smart to descend into vitriolic fulminations.   Not defending AOD here. Appealing to the dignity and intelligence of the group for whom I believe are above resolution by way of bar room brawls................

.There is no greater put down than to ignore ones adversary by way of total silence. : Icarus' aphorism.

QuoteSilence is Violence

Off topic: that's a quote from a site that I have not quite fathomed yet. Be interestd in opinions:
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hlg-silence-is-violence/
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Prycejosh1987 on August 21, 2023, 09:29:22 PM
I think kids should learn all forms of life but becoming a transgender causes more problems than it solves. Jazz Jennings is an example of a child too young to transition. The parents should of sued their brains when questioning Jazz's questions. I believe that choices should be made at a good age, but personally i believe a man was born a man and a woman was born a woman.
Physicality can change but the mentality and emotional stability does not change no matter what someone does with their body.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on August 21, 2023, 11:29:06 PM
Quote from: Prycejosh1987 on August 21, 2023, 09:29:22 PMI think kids should learn all forms of life but becoming a transgender causes more problems than it solves. Jazz Jennings is an example of a child too young to transition. The parents should of sued their brains when questioning Jazz's questions. I believe that choices should be made at a good age, but personally i believe a man was born a man and a woman was born a woman.
Physicality can change but the mentality and emotional stability does not change no matter what someone does with their body.

I don't think you read the thread. Despite AngelOfDeath vandalizing it by editing posts long after they'd been responded to, there is plenty of information here that you appear to be ignoring. It looks as if you have just found a topic that you wish to express your opinion on, and apparently a rather uninformed opinion at that.


QuotePhysicality can change but the mentality and emotional stability does not change no matter what someone does with their body.

I imagine you do not realise the irony inherent in what you wrote. One who is physically a female but knows their gender to be male does not change no matter what others might believe. If they manage a transition, it is only to feel more comfortable in their own skin. As you say, their "mentality" remains.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: jumbojak on August 22, 2023, 10:27:01 PM
I remember years ago, a significant campaign amongst atheists was banning female circumcision. Even in cases where the girl wanted this to happen. Now... genital mutilation is touted as healthcare because a child can choose. It's disgusting.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: billy rubin on August 23, 2023, 01:16:52 AM
i agree. my sons arent circumcised and i took all sorts of grief for not imposing that on them when they were young. i believe nobody has a right to anybody else's body, period.

im in favour of leaving irreversible surgery out of the reach of minors. but puberty blockers are a different matter.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on August 23, 2023, 03:17:00 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 22, 2023, 10:27:01 PMI remember years ago, a significant campaign amongst atheists was banning female circumcision. Even in cases where the girl wanted this to happen. Now... genital mutilation is touted as healthcare because a child can choose. It's disgusting.

Do you believe that it is a common practice to perform gender reassignment surgery on children? If so, please cite your sources. For reference:

"Young Children Do Not Receive Medical Gender Transition Treatment" | FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/)
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Asmodean on August 23, 2023, 07:29:49 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 22, 2023, 10:27:01 PMI remember years ago, a significant campaign amongst atheists was banning female circumcision. Even in cases where the girl wanted this to happen. Now... genital mutilation is touted as healthcare because a child can choose. It's disgusting.
Yeah... The longer you live, the more good old days there are to look at the pictures of while sighing deeply. :sadnod:

I think where I'm at, people are usually barely-adults when they get actual surgery, but I disapprove of the way that's being... Promoted. Some people are just assembled wrongly, yet I think much of the "solution" for many who get taken for a ride down all the wrong side streets may lie in the realms of psychology and psychiatry.

It's also the case that far from every anomaly is a problem and needs to be "fixed." People can perfectly well live happy, fulfilling lives with just one arm or as homosexuals or with their organs mirrored around the sternum. So... I suppose add a bit of education and/or social work and/or competent parenting to my ologies and iatries.

Puberty blockers, surgery... Heck, even the recognition of having a condition that would call for their use - those things should be difficult to obtain.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:37:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on August 23, 2023, 01:16:52 AMi agree. my sons arent circumcised and i took all sorts of grief for not imposing that on them when they were young. i believe nobody has a right to anybody else's body, period.

im in favour of leaving irreversible surgery out of the reach of minors. but puberty blockers are a different matter.

There is no compelling argument for puberty blockers either. The overwhelming majority of children experiencing gender dysphoria desist with puberty. Couple that with the number of children who are quickly placed on hormone therapy and the "cure" is far, far more damaging than the disease.

The narrative that puberty blockers and hrt are just a pause, and fully reversible is unsupported. If anything, the opposite is the case.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:50:36 AM
Quote from: Recusant on August 23, 2023, 03:17:00 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 22, 2023, 10:27:01 PMI remember years ago, a significant campaign amongst atheists was banning female circumcision. Even in cases where the girl wanted this to happen. Now... genital mutilation is touted as healthcare because a child can choose. It's disgusting.

Do you believe that it is a common practice to perform gender reassignment surgery on children? If so, please cite your sources. For reference:

"Young Children Do Not Receive Medical Gender Transition Treatment" | FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/)

I don't even have to read the article to know for a fact that it is bullshit. And that's not because the article - as it presents its information with its particular definitions - isn't technically true. You can frame a lot of things in a technically true way.

It's because gender surgeries are being performed on children, and doing so is wrong. The only way you can claim that it does not happen is by excluding anyone going through puberty. While it would indeed be barbarous to surgically castrate a six year old it is no less barbaric to castrate a seventeen year old.

To then have that persons mother boast about threatening sexual assault so their surgical wound doesn't heal is sick. Jazz Jennings mother said this on television.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 11:06:01 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:37:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on August 23, 2023, 01:16:52 AMi agree. my sons arent circumcised and i took all sorts of grief for not imposing that on them when they were young. i believe nobody has a right to anybody else's body, period.

im in favour of leaving irreversible surgery out of the reach of minors. but puberty blockers are a different matter.

There is no compelling argument for puberty blockers either. The overwhelming majority of children experiencing gender dysphoria desist with puberty. Couple that with the number of children who are quickly placed on hormone therapy and the "cure" is far, far more damaging than the disease.

The narrative that puberty blockers and hrt are just a pause, and fully reversible is unsupported. If anything, the opposite is the case.

I've heard those who feel compelled to be otherwise make compelling arguments.
It's a shame this has become a field of battle for the culture wars.
I assume there are advantages in transitioning early, but then some people change their minds.
It seems difficult, it's a dilemma yet so many seem so certain they know the right of it.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 11:11:12 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on August 23, 2023, 07:29:49 AMI think much of the "solution" for many who get taken for a ride down all the wrong side streets may lie in the realms of psychology and psychiatry.

Those guardians of the id charge so much though, $30,000 to supervise someone taking psilocybin.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Asmodean on August 23, 2023, 11:18:01 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:50:36 AMWhile it would indeed be barbarous to surgically castrate a six year old it is no less barbaric to castrate a seventeen year old.
:smilenod:

That's not to say that it should never ever be done - there may be sets of circumstances to dictate otherwise, however, in my poinion, it should not ever become something rutinely done or even considered - unless, and perhaps not even then, a method for reliably reversing the currently-irreversible procedures is found.

Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 11:11:12 AMThose guardians of the id charge so much though, $30,000 to supervise someone taking psilocybin.
No part of getting fake junk installed* is cheap... Heck, even a regular depression can run quite a tab with the man with the couch. If you can't afford it, then you can't afford it. Such is life.

*The Asmo speaketh as He doth. Those easily offended by this characterisation may or may not be helped by not looking for meanings that aren't there.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 11:06:01 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:37:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on August 23, 2023, 01:16:52 AMi agree. my sons arent circumcised and i took all sorts of grief for not imposing that on them when they were young. i believe nobody has a right to anybody else's body, period.

im in favour of leaving irreversible surgery out of the reach of minors. but puberty blockers are a different matter.

There is no compelling argument for puberty blockers either. The overwhelming majority of children experiencing gender dysphoria desist with puberty. Couple that with the number of children who are quickly placed on hormone therapy and the "cure" is far, far more damaging than the disease.

The narrative that puberty blockers and hrt are just a pause, and fully reversible is unsupported. If anything, the opposite is the case.

I've heard those who feel compelled to be otherwise make compelling arguments.
It's a shame this has become a field of battle for the culture wars.
I assume there are advantages in transitioning early, but then some people change their minds.
It seems difficult, it's a dilemma yet so many seem so certain they know the right of it.

Why do you assume that?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 12:00:47 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:50:36 AMWhile it would indeed be barbarous to surgically castrate a six year old it is no less barbaric to castrate a seventeen year old.

Seriously?
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 12:50:30 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding.. on August 23, 2023, 11:06:01 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:37:21 AM
Quote from: billy rubin on August 23, 2023, 01:16:52 AMi agree. my sons arent circumcised and i took all sorts of grief for not imposing that on them when they were young. i believe nobody has a right to anybody else's body, period.

im in favour of leaving irreversible surgery out of the reach of minors. but puberty blockers are a different matter.

There is no compelling argument for puberty blockers either. The overwhelming majority of children experiencing gender dysphoria desist with puberty. Couple that with the number of children who are quickly placed on hormone therapy and the "cure" is far, far more damaging than the disease.

The narrative that puberty blockers and hrt are just a pause, and fully reversible is unsupported. If anything, the opposite is the case.

I've heard those who feel compelled to be otherwise make compelling arguments.
It's a shame this has become a field of battle for the culture wars.
I assume there are advantages in transitioning early, but then some people change their minds.
It seems difficult, it's a dilemma yet so many seem so certain they know the right of it.

Why do you assume that?

Oh, I've been listening to lefty radio for decades.
They want to be women, preferably not man faced, man shaped women.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Asmodean on August 23, 2023, 01:58:18 PM
I've listened to Lefty Radio too, before The Orangepocalypse radicalised or at the very least turned mildly insane those formerly-sensible talking heads.

Then, The Elder Evil in the White House even came for some acquaintances over here, where he literally was hashtag nottheirpresident.

Eh... He was just a symptom of a larger issue, so no blame attached to my reminiscing. Just putting a year to the start of my renegotiating my political affiliations with myself.

I suppose my point is maybe be careful in getting them talking points from talking heads, or at least admitting to it? They are clickbaiters, the lot of them. Some, probably cynically so. It is a side effect of operating in attention economy - you have to ever keep going "out there" to stay relevant to the "larger picture" and or in the effort to acquire that mythical "wider audience."

That's... Me rambling, by the way, but I shall indulge myself. That's what I think the "woke" entertainment industry is starting to realise. They thought they were reaching additional segments of the public with their preachy, overly-expensive flops, and only ended up alienating the public they had. It's the case of a loyal customer being worth a bunch of walk-ins and window-shoppers, and so when you substiture him for them... Yeah. Eventually, the moeny dries up, by which point every ounce of good will is already gone. I may or may not be looking at you, Disney. although the money men, whose job it is to look after the bottom line seem to finally have begun crawling out of the woodwork elsewhere as well. Too little too late, I think history will show, but I'd be happy enough to be proven wrong.

In any case, what was I on about? Ah, yes! Lefty Radio. Them's were the good times when the Fox Newses... Ugh. That's not right. Foxes... News? Even worse. Regardless, when them there of the world were "junk news." Today though... Yeah. Maybe it's just me, but the good old Lefty Radio has, broadly speaking, fallen far indeed.
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: Recusant on August 23, 2023, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:50:36 AM
Quote from: Recusant on August 23, 2023, 03:17:00 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 22, 2023, 10:27:01 PMI remember years ago, a significant campaign amongst atheists was banning female circumcision. Even in cases where the girl wanted this to happen. Now... genital mutilation is touted as healthcare because a child can choose. It's disgusting.

Do you believe that it is a common practice to perform gender reassignment surgery on children? If so, please cite your sources. For reference:

"Young Children Do Not Receive Medical Gender Transition Treatment" | FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/)

I don't even have to read the article to know for a fact that it is bullshit. And that's not because the article - as it presents its information with its particular definitions - isn't technically true. You can frame a lot of things in a technically true way.

It's because gender surgeries are being performed on children, and doing so is wrong. The only way you can claim that it does not happen is by excluding anyone going through puberty. While it would indeed be barbarous to surgically castrate a six year old it is no less barbaric to castrate a seventeen year old.

To then have that persons mother boast about threatening sexual assault so their surgical wound doesn't heal is sick. Jazz Jennings mother said this on television.

OK, so no sources.  However you are certain that while the source I provide may be "technically true" it is "bullshit."  I understand, and will desist. 
Title: Re: "transgenderism" in children
Post by: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 07:33:33 PM
Quote from: Recusant on August 23, 2023, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 23, 2023, 10:50:36 AM
Quote from: Recusant on August 23, 2023, 03:17:00 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on August 22, 2023, 10:27:01 PMI remember years ago, a significant campaign amongst atheists was banning female circumcision. Even in cases where the girl wanted this to happen. Now... genital mutilation is touted as healthcare because a child can choose. It's disgusting.

Do you believe that it is a common practice to perform gender reassignment surgery on children? If so, please cite your sources. For reference:

"Young Children Do Not Receive Medical Gender Transition Treatment" | FactCheck.org (https://www.factcheck.org/2023/05/scicheck-young-children-do-not-receive-medical-gender-transition-treatment/)

I don't even have to read the article to know for a fact that it is bullshit. And that's not because the article - as it presents its information with its particular definitions - isn't technically true. You can frame a lot of things in a technically true way.

It's because gender surgeries are being performed on children, and doing so is wrong. The only way you can claim that it does not happen is by excluding anyone going through puberty. While it would indeed be barbarous to surgically castrate a six year old it is no less barbaric to castrate a seventeen year old.

To then have that persons mother boast about threatening sexual assault so their surgical wound doesn't heal is sick. Jazz Jennings mother said this on television.

OK, so no sources.  However you are certain that while the source I provide may be "technically true" it is "bullshit."  I understand, and will desist. 

Very well. I'm not going to pretend to understand. I used my break to read that article and it specifically says that adolescents - otherwise known as children - are eligible for gender surgery. So yeah, bullshit.