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General => Media => Topic started by: jumbojak on February 28, 2018, 05:43:33 AM

Title: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on February 28, 2018, 05:43:33 AM
I've been watching Kingdo of Heaven for the past few nights and while I have a few issues with the film there's one thing I really appreciate. Namely, that in actual fights most of the characters take appropriate measures to protect themselves and their measures actually seem to work!

They wear armor, and helmets, and many of the even carry shields. I recently saw a Game of Thrones episode where a large battle took place. One side had no real armor, no shields, and were very nearly wiped out. The dumb bastards even had a giant which they failed to equip with any  means to defend himself. Towards the end he smashed a castle gate with his hands. He would've been UNSTOPPABLE  with a shield. Just smoosh the puny humans while their arrows stick harmlessly into the barn door he could've held outstretched.

I guess swords slicing through and thrusting through armor makes for a more exciting scene than tow guys wrestling each other to the ground and trying to pass a dagger through each other's eye sits but I think it could be done.

Show the guys in fancy, high quality armor getting carted off for ransom while the common soldiers are executed. Hell, show the struggle to get through a vulnerability to cause a fatal wound. Something. Anything really.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Tank on February 28, 2018, 06:20:45 AM
Your version of seeing a Chaffe with a Swastika painted on the side of the turret? :grin:
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on February 28, 2018, 01:19:23 PM
I've never noticed one before but now I'll be looking for them!
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 02, 2018, 02:49:22 PM
Interesting topic.

Realism is a plus in some cases I think, and having armour, shields etc in close-quarter battles (without firearms) certainly go a long way in securing a victory. The odds definitely aren't even when one opponent is armoured and the other is not. But I'm just stating the obvious here.

However,  two things:

1) Weren't good armour, shields, helmets etc., expensive? Commoner fighters just didn't have access to them. Maybe a wooden shield or something similar, or looted chain mail suits...  :notsure: Seems like in many cases they were battle fodder.

2) What about societies where personal bravery and honour meant fighting with no armour? Didn't some ancient fighters fight butt naked to try and intimidate their opponents? I read some Ancient Roman accounts of tribes who did this, but I can't remember which right now. ::)


Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 02, 2018, 07:08:54 PM
No one has ever superseded King Arthur's victory over the Black Knight in "The Holy Grail".  That was the best fight scene of all time.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 02, 2018, 08:25:16 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 02, 2018, 07:08:54 PM
No one has ever superseded King Arthur's victory over the Black Knight in "The Holy Grail".  That was the best fight scene of all time.

Yes, especially since it only resulted in few flesh wounds. :smilenod:
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on March 02, 2018, 09:07:03 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 02, 2018, 08:25:16 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 02, 2018, 07:08:54 PM
No one has ever superseded King Arthur's victory over the Black Knight in "The Holy Grail".  That was the best fight scene of all time.

Yes, especially since it only resulted in few flesh wounds. :smilenod:

Running away, eh?  You yellow bastard!!
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on March 02, 2018, 09:28:53 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 02, 2018, 02:49:22 PM
Interesting topic.

Realism is a plus in some cases I think, and having armour, shields etc in close-quarter battles (without firearms) certainly go a long way in securing a victory. The odds definitely aren't even when one opponent is armoured and the other is not. But I'm just stating the obvious here.

However,  two things:

1) Weren't good armour, shields, helmets etc., expensive? Commoner fighters just didn't have access to them. Maybe a wooden shield or something similar, or looted chain mail suits...  :notsure: Seems like in many cases they were battle fodder.

2) What about societies where personal bravery and honour meant fighting with no armour? Didn't some ancient fighters fight butt naked to try and intimidate their opponents? I read some Ancient Roman accounts of tribes who did this, but I can't remember which right now. ::)

Armor was a lot more common than you might think. Cities like Milan and Cologne had an international arms trade going supplying what was known as munition armor to kings and cities across Europe and the Middle East. The Milanese even went so far as to devise fast methods of decorating armor when the Holy Roman Empire prohibited sales of arms to France intended for battle. They were selling hundreds of complete suits for infantry and archers at a time. Huge inventories were stockpiled and distributed.

Shields are so simple and so useful that just about every society on earth has developed them at one point or another.  Mail was also readily available and used extensively. But helmets and shields seem to develop very early. If the shield protects your body and the helmet protects your head the chances of survival increase greatly.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 03, 2018, 03:12:56 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on March 02, 2018, 09:28:53 PM
Armor was a lot more common than you might think. Cities like Milan and Cologne had an international arms trade going supplying what was known as munition armor to kings and cities across Europe and the Middle East. The Milanese even went so far as to devise fast methods of decorating armor when the Holy Roman Empire prohibited sales of arms to France intended for battle. They were selling hundreds of complete suits for infantry and archers at a time. Huge inventories were stockpiled and distributed.

Do you know when this was more or less?

QuoteShields are so simple and so useful that just about every society on earth has developed them at one point or another.  Mail was also readily available and used extensively. But helmets and shields seem to develop very early. If the shield protects your body and the helmet protects your head the chances of survival increase greatly.

Definitely. There are a few pop culture examples of how important shields were: the Saxon shield wall; the Spartans, who were told to either come back with their shield or on it (this apparently is true, not just a line in the 300 movie  :P ).

And it's an arms race on both sides, offense and defense. When offensive weapons are better able to pierce defensive armour and shields, they are upgraded, either in design or material or something else. I think when firearms finally came medieval armour became obsolete, much like city walls became rather worthless for defensive purposes once canons and other heavy artillery could easily shoot them even the thickest amongst them down. 

I am thinking just how uncomfortable it must have been to be in a suit of armour on a hot day. :haironfire: And what if nature called after you were all geared up? :o
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on March 03, 2018, 03:22:21 PM
I'll doube check my sources for the rest but leave this here in the meantime...


https://youtu.be/40P8bqA0eHg

(https://youtu.be/40P8bqA0eHg)
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 04, 2018, 02:37:05 PM
^ Thank you.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 16, 2018, 02:10:18 PM
Maybe what medieval battles need is one of these:

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.


*edited to fix image link
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Dave on March 16, 2018, 02:43:10 PM
I was ignoring this thread because I thought it was about a game or summat.

Silly me!

Out of interest this link gives an idea of the cost of living, and death, in medieval and later England.

http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/medprice.htm

Just imagine what an Earl's income of £11000 a year really meant in those days!  It seems to work out to about £8 million a year in today's value in terms of an income on one site. But he would be expected to tun his patch and maintain men at arms out of that.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Magdalena on March 16, 2018, 03:18:32 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 16, 2018, 02:10:18 PM
Maybe what medieval battles need is one of these:

(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29249140_10155304487285233_1794437756249463490_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeHZrffqhxP5zH7QiUH3XcHV2-MKJQEjiIKrFjZ87XjVq8qVjlN01QmDCka5hCmoC5L7_HCVKHrI4OGaWsijvkZfBDww2ECjbEgcHV1nBhdnVg&oh=15ced62371f3c816cb91ca316b515ed2&oe=5B2E9FCC)

:lol:
That's funny. :lol:
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 26, 2018, 01:45:25 AM
(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29511955_2026375024059016_2591077384425488970_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=v1%3AAeETY4RlUcdaFWHI5RmvecUSGjz17GQ_hYILb6oD_LQqGo0Dv8ua4kDI2E8iUXJy9SoRdoDb_Mmeh6x_moaw0wGIZMRftB2Yai9ewmbCQIkz6A&oh=f6fe3510703c7b7f2dec005e8a442a62&oe=5B71421D)

;D
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on March 26, 2018, 01:56:05 AM
Shoot, my other reply seems to have disappeared. Hmm.... anyway, the time period I was talking about was right around the Hundred Years War but there was certainly a lead in as well. Take Ian Lespina from the bathroom video above; his reenactment kit dates to around 1450, and there waa armor in general circulation before that. The guilds making helmets in previous centuries gradually grew into the industrial operations of the late medieval period.

A full suit didn't spring into existence all of a sudden. There were coats and pairs of plates made to give greater protection to the torso that gradually developed into the full breast and back plates later on. Lames protecting the upper arms developed into full arm protection. All the while there was a lot of mail armor being produced and used. One of the first things William did after securing England was set up a wire turning facility in London to better supply his armies.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 26, 2018, 02:21:37 AM
That's interesting. I wonder how effective chain mail armour was at protecting against arrows though. It doesn't seem to be very effective, and as bows and arrows "evolved", maybe the material used and type of armour had to as well?

I read somewhere that bodkin arrows would pierce armour more than they broader arrowhead type, and as a result plate armour changed shape slightly to better deflect incoming arrows. I don't know if it's true, though. This would have happened more or less around the time of Henry V's victory at Agincourt. 
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on March 26, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
I can't say how effective mail was against arrows. There has been quite a bit of testing done in recent years and what I have seen appears inconclusive. A padded garment offers similar protection in some testing. There is also a lot of variations in mail construction. Butted rings are comparatively weak with riveted mail offering very good protection and brazed rings being nearly impervious. I don't know the historical basis for brazed mail though. It's possible this was done but seems unlikely to me.

Plate is another story entirely. A good reproduction will deflect arrows from very heavy bows. I'll look for a test in Sweeden where a 140lb longbow failed to penetrate at nearly point blank range. You could, of course, make a very crude reproduction and pierce it easily. Lots of flat surfaces and thin sheet isn't resistant to much abuse.

I have a suspicion that sources who mention arrows piercing plate armor mention it specifically because of how infrequently it occurred. Even at Agincourt Frenchman made it all the way to the English lines unharmed. A large portion of the casualties early in the battle were crossbow men who had been denied their shields - a specialist soldier who had to fight in a particular way and had bad weather working against him...
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 26, 2018, 02:53:43 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on March 26, 2018, 02:43:02 AM
I can't say how effective mail was against arrows. There has been quite a bit of testing done in recent years and what I have seen appears inconclusive. A padded garment offers similar protection in some testing. There is also a lot of variations in mail construction. Butted rings are comparatively weak with riveted mail offering very good protection and brazed rings being nearly impervious. I don't know the historical basis for brazed mail though. It's possible this was done but seems unlikely to me.

Plate is another story entirely. A good reproduction will deflect arrows from very heavy bows. I'll look for a test in Sweeden where a 140lb longbow failed to penetrate at nearly point blank range. You could, of course, make a very crude reproduction and pierce it easily. Lots of flat surfaces and thin sheet isn't resistant to much abuse.

I have a suspicion that sources who mention arrows piercing plate armor mention it specifically because of how infrequently it occurred. Even at Agincourt Frenchman made it all the way to the English lines unharmed. A large portion of the casualties early in the battle were crossbow men who had been denied their shields - a specialist soldier who had to fight in a particular way and had bad weather working against him...

That's interesting info.  ;D

But crossbows are more powerful than longbows, aren't they? As in they pack a heavier punch even if one has to take longer to reload them and all...
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: jumbojak on March 26, 2018, 04:10:31 AM
Not necessarily. A crossbow is shorter in the arms so a heavier crossbow can have the same power as a longer, lighter traditional bow. If you look at hunting regulations a crossbow has to be quite a bit heavier in the pull to be considered acceptable, at least around here.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:47:33 PM
Another thing to note is that crossbows often fired bolts that had a smaller and sharper tip than arrows. They had good penetration power against both plate and chain.

Crossbow bolt:
(https://www.medievalcrossbow.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Medieval-Crossbow-Bolts.jpg)

Arrow:
(https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/info_images/0612128700_pfeil_arrow_mittelalter_jagdpfeil.jpg)

Crossbows could fire smaller things than bows because bows had to fire arrows long enough to pull back and still keep the shaft against the bow to help with aiming.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 02:20:11 PM
Civil war! :lol:

(https://scontent.fpoa13-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/29597457_10210955740314383_7528529711066739975_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=8ab2ddc9917280f15e5ad1adb021bf72&oe=5B75902F)
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: jumbojak on March 26, 2018, 04:10:31 AM
Not necessarily. A crossbow is shorter in the arms so a heavier crossbow can have the same power as a longer, lighter traditional bow. If you look at hunting regulations a crossbow has to be quite a bit heavier in the pull to be considered acceptable, at least around here.

Cool, I didn't know that.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 02:23:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:47:33 PM
Another thing to note is that crossbows often fired bolts that had a smaller and sharper tip than arrows. They had good penetration power against both plate and chain.

Crossbow bolt:
(https://www.medievalcrossbow.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Medieval-Crossbow-Bolts.jpg)

Arrow:
(https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/info_images/0612128700_pfeil_arrow_mittelalter_jagdpfeil.jpg)

Crossbows could fire smaller things than bows because bows had to fire arrows long enough to pull back and still keep the shaft against the bow to help with aiming.

Yes but there are arrows with narrower arrowheads though?

(https://static.webshopapp.com/shops/032318/files/011871107/historical-bodkin-arrow.jpg)
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Davin on April 02, 2018, 03:24:30 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 02, 2018, 02:23:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 26, 2018, 03:47:33 PM
Another thing to note is that crossbows often fired bolts that had a smaller and sharper tip than arrows. They had good penetration power against both plate and chain.

Crossbow bolt:
https://www.medievalcrossbow.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Medieval-Crossbow-Bolts.jpg (https://www.medievalcrossbow.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Medieval-Crossbow-Bolts.jpg)

Arrow:
https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/info_images/0612128700_pfeil_arrow_mittelalter_jagdpfeil.jpg (https://www.battlemerchant.com/images/product_images/info_images/0612128700_pfeil_arrow_mittelalter_jagdpfeil.jpg)

Crossbows could fire smaller things than bows because bows had to fire arrows long enough to pull back and still keep the shaft against the bow to help with aiming.

Yes but there are arrows with narrower arrowheads though?

(https://static.webshopapp.com/shops/032318/files/011871107/historical-bodkin-arrow.jpg)
Still not as effective due to the length and feathers. The Crossbow bolts were closer to bullets.

Other advantages of the crossbow is a smaller form with equal to more power. Consistent power when shooting. A person using one could set it and then sit there and wait without having to spend too much more energy holding the arrow back waiting to fire. Because the bolts were smaller than arrows, they were also less affected by wind.
Title: Re: Medieval and fantasy fight scenes
Post by: Asmodean on April 02, 2018, 03:31:57 PM
An arrow warps in flight... I wonder if that happens with a crossbow bolt. Because if not, that would aalso go a long way in explaining its armor penetration efficiency...

...after a very quick search, I found this high speed cam, and it does look like the projectile is more laterally stable in flight. Any one have a better high speed cam of a crossbow bolt? Preferably fired from something period-accurate?



(Arrow below. Looks pretty modern, but there is still a good deal of flexing. I suppose that may benefit digging into flesh or chainmail, but not so much plate)