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"choose to believe"

Started by pjkeeley, October 09, 2007, 05:35:09 AM

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pjkeeley

I spotted McQ using the phrase "choose to believe" in another thread. Whether or not it was supposed to be taken literally is another question, but actually I've seen this phrase used all over the place and by people of all different stripes, so it raises some interesting questions.

What does it mean to "choose to believe"? Is this a misleading phrase? Is belief ever a choice? What the heck is a "belief" anyway?

IMO, belief isn't a choice. It's what happens when you think about stuff and assess how likely it is that something is true. If I believe there is a pair of scissors in the kitchen drawer, for example, then it means that I suspect that they are probably there, based on the understanding that the drawer is where they're usually kept, and perhaps a recollection of having put them back in the drawer recently after using them. I don't choose to think that way, but I might choose not to act on my belief, and instead look for the scissors elsewhere.

Thus I'm an atheist not because I chose to believe that there is no God. I think that would imply a 50-50 expectation of whether God exists or not. If I had no inclination either way, perhaps I could choose one or the other for no reason at all. But most people aren't in this position. They are swayed by things they are told, whether by preachers or by scientists, and so on. Beliefs are in this way formed rather than chosen.

What is also interesting to me is the idea that people often don't believe the things they claim to believe. An example might be a theist who is afraid of dying, yet believes an eternal paradise is awaiting her in heaven. This is known in psychology as "cognitive dissonance". We all have this, some more than others.

Another interesting question is how "faith" is different from belief. I think faith is more of a choice than belief. Where belief is your gut feeling, faith means actively staking trust in something you don't know for certain.

So, what do you "believe"?

SabineMaia

#1
That's an interesting question, and one I've been thinking about  a lot lately, sinced I started reading Michael Shermer's book "How We Believe."

In it he cites a study about identical and fraternal twins raised apart, and that identical twins are twice as likely to have a similar religiosity than fraternal twins. The scientists who conducted the study went on to say that "genetic factors account for approximately 50 percent of the observed variance in our measures."

If a genetic predisposition for religiosity really does exist, can someone choose to believe or not? For example, I've been an atheist pretty much all of my life, but there was a time when I thought religious people knew something I didn't, so I wanted to find out. I explored churches, hung out with "spiritual" people, and I tried to make myself believe. In the end, I went back to atheism, because no matter how hard I tried, I didn't believe. The choice I made wasn't about believing or not, it was about whether to bother to pretend anymore.

That was a little off-topic, in a way, wasn't it? Did I even answer a question?

a_jaynepayne

#2
I agree with it being "pretending" to believe...that's what it was for me anyway...like pretending ghosts are real and monsters and red-eyed demons when I'm watching a scary movie...I'm not however gonna live my live like they are.  That's one thing that changed my mind about god, was I felt the same way about god as I did about imaginary scary  crap...it was fun to pretend it was real but I realized I don't go around carrying holy water and garlic cloves to fend off any potential vampires, so why was I doing it with religion?  I hope that made sense...

I like the biological thing you were talking about too, I've always wondered if maybe there is something genetic about believers and non believers.  Maybe some people just don't have it in them to let go of it.
I LOVE GEORGE CARLIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  "It's all b.s. and it's bad for ya!

McQ

#3
Quote from: "pjkeeley"I spotted McQ using the phrase "choose to believe" in another thread. Whether or not it was supposed to be taken literally is another question, but actually I've seen this phrase used all over the place and by people of all different stripes, so it raises some interesting questions.

What does it mean to "choose to believe"? Is this a misleading phrase? Is belief ever a choice? What the heck is a "belief" anyway?

IMO, belief isn't a choice. It's what happens when you think about stuff and assess how likely it is that something is true. If I believe there is a pair of scissors in the kitchen drawer, for example, then it means that I suspect that they are probably there, based on the understanding that the drawer is where they're usually kept, and perhaps a recollection of having put them back in the drawer recently after using them. I don't choose to think that way, but I might choose not to act on my belief, and instead look for the scissors elsewhere.

Thus I'm an atheist not because I chose to believe that there is no God. I think that would imply a 50-50 expectation of whether God exists or not. If I had no inclination either way, perhaps I could choose one or the other for no reason at all. But most people aren't in this position. They are swayed by things they are told, whether by preachers or by scientists, and so on. Beliefs are in this way formed rather than chosen.

What is also interesting to me is the idea that people often don't believe the things they claim to believe. An example might be a theist who is afraid of dying, yet believes an eternal paradise is awaiting her in heaven. This is known in psychology as "cognitive dissonance". We all have this, some more than others.

Another interesting question is how "faith" is different from belief. I think faith is more of a choice than belief. Where belief is your gut feeling, faith means actively staking trust in something you don't know for certain.

So, what do you "believe"?

Well, I've read and re-read your post pj, and I'm either not understanding you still or there is no significant difference in what you and I are saying. It seems to me you've just worded it differently.

Would the phrase "accept the likelihood of" be more appropriate than the word "choose"?

I would disagree that the word belief implies a gut feeling. My "beliefs"...the things I choose to accept as true, are based on observation, statistical probability, on experience, on anything solid and concrete that I have to go by. So I'm guessing that maybe we are just not finding the same common ground to start with regarding definitions of words.

I used the phrase "choose to believe" to mean, in a very common context, "the things which one accepts as true". That's all. So perhaps there is just a misconception of how we're each parsing things.

It'll be good to see thoughts on this, because just when you think you're stating something clearly (meaning me and all of us), someone reminds you that you might not be as clear as you think.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Will

#4
I believe in a rational and scientific universe. I choose to believe it because without evidence and reason, my perception of the universe breaks down on a fundamental level. I can't be sure of anything, and an irrational universe is counterintuitive to me as a rationalist.

It's actually this belief that ironically is the basis upon which my atheism, or more appropriately my lack of belief in the supernatural, is based.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

Jeremiah

#5
Quote from: "pjkeeley"What does it mean to "choose to believe"? Is this a misleading phrase? Is belief ever a choice? What the heck is a "belief" anyway?

IMO, belief isn't a choice.

Another interesting question is how "faith" is different from belief. I think faith is more of a choice than belief. Where belief is your gut feeling, faith means actively staking trust in something you don't know for certain.


People choose to believe all types of stuff. Like I choose to believe my Jags will defeat the Colts on Monday
I choose to believe my senses but I have no proof that they are indeed reliable but I choose to believe for convenience. I also choose to believe that my memory is somewhat reliable but I can not prove this either because it is my memory I am using to test the reliability of my memory. I also choose to believe people sometimes know what they are talking about therefore I give their words a listen and some thought.  

As far as faith... I believe the putative belief of the definition of faith is belief without proof. Although I choose to believe it means something else.

pjkeeley

#6
QuotePeople choose to believe all types of stuff. Like I choose to believe my Jags will defeat the Colts on Monday
I choose to believe my senses but I have no proof that they are indeed reliable but I choose to believe for convenience. I also choose to believe that my memory is somewhat reliable but I can not prove this either because it is my memory I am using to test the reliability of my memory. I also choose to believe people sometimes know what they are talking about therefore I give their words a listen and some thought.
I don't think you're really choosing to believe those things though. You either believe them or you don't. The choice is whether or not you take your beliefs seriously, or act on them, or tell people what they are, or whatever. But actually believing something isn't a choice.

Jeremiah

#7
"You either believe them or you don't" – Pjkeeley (Sounds like a choice to me)

Quote from: "pjkeeley"I don't think you're really choosing to believe those things though........ But actually believing something isn't a choice.

If that is what you choose to believe than that is your choice. I choose to believe that I am more familiar with my mental facilities than you. So I am going to choose to believe that I remember past occurrences where I made these distinctions. And than actively made a choice in which direction to believe fully aware that there was no universal law binding my choices in a certain direction. Although I also choose to believe that my memory does not have a 100% accuracy rate and therefore is prone to error. While I choose not to believe all my memories are fallacious. I do choose to believe that fallacy in my recollection is possible, which means there is a possibility your right and I never made those choices that I remember making. But I remember at many times in my life making choices in what to hold as a belief and what not to hold as beliefs. I also remember other individuals of all walks of life testifying they too have this capability. So because of the evidence I have available, I am going to choose to believe that my assumption holds the likelihood of being closer to the mark than yours does. That I am going to choose to believe that I have freewill over my beliefs. So if my assumption is true than I will assume that you have freewill to believe your assumption is true. I than would like to point out if beliefs are not of choice than how is it that two individuals like us have two different beliefs that each believe to be true but yet they counter each other? People make choices about what to believe all the time and everyone is free to base these choices off what they believe to be true.
   
"Men freely believe that which they desire." - Julius Caesar

pjkeeley

#8
Quote"You either believe them or you don't" – Pjkeeley (Sounds like a choice to me)
No. There's difference between sentences that infer choice and those that don't. If I said to you: "Jeremiah, you are either a mammal or you're not", you would not infer from that sentence that there was a choice involved. But since you're starting from the premise that belief is a choice, of course you see choice in my statement. That's begging the question.

QuoteI remember at many times in my life making choices in what to hold as a belief and what not to hold as beliefs.
I believe that all you were doing was identifying which beliefs were strongest (logical, plausible, justified, etc.) and which were worse or unreasonable. The choice is in how you reflect the way you preference different beliefs. But the beliefs themselves aren't chosen.

Quoteif beliefs are not of choice than how is it that two individuals like us have two different beliefs that each believe to be true but yet they counter each other?
Because we base our beliefs on different things. Experiences, information, upbringing, personality, social conditioning, etc.

ryanvc76

#9
I'll have to agree that belief is not a choice.

When I was younger and being dropped off at Sunday school every week, I wanted to fit in with the group and believe the stuff they were saying.  It just wouldn't take.  I felt like I was just pretending and was constantly worried that they would figure me out.  I was a young child at the time and society didn't make atheism an acceptable option.

Bottom line - I had already developed beliefs and even though I wanted to change and fit in, it just wasn't possible.  

It wasn't until I was about 19 or so that I finally "came out" of the religious fog.  It was at this time that I realized I didn't have to pretend; I finally decided to stop fighting what I already believed.  That is where the only choice takes place; you decide to keep pretending or you cut the crap and go with what YOU have learned to be true.
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http://www.vancleave.de
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"[The Bible] has noble poetry in it... and some good morals and a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies." - Mark Twain

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

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SteveS

#10
Okay - I'll chip in too - I don't think what beliefs I hold are a matter of conscious choice.  I "discover" what I believe.  It happens somewhere at a lower level in my mind then the conscious decision-making part.

I decide what I want to eat for breakfast.  I believe I know what I ate for breakfast yesterday.  I don't choose to believe that I had an orange yesterday.  Especially if I really believe I had cereal.  Because that would be crazy, right?

Said another way - I believe that science is a reliable tool by which to discover truths about reality.  I don't choose to believe this, my rational mind simply accepts that science is reliable (based on experience and methodology).  I can't choose to not believe this.  But - I choose to seek out scientific explanations for things.  When I come across something I'm unfamiliar with, I do make a choice: I choose to see what science and scientists have to say about it (rather than consulting astrologers, priests, mystics, weird people in alleyways, my grandma, the farmer's almanac, whatever).

So, if I said, "I choose to believe in the explanatory power of science", I guess I'd really be saying that I believe science is reliable, and I choose to educate myself on points-of-interest by consulting the scientific consideration of the topic.  Maybe that's sort of how other mean similar phrases?

Summary: I don't choose to believe, but I do choose how to use my beliefs.  Does that make sense, or am I just talking out of my beer-mug?

Jeremiah

#11
Quote from: "pjkeeley"I believe that all you were doing

I believe you have no idea what I was doing.  


"Autosuggestion (or the related autogenic training) is a process by which an individual trains the subconscious mind to believe something, or systematically schematizes the person's own mental associations, usually for a given purpose. This is accomplished through self-hypnosis methods or repetitive, constant self-affirmations, and may be seen as a form of self-induced brainwashing. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosuggestion

a_jaynepayne

#12
Well crap...does this all mean I can't "choose to believe" in vampires and witches on Halloween?  DAMNIT!!! There goes the whole season.
I LOVE GEORGE CARLIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  "It's all b.s. and it's bad for ya!

SteveS

#13
Nah - you can - just be careful!  If you choose to believe in vampires, for example, then make damn well sure you choose to believe they are afraid of garlic.  Then you'll be okay.

MysticalChicken

#14
Quote from: "SteveS"Nah - you can - just be careful!  If you choose to believe in vampires, for example, then make damn well sure you choose to believe they are afraid of garlic.  Then you'll be okay.

Must quote (paraphrase, rather) from Lore Sjöberg's Book of Ratings here:

"As a food, garlic gets an A+, but as the Achilles heel of undead bloodsucking demons, I dunno.  It sounds like an insult gone awry.  'Gee, Hans, I don't know how we're going to get rid of this "vampire" of yours.  Have you tried breathing on it?'"

Funniest book ever.  I'm working on memorizing the whole thing.

"Down in the hall, embedded in walls, hear them screaming.  Stashed in a bar, a brain in a jar, no one sees them.  Sucking them blind and draining their minds, hear them screaming.  Stas