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"Ask a Christian!"

Started by Cforcerunner, August 05, 2011, 09:18:18 PM

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Medusa

Quote from: Cforcerunner on August 06, 2011, 09:27:10 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 10:45:02 AM
Which version of the bible do you find to be the real version?

By version, do you mean translation? Can you clarify the question. By "real" do you mean authoritative?

Sorry.
Catholic bible.
Protestant bible
KJV
etc etc. Seems there are way too many versions depending upon how you want to spin God in your own image.

It makes me a little iffy when trying to justify the validity of THE word of God when first you have to ask 'well...which word exactly?'

*I'm a former Catholic. I'm almost certain our bible was different than yours. Know what I mean? We have extra OT books.
She has the blood of reptile....just underneath her skin...

iSok

#31
Quote from: Cforcerunner on August 05, 2011, 11:53:46 PM
Quote from: Tank on August 05, 2011, 11:08:40 PM
Why aren't you a Muslim?

The same reason I am not mormon. I believe joseph smith/muhammad claim to be subsequent prophets following Jesus' revelation, as they highly condoned the person of Jesus. I found Islam to be confusing in this sense. They revere muhammad as the last and greatest prophet, yet Jesus is still found during the end of days? They created mandatory rituals when Jesus said days of the law were already fulfilled?

If someone here could represent an islamic belief system to me in a persuasive manner, I am all ears. My research of Muhummad simply did not compel me as the revelation of the divine as Jesus did.

Hello Cforcerunner,


Just to explain the Islamic belief system as you've asked.
According to the Qur'an the goal of humanity is the path to God and each nation has it's own set of rules (religion) to walk that path.
Muslims believe that religion is progressive and Islam is the seal of all the religions that have gone by in the past.
We don't believe in God as an old man with a grey beard, but God is a Reality, the only Reality and we are just shadows compared to God.
And this can be explained in depth, but I will further refrain from that.

About Christ coming back in the last days.
The reason for this is because it will be the nation of Christ (secular Europe) that will give birth to the anti-Christ, which we call Masih-Dajjal (The false Messiah).
Islamic scholars still do not agree whether the Hadith literature talk of a methapor or a living being or both.
The anti-Christ is described as a technological advanced (he can control the weather and do great things) one eyed being with kafir (non-believer) written on his frontal lobe and the illiterate can also read that he is a non-believer. The one eye points out to the obsession with rationality, while it's one of the domains of the human intellect it will be
seen as THE intellect and forgetting a faculty like the imagination (the other eye).
People would forget God. The anti-Christ would then spread over the world with his teachings and put misery in the hearts of man till Christ returns.
(If you are comfortable being a Christian, then stay a Christian)

I hope it's a bit more clear now.

Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Ihateyoumike

If (and/or when) life is found to exist elsewhere in the universe, and possibly life forms with clearly different origins than terrestrial life are discovered... How will that affect your belief in what your bible has to say?
Prayers that need no answer now, cause I'm tired of who I am
You were my greatest mistake, I fell in love with your sin
Your littlest sin.

Cforcerunner

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 07, 2011, 12:52:24 AM
First of all I'd like to say that it's cool that you're willing to be questioned about your beliefs here. That's rare ;D

My question would be: to you, what does it mean to say that the bible is divinely inspired? That god talked directly to the people that wrote it? Or that those people were philosophizing about existence and the meaning of existence and came up with those answers? Or something else?

"Divine Inspiration" indicates that the scriptures are "God-breathed and useful for teaching".

I believe God chose to express His presence to the authors and they wrote they recorded their unique experience. The genre of books found in the bible vary greatly, some poetic, some historical, and some philosophical. But incorporate the same Judeo-Christian ideals.

Cforcerunner

Quote from: Medusa on August 07, 2011, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: Cforcerunner on August 06, 2011, 09:27:10 PM
Quote from: Medusa on August 06, 2011, 10:45:02 AM
Which version of the bible do you find to be the real version?

By version, do you mean translation? Can you clarify the question. By "real" do you mean authoritative?

Sorry.
Catholic bible.
Protestant bible
KJV
etc etc. Seems there are way too many versions depending upon how you want to spin God in your own image.

It makes me a little iffy when trying to justify the validity of THE word of God when first you have to ask 'well...which word exactly?'

*I'm a former Catholic. I'm almost certain our bible was different than yours. Know what I mean? We have extra OT books.

Yes, there are many translations, but that shouldn't cause too much confusion as to which is the "real" version. My preference is the New American Standard Bible, which is generally considered the best word-for-word translation, however I am saving up to attend seminary within the next few year, so I am hoping to read the original greek text for myself :P

As far as you being catholic....I'm sorry :D
Unfortunately, the catholic church as had a LONG historical tradition, many tenants which has  certainly gone astray from the beliefs of the early church. That being said, I don't have a problem with books like Maccabees being considered canon, as they have strong historic roots. I suppose I'll have to do some homework and see why Martin Luther had such a fuss over the book.





Cforcerunner

#35
Quote from: iSok on August 08, 2011, 04:32:08 AM

Hello Cforcerunner,

Hello sir!  ;D


QuoteJust to explain the Islamic belief system as you've asked.
According to the Qur'an the goal of humanity is the path to God and each nation has it's own set of rules (religion) to walk that path.

This sounds like it has the same problem as culture relativism. So it's a path for me to believe in Christianity being part of America, It's a path for a muslim growing up in saudi arabia to be a muslim. So was it a path for a young boy growing up in Nazi Germany to join the führer?


QuoteMuslims believe that religion is progressive and Islam is the seal of all the religions that have gone by in the past.
We don't believe in God as an old man with a grey beard, but God is a Reality, the only Reality and we are just shadows compared to God.
And this can be explained in depth, but I will further refrain from that.

First, I don't believe Christians generally believe God to be an old man with a grey beard, mainly because the bible describes him as clean shaven.  ;)
(But seriously, God the Father is not seen as some sort actual of father, but is described to be as one in metaphoric sense as being the creator the external world. I believe this is the consensus among most judeo, christian, and muslim worldview)

The way you describe God is Reality seems quite abstract and sounds similar to a form of pantheism, so a little more clarity would be great.

QuoteAbout Christ coming back in the last days.
The reason for this is because it will be the nation of Christ (secular Europe) that will give birth to the anti-Christ, which we call Masih-Dajjal (The false Messiah).
Islamic scholars still do not agree whether the Hadith literature talk of a methapor or a living being or both.
The anti-Christ is described as a technological advanced (he can control the weather and do great things) one eyed being with kafir (non-believer) written on his frontal lobe and the illiterate can also read that he is a non-believer. The one eye points out to the obsession with rationality, while it's one of the domains of the human intellect it will be
seen as THE intellect and forgetting a faculty like the imagination (the other eye).
People would forget God. The anti-Christ would then spread over the world with his teachings and put misery in the hearts of man till Christ returns.

Interesting, I'd like to some excerpts regarding the last days according to the qur'an if you get a chance! Anyways, I think the core belief is similar to that of Christianity, that Jesus saves humanity from the antichrist. Why then, do muslims not regard Jesus as divine as he says he was or at least consider him among the greatest of prophets?




Cforcerunner

Quote from: Ihateyoumike on August 09, 2011, 07:28:30 AM
If (and/or when) life is found to exist elsewhere in the universe, and possibly life forms with clearly different origins than terrestrial life are discovered... How will that affect your belief in what your bible has to say?

I don't think it would have much to do with what I believe in.

If aliens in the most scientifically fictional sense actually existed somewhere, I don't think their existence would have much to do with the moral imperatives or purpose of mankind.

But I suppose it would be pretty cool!

iSok

#37
Quote from: Cforcerunner on August 10, 2011, 11:52:35 PM

This sounds like it has the same problem as culture relativism. So it's a path for me to believe in Christianity being part of America, It's a path for a muslim growing up in saudi arabia to be a muslim. So was it a path for a young boy growing up in Nazi Germany to join the führer?

I think it's save to say that Hitler wasn't really a prophet of God.

According to the Qur'an each nation had their messengers, and each nation was told in their own way to believe in The One God.

(35:24) We have sent you with the Truth to proclaim good news and to warn. Never has there been a nation but a warner came to it.

(29:18) And if you give the lie (to the Messenger), then many nations before you also gave the lie (to their Messengers). The Messenger is charged with no other duty than to deliver the Message in clear terms."


So you have a whole range of different revelations, from Taoism (The Tao is seen as the Cosmic Unity, everything comes from the Tao, everything returns to the Tao) to Hinduism who believe in one God but worship multiple attributes of God in different forms.


Quote

The way you describe God is Reality seems quite abstract and sounds similar to a form of pantheism, so a little more clarity would be great.
You should read post 104 and then post 113 (Of this thread http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7699.90)to for a short introduction into Islam and how Islam sees religions like Christianity. If you are done reading, I'll add a third part.

QuoteInteresting, I'd like to some excerpts regarding the last days according to the qur'an if you get a chance! Anyways, I think the core belief is similar to that of Christianity, that Jesus saves humanity from the antichrist. Why then, do muslims not regard Jesus as divine as he says he was or at least consider him among the greatest of prophets?

The Qur'an talks of signs but there is a very important Hadith. The Hadith is like the Christian Bible, written down by the companions of the Prophet.
The most reliable sources are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. This Hadith sums up Islam very well by the angel Gabriel also known as the Hadith of Gabriel.

'Umar ibn al-Khattab (the second Rightly Guided Caliph) reported: One day when we were with God's messenger, a man with very white clothing and very black hair came to us. No mark of travel was visible on him, and none of us recognized him. Sitting down before the Prophet, leaning his knees against his, and placing his hands on his thighs, the stranger said, "Tell me, Muhammad, about submission [islam ]."

The Prophet replied, "Submission means that you should bear witness that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is God's messenger, that you should perform the ritual prayer, pay the alms tax, fast during Ramadan, and make the pilgrimage to the Ka'aba if you are able to go there."

The man said, "You have spoken the truth." (We were amazed at this man's questioning the Prophet and then declaring that he had spoken the truth).

The stranger spoke a second time, saying, "Now tell me about faith [iman ]."

The Prophet replied, "Faith means that you have faith in God, His angels, His books, His messengers and the Last Day, and that you have faith in the measuring out, both its good and its evil."

Remarking that the Prophet again had spoken the truth, the stranger then said, "Now tell me about virtue [ihsan ] (that is, about doing what is beautiful)."

The Prophet replied, "Virtue—doing what is beautiful—means that you should worship God as if you see Him, for even if you do not see Him, He sees you."

Yet again the man said, "Tell me about the Hour (that is, the coming of the Day of Judgment)."

The Prophet replied, "About that he who is questioned knows no more than the questioner."

The stranger said, "Then tell me about its marks."

The Prophet replied, "The slave girl will give birth to her mistress, and you will see the barefoot, the naked, the destitute, and the shepherds vying with each other in building."

At that, the stranger went away.

After I had waited for a long time, the Prophet spoke to me: "Do you know who the questioner was, 'Umar?" I replied, "God and His messenger know best." The Prophet said, "He was Gabriel. He came to teach you your religion."


So the two most important signs are according to this Hadith.

- People will compete in constructing high buildings and not neccesary physical buildings but it's also a methapor
for man-made ideologies which are eventually doomed to fall down. It also points out to the current trend
in countries like Dubai, people forgetting the poor and needy and only boosting their ego.

- The slave girl giving birth is a methapor for the disturbed relation between parents and their children, children will no longer
have respect for their parents and will see their parents as a burden. Within Islamic tradition this is
a terrible situation, as the Qur'an demands respect for one's parent.

Qur'an:
(46:15) We have enjoined man to be kind to his parents. In pain did his mother bear him and in pain did she give birth to him.



According to a Hadith.
A man came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship? The Prophet said: Your mother. The man said, 'Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man further asked, 'Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man asked again, 'Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your father. (Bukhari, Muslim).


There some other signs, I copied those that are happening now.

Books/writing will be widespread and (religious) knowledge will be low.
Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open.
Rain will be acidic or burning. (Ecological disaster)
Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent.
Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time.
The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans.
People will hop between the clouds and the earth.
Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing. (Ecological diaster, betraying God's vicegerency)
A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home. (Technological advancement)
and so on...

About Jesus; he's seen as one of the greatest of all prophets sent by God, but not divine within Islam.
Islam is very critical of the trinity since it disturbs God's unity, it shares it's view with the unitarian church.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.



Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Medusa

Do you believe in the trinity?
She has the blood of reptile....just underneath her skin...

Cforcerunner

@isok

Thanks for the reply, it sounds like a great discussion and I'm sure I have more questions to ask and will look into those threads you've referred to when I have a good hour to sit down and read through. But I think it would be better to take this discussion on another thread or through private messaging

Quote from: Medusa on August 11, 2011, 07:20:34 AM
Do you believe in the trinity?

Yes, I believe in the Father and ultimate creator, Jesus who is the messiah or God in the form  of flesh, and the Holy Spirit which is the divine bridge that connects humans to God. 


Tank

Quote from: Cforcerunner on August 11, 2011, 07:42:03 PM
@isok

Thanks for the reply, it sounds like a great discussion and I'm sure I have more questions to ask and will look into those threads you've referred to when I have a good hour to sit down and read through. But I think it would be better to take this discussion on another thread or through private messaging


I think that using the forum PM messaging system to carry out a private discussion that would be perfectly acceptable on the forum, and highly interesting to watch, would be inappropriate. If you wish to have a private discussion exchange email addresses and do it that way please. Personally I would be delighted to watch a Christian and a Muslim having a discussion here.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

iSok

Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2011, 08:01:06 PM


I think that using the forum PM messaging system to carry out a private discussion that would be perfectly acceptable on the forum, and highly interesting to watch, would be inappropriate. If you wish to have a private discussion exchange email addresses and do it that way please. Personally I would be delighted to watch a Christian and a Muslim having a discussion here.


That would be interesting indeed Tank. But the problem here is that I know very little of Christianity and Cforcerunner doesn't know much about Islam.
It would end up in exchanging information.
Qur'an [49:13] - "O Mankind, We created you all from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Verily the noblest of you in the sight of God is the most God-fearing of you. Surely God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

Cforcerunner

Quote from: Tank on August 11, 2011, 08:01:06 PM
Quote from: Cforcerunner on August 11, 2011, 07:42:03 PM
@isok

Thanks for the reply, it sounds like a great discussion and I'm sure I have more questions to ask and will look into those threads you've referred to when I have a good hour to sit down and read through. But I think it would be better to take this discussion on another thread or through private messaging


I think that using the forum PM messaging system to carry out a private discussion that would be perfectly acceptable on the forum, and highly interesting to watch, would be inappropriate. If you wish to have a private discussion exchange email addresses and do it that way please. Personally I would be delighted to watch a Christian and a Muslim having a discussion here.


Agreed tank, but I really intended this particular "Ask a Christian" thread to have fairly clean cut FAQ structure with intentional avoidance on tangents. I know Whitney did a great job splitting one of my other threads. So if the same thing could be done here, I'd be more than happy to continue the discussion on another public thread.

xSilverPhinx

Were you always a Christian or did you convert to Christianity? if the first, then you consider the teaching of religion to children as indoctrination? If the last, what caused you to convert?
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Cforcerunner

#44
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on August 12, 2011, 06:07:13 AM
Were you always a Christian or did you convert to Christianity? if the first, then you consider the teaching of religion to children as indoctrination? If the last, what caused you to convert?

I don't think I was always Christian, my parents were always on and off again service attenders. But I would consider myself agnostic, but always intrigued by religion.

My, "turning point" occurred during a random youth retreat, a speaker spoke and described the Gospel and the passion of Jesus in way that I never thought about. So I continued hearing more of his sermons and Christianity began making a lot more sense to me. I also had more of a "spiritual experience" during a mission trip in Mexico.

To answer more directly to your question as to the "cause" of my conversion: I am a big believer that argumentation is a poor mean to convert to any religion (the same could be said about highly driven emotions). But the first step for me was to assert that I had some sort of reason to be bothered into existence, and that the way I choose to live out my life in one manner or another will ultimately matter, so the concept of divinity and spirituality was certainly worth investigating.  

But why Christianity? why must I be Christian? My only answer is Jesus. I certainly am all for the bible, but I LOVE the gospels. His intuition, his leadership, his sense of morality and understanding of God. I believe he is who claims to be and he did what he said he would. Rationality (as nice as it is, and I would by no means call my faith irrational) isn't the cornerstone of my conversion, but more the impulsion to follow in his wake.