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islamophobia

Started by jduster, September 18, 2010, 06:39:44 AM

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Will

Quote from: "Tank"But as the Quran is the received word of God rewriting the Quran would be an absolute denial of a Muslim's faith.  To be a Muslim is to believe the Quran, to believe the Quaran is to be a Muslim. The relationship between a Muslim and the Quran is very different from that between a Christian and the Bible. To the Christian the Bible is very much the collected stories of people about Jesus. For a Muslim the Quarn is in effect Allah's closest possible incarnation on Earth, it is inviolate.
All religious texts are intentionally vague, which leads to different interpretations. Many Muslims have a similar relationship with the Qur'an as Christians the Bible. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible is perfect, per the Bible's teachings. Some Muslims believe the Qur'an is open to a certain extent of interpretation. That's why there are a lot of (particularly younger) Muslims around today that have no problem with gay people and who occasionally drink alcohol or eat pork. It's difficult to speak of any group in generalities, and Islam is a 1.5 billion person group. There's bound to be a lot of variation.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

epepke

Quote from: "humblesmurph"I'm curious about this as well Poop.  Christians don't seem particularly violent, but the New Testament seems to advocate it.  I certainly don't have the bible learnin you possess, could you explain the apparent endorsements of violence in the New Testament?

How about "I do not come to bring peace but a sword"?

Anyway, I've heard a lot about Islamophobia lately.

Since the day after 9/11, there have been exactly four killings within the borders of the United States by Christians that might be termed "Islamophobic."  One was a killing of an actual Muslim, one of a Sikh, and two of Christian Egyptians, one of which was a Copt.

During the same period, there have been at least 35 killings within the borders of the United states by Muslims that might be termed "Islamophilic."  Quite a few were of Jews.  I have not counted "honor" killings, medical neglect, or instances such as "shot six times in the back" when the report didn't say they died.  For example, a Muslim got into a Jewish center and shot four people, but only one died, so I'm only counting one.

So we have 4 relevant killings out of a population of at least 200 million Christians, and 35 relevant killings out of a population of at most 7 million Muslims.

Now, 35 killings isn't all that much, considering.  But 4 is even less, and if you do the math, you'll find that at a per-capita rate of murderous Muslims in the US is at least two and possibly three orders of magnitude greater than that of murderous Christians.  Still, 35 in 9 years is a pretty small number.  When I consistently make assumptions to make Christians sound bad and Muslims sound good, I get a ratio of about 350, and when I use more equitable assumptions, I get ratios in excess of 1000.

Also, of the approximately 100 arrests of suspected terrorists in the US since 9/11, about 1/3 are converts to Islam.  I don't know how many Muslims there are total, but even if we assume that the remaining 2/3 were not Muslim, it still doesn't look all that good for Muslims.

So, if someone wants to say that those 35 killings shouldn't be considered representative of all Muslims, that's fine, and I quite agree.  I don't think that's enough to fear or suspect most Muslims, and I assume that the average Muslim is no worse than the average Christian.  Having said so, however, to believe that there is this vast wave of Islamophobia sweeping the US is quite literally psychotic.  I mean "bee bee bee and baa baa baa and what's the frequency Kenneth" psychotic.  Delusional and completely mad.  Anyone who holds the thought in their minds for 30 seconds has given up any right to be taken seriously on anything for the rest of their lives.  It's taking a 2-3 order of magnitude smaller risk and elevating it to paranoid status while simultaneously declaring a 2-3 order of magnitude higher risk to be insignificant and declare any resulting concern bigoted.  It completely lacks a sense of proportion.

The Magic Pudding

#32
Quote from: "epepke"So we have 4 relevant killings out of a population of at least 200 million Christians, and 35 relevant killings out of a population of at most 7 million Muslims.
How many non Muslims have been killed by Christians in the name of faith lately?
The murder of abortion providers for example.

AreEl

Quote from: "humblesmurph"
Quote from: "AreEl"The Koran advocates violence against infidels and there are many suras (verses) I could bring up to show this. Islam itself was born in violence and has largely grown by violence/coercion. Secular Muslims, however, hold to values similar to those of most sensible people.

Apostate Christianity has grown by the same forces Islam uses but to a lesser extent, as violence isn't part of biblical injunctions. Again, secular Christians hold to the values of the day.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Could you provide some evidence of the relative difference between Christianity and Islam regarding violence? I always thought the Bible contained passages advocating violence against non believers. I was taught in history class that the Crusades were at least as bloody (if not much more so) than whatever the Muslims called their violent mass coercion.

Quote from: "AreEl"Yes, the Bible contains many passages where God advocates violence against non-believers and believers as well. However, the topic here is about islamophobia so to answer your question would be to go off topic.

Yes this thread is about Islamophobia. The idea that Christianity is somehow superior to Islam (implied by what I bolded and italicized) is at the heart of the problem. It's completely on topic.

Islamophobia has nothing to do with Christianity. For example, islamophobia exists in Hindu India. As I've stated before, distrust of others is part of human nature. It is natural. You are born with it and it develops as you age.
''I believe in God...it's his ground crew I have a problem with!''  -a former coworker

Tank

Quote from: "Will"
Quote from: "Tank"But as the Quran is the received word of God rewriting the Quran would be an absolute denial of a Muslim's faith.  To be a Muslim is to believe the Quran, to believe the Quaran is to be a Muslim. The relationship between a Muslim and the Quran is very different from that between a Christian and the Bible. To the Christian the Bible is very much the collected stories of people about Jesus. For a Muslim the Quarn is in effect Allah's closest possible incarnation on Earth, it is inviolate.
All religious texts are intentionally vague, which leads to different interpretations. Many Muslims have a similar relationship with the Qur'an as Christians the Bible. Some Christians believe every word of the Bible is perfect, per the Bible's teachings. Some Muslims believe the Qur'an is open to a certain extent of interpretation. That's why there are a lot of (particularly younger) Muslims around today that have no problem with gay people and who occasionally drink alcohol or eat pork. It's difficult to speak of any group in generalities, and Islam is a 1.5 billion person group. There's bound to be a lot of variation.
You're quite right about generalisations, they are generally not a good idea. However believing the Bible is true is not quite the same thing as believing it to the unadulterated utterances of God as far as I understand this. The Gospels are descriptions of things that the author may have been divinely inspired to write, but they are still the words of the author. The words in the Quran are those of Allah and were simply transcribed by Mohamed. So in this respect the Bible and Quran are fundamentally different. Reinterpreting the Quran is a dangerous thing to try and do as the person doing it would be seen as second guessing Allah, not a good idea.

As Islam has passed around the world it has undoubtedly adapted to suit local customs and traditions, Particularly with regard to orthopraxy; how the religion is observed on a day to day basis. The drinking of alcohol is not proscribed in the Quoran, particular types of fermented drinks are, in particular 'grape wine' however alcohol derived from corn is not. However the sin of intoxication has lead to the pragmatic banning of the consumption of alcohol. I can also understand the lure of Bacon  :drool
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

humblesmurph

Quote from: "AreEl"Islamophobia has nothing to do with Christianity. For example, islamophobia exists in Hindu India. As I've stated before, distrust of others is part of human nature. It is natural. You are born with it and it develops as you age.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't think distrusting one group of people more than another very similar group of people is natural at all.  It's just bigotry.

humblesmurph

Quote from: "epepke"So we have 4 relevant killings out of a population of at least 200 million Christians, and 35 relevant killings out of a population of at most 7 million Muslims.
Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"How many non Muslims have been killed by Christians in the name of faith lately?
The murder of abortion providers for example.

Just figured I'd omit myself from this since I didn't say it.  I don't doubt epeke has a reasonable point, I just can't figure out what it is.

AreEl

Quote from: "humblesmurph"We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't think distrusting one group of people more than another very similar group of people is natural at all. It's just bigotry.

It is natural. Bigotry is an expression of xenophobia. You may not be a bigot. Which group(s) do you distrust?

If you affirm that Christianity has something to do with islamophobia, you'll have to explain how non-Christians can be islamophobes. You'll also have to explain why some Christians are not islamophobes. And, while you're at it, explain how some muslims can be islamophobic. Good luck!

Perhaps you should have a look at Tank's signature line:

''Something is true because it matches reality, not because some well-regarded person said it.''
''I believe in God...it's his ground crew I have a problem with!''  -a former coworker

PoopShoot

Quote from: "AreEl"If you affirm that Christianity has something to do with islamophobia, you'll have to explain how non-Christians can be islamophobes. You'll also have to explain why some Christians are not islamophobes. And, while you're at it, explain how some muslims can be islamophobic. Good luck!
Reality isn't binary.  Islamophobia takes many forms, but the most common one in the US is Christians trying to pretend that America is a Christian nation.
All hail Cancer Jesus!

humblesmurph

Quote from: "PoopShoot"
Quote from: "AreEl"If you affirm that Christianity has something to do with islamophobia, you'll have to explain how non-Christians can be islamophobes. You'll also have to explain why some Christians are not islamophobes. And, while you're at it, explain how some muslims can be islamophobic. Good luck!
Reality isn't binary.  Islamophobia takes many forms, but the most common one in the US is Christians trying to pretend that America is a Christian nation.

Exactly Poop.

AreEl, this tangent of the discussion started by your assertion that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity.  All I did was ask for some evidence for this.  You responded that an explanation of your bald assertion wasn't relevant to the discussion. Then why make the assertion in the first place?

Then you go on to tell me what I have to explain in order to prove a point to you.  As Poop pointed out, your requirements aren't exactly logical.  The mere fact that the vast majority  of Christians don't fear Muslims says nothing about whether Christianity has something to do with the fear of Muslims.  The loudest proponents of anti-Islamic sentiment in the West are Christians.  If you don't agree with that, then I guess there isn't much else to discuss.

AreEl

Quote from: "PoopShoot"Reality isn't binary. Islamophobia takes many forms, but the most common one in the US is Christians trying to pretend that America is a Christian nation.

There is no such thing as a Christian nation. People are Christians; companies or nations cannot be Christian. To even say so betrays one's lack of understanding of what a Christian is.  America is a nation influenced by Christianity, that is the most that can be said.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"AreEl, this tangent of the discussion started by your assertion that Islam is inherently more violent than Christianity. All I did was ask for some evidence for this. You responded that an explanation of your bald assertion wasn't relevant to the discussion. Then why make the assertion in the first place?

You can find this evidence on your own if you are really interested. I didn't respond that my  ''bald assertion wasn't relevant to the discussion,'' as you put it! Scroll up and see what I actually said. As for why I said what I did, I am familiar with the history and development of both Christianity and Islam. I could see from your posts that you are unknowledgeable about both so I was giving you a very short summary. That's it. No value judgements were involved as you so easily assumed. Avoid assuming stuff and jumping to conclusions.

Quote from: "humblesmurph"The loudest proponents of anti-Islamic sentiment in the West are Christians. If you don't agree with that, then I guess there isn't much else to discuss.

So? There are more nominally Christian people in the West, so it stands to reason that there would be more islamophobes among those who call themselves Christian here.  No rocket science is needed to understand this!

Again: distrust of other groups or individuals is rooted in human nature. It is part of who we are and will eventually express itself one way or another both at the individual & cultural levels. At the root of this trait PRIDE sits. Now, which group do you distrust?
''I believe in God...it's his ground crew I have a problem with!''  -a former coworker

PoopShoot

Quote from: "AreEl"There is no such thing as a Christian nation.
Incorrect.  There are no existent Christian nations at the moment, but a Christian theocracy would be exactly that.

QuotePeople are Christians; companies or nations cannot be Christian. To even say so betrays one's lack of understanding of what a Christian is.  
And all true Scotsmen wear nothing under the kilt.  It's true, Dretlin confirmed it.

QuoteAmerica is a nation influenced by Christianity, that is the most that can be said.
And yet there are a few million teabaggers who would disagree with you.
All hail Cancer Jesus!

epepke

Quote from: "The Magic Pudding"
Quote from: "epepke"
Quote from: "humblesmurph"So we have 4 relevant killings out of a population of at least 200 million Christians, and 35 relevant killings out of a population of at most 7 million Muslims.
How many non Muslims have been killed by Christians in the name of faith lately?
The murder of abortion providers for example.

That's a perfectly valid question.  Since the day after 9/11, there has been one murder of a physician who performed abortions by a Christian.

I'm stating facts.  I know they make people feel uncomfortable.  But I think it's complete crap for people to talk about "moderate Muslims" while simultaneously excluding any sort of moderate position about the issue that respects the facts.

One can spin, slant, or interpret the facts, but the facts are the facts, and they are that in the US, currently, there is way more hate violence by Muslims, in absolute terms and especially in per capita terms than that of any other group.

Now, I don't think that these facts automatically justify distrust, hatred of, or fear of Muslims.  However, if there had been 35 killing of, say, Black people by White supremacist, which is pretty analogous, there would be a veritable shitstorm about it.  Yet when Muslims do it, it gets swept under the rug.

I would think that such a shitstorm would also be pretty psychotic, but some reason for concern would be justified.  I think that the sweeping under the rug is also psychotic, as is automatically assuming that anyone who has a valid concern with killings by Muslims is Islamophobic.

In any event, people who weave all this shit about a wave of Islamophobia while sweeping Muslim violence under the rug are in serious need of a Haldol drip, fast, if not Thorazine, and anybody who knows the facts and maintains this special pleading in their minds for more than 30 seconds has given up the right ever to be taken seriously on anything.

humblesmurph

epepke,

You lost me again, but I'm slow sometimes.  Is your basic point that fear of Muslims is reasonable considering their recent violence relative to other religions?

epepke

Quote from: "humblesmurph"Just figured I'd omit myself from this since I didn't say it.  I don't doubt epeke has a reasonable point, I just can't figure out what it is.

Really?  It's pretty simple.  One point is that facts should come first.  People can have differing reasonable opinions, but no opinion that does not acknowledge the facts can be considered reasonable.

One fact is that, currently in the US, Islamic group hate murder is a greater risk than all other forms of hate murder combined.  Another fact is that even Islamic hate murder is a fairly trivial risk compared to other risks of death, including other murders, traffic accidents, influenza, obesity, and smoking.

Given those fact, people can construct a variety of political opinions, all over the spectrum.  However, denying the facts is psychotic.  One could claim, acknowledging the facts, that Islamic hate murder is done by an insignificant percentage of Muslims.  To claim, however, that US Muslims and US Christians are equal in their propensity to do violence is psychotic.  It is a thought disorder, an inability to perceive reality clearly.

I do not much care about political opinions because, as they say, everyone has one and they all stink.  I care a bit more about the psychology behind those opinions, and I care a lot about facts.  I do not like the popular opinion that so long as you are on the "right" side, you can distort, misrepresent, or lie about the facts as much as you want.  I know mine is an unpopular attitude, but I am representing it anyway.