Satan may not be such a bad guy (the Sequel)

[joeactor]

Since the original thread took an odd turn, I thought I'd start a new one off with an interesting thought from a blog.

The author's goal was to research the bible to find the number of deaths caused by Satan vs. the number caused by God.

To summarize the conclusion:
God, 2,128,345+
Satan, 10

The posting is here: Who has killed more, Saton or God?
... with a more in depth count for God here: How many has God Killed?

The author has another site called Skeptic's Annotated Bible (which also covers the Quran and Book of Mormon)

My thoughts: Man!  The big "G" is a badass mofo!
But to be fair, the book was written about God, not Satan.
I woulnd't expect it to have the same level of detailed information.
Then again, that's quite a disparity!

Have at it,
  JoeActor

[Court]

I think part of the reason for the disparity is that Satan can not seem more powerful than God. The book was written by ancient Middle Easterns, who weren't as squeamish about their god being a violent killing-machine as modern Westerners are. So the more people God killed, the more powerful and frightening he was, a good thing when you're trying to keep your people in line via religion.

[fundie]

But have you considered the other side of the coin, namely, that there would have been no death in the world had it not been for satan tempting adam and eve to sin against God?

God created man, not with the intention of him dying, but living forever; however, he gave man free will and allowed satan to tempt him.  Man failed.  Consequently, death was decreed upon adam and his descendents.

But at least that is not the end of the story.  Jesus was tempted but didn't fall, and therefore conquered death for all who would receive Him.  

I find it amazing that people are always so ready to blame God, but not the other fellow, who they say doesn't exist, or even man himself, who gave in to the temptation.

Don't blame God for all the troubles in the world.  That's fair, isnt't it?

[joeactor]

But have you considered the other side of the coin, namely, that there would have been no death in the world had it not been for satan tempting adam and eve to sin against God?

God created man, not with the intention of him dying, but living forever; however, he gave man free will and allowed satan to tempt him.  Man failed.  Consequently, death was decreed upon adam and his descendents.

But at least that is not the end of the story.  Jesus was tempted but didn't fall, and therefore conquered death for all who would receive Him.  

I find it amazing that people are always so ready to blame God, but not the other fellow, who they say doesn't exist, or even man himself, who gave in to the temptation.

Don't blame God for all the troubles in the world.  That's fair, isnt't it?

I agree that the story says Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and that it was their choice to eat of the tree that caused man's downfall.

But if god is omniscient, then he knew when he created Adam and Eve that they would give in to temptation.
Sounds more than a bit cruel to me.

We may have the "free will" to choose from our perspective, but from the perspective of an omniscient being all of our choices are known.  You can't surprise god with your choices if he already knows.

[fundie]

No, joeactor.  Correct.

But, although He knew man would fall, He also knew, and provided for a solution.  

Jesus

[joeactor]

No, joeactor.  Correct.

But, although He knew man would fall, He also knew, and provided for a solution.  

Jesus

Kool... that also jives with the Christian faith.

But what about those who don't choose (or even know) Jesus?

Let's be generous and say that 25% - 30% of the world is some denomination of Christian.

That means that god created 70% - 75% of humanity just so they could burn in hell...
Again, seems awfully cruel to me.

If he ran a business where 70% - 75% of the product he created was destined for the scrap heap, he'd be out of business before he opened!

[Whitney]

There are some who don't believe Satan was in the garden but that the snake was just one of the most intelligent animals and was jealous of the favored status of humans.  The following isn't the best source, but I really didn't care to look forver trying to find what I was talking about:

http://www.infidelguy.com/members/infid ... Satan.html

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Even when looking at the snake as being Satan, this would have been before the fall of Satan when he was still acting as God's messenger:

As he first appears in the Hebrew Bible, Satan is not necessarily evil, much less opposed to God. He appears in both the book of Numbers and in Job as one of God’s obedient servants - a messenger or angel - a word that translates the Hebrew term for messenger (mal’ak) into Greek (angelos). In biblical sources the Hebrew term the satan describes an adversarial role - it is not the name of a particular character. Although Hebrew storytellers occasionally introduced a supernatural character which they called the satan, what they meant was any one of the angels sent by God for the specific purpose of blocking or obstructing human activity. The root stn means "one who opposes, obstructs or acts as adversary."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=270&letter=S

So Satan, appearing as a snake to Eve was only doing his heavenly duties.  This would mean that God wanted Adam and Eve to be tempted, plus why put the tree there in the first place if God didn't want them to be tempted.  

Additionally, from eating the apple Adam and Eve gained knowledge of good and evil...before this they didn't have such knowledge and really couldn't be expected to know right from wrong...sounds like a set up to me, so it is probably best that believers view the whole story as a allegorical explanation of why evil exists in the world and not a step by step account of events.

[fundie]

Ok, laetus, I see your point, but if God didn't create man with a free choice, would you have preferred it if He had made man an automaton?

Would you create your own children in such an image?  Or would you prefer to give them the 'option', and see them choosing on your side?

Regardless of what you prefer, that is the way it panned out.  Would you like your own children to be pre-programmed to obey your every command, or would you rather have them choose on 'your side' because they loved you and realised your value?

Joeactor:

But EVERYONE has the option of believing in Jesus.  Don't they?  

Don't you?

You have the option.  It has been preached to you.  You have the option.  Whether you take it or leave it, you have the option.

[joeactor]

But EVERYONE has the option of believing in Jesus.  Don't they?  

Don't you?

You have the option.  It has been preached to you.  You have the option.  Whether you take it or leave it, you have the option.

Yes, I've heard of Jesus, but not EVERYONE has.

I've also heard of Thor, Mithras, Xenu, Buddah, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh, etc...

So?

Who's god should I choose?

In any case, my point was that if god is omniscient, he already knows who will choose what belief...

And IMHO, it's a pretty piss-poor way to run a universe when you know in advance that 75% of the living beings you create are doomed to an eternity of suffering and torment.

Loving god?  I'm gonna need something better than the one from the bible...

(btw, Thor's gonna be really po'd when you get to Valhalla)

[fundie]

But EVERYONE has the option of believing in Jesus.  Don't they?  

Don't you?

You have the option.  It has been preached to you.  You have the option.  Whether you take it or leave it, you have the option.

Yes, I've heard of Jesus, but not EVERYONE has.

I've also heard of Thor, Mithras, Xenu, Buddah, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh, etc...

So?

Who's god should I choose?

In any case, my point was that if god is omniscient, he already knows who will choose what belief...

And IMHO, it's a pretty piss-poor way to run a universe when you know in advance that 75% of the living beings you create are doomed to an eternity of suffering and torment.

Loving god?  I'm gonna need something better than the one from the bible...

(btw, Thor's gonna be really po'd when you get to Valhalla)

Yes, joeactor.  There are many clammering for the truth.  There are also many clammering to be the messenger of the truth.  It's YOUR choice as to who you believe.  Believe buddha, mohammed, vishnu, Jesus, whoever.  But you will live by what you believe.  Or die by it.  

Choose. That is the choice for YOU to make, joeactor.

But remember:  That is the choice for YOU to make, joeactor.

[joeactor]

Yes, joeactor.  There are many clammering for the truth.  There are also many clammering to be the messenger of the truth.  It's YOUR choice as to who you believe.  Believe buddha, mohammed, vishnu, Jesus, whoever.  But you will live by what you believe.  Or die by it.  

Choose. That is the choice for YOU to make, joeactor.

But remember:  That is the choice for YOU to make, joeactor.

Amen to that, Fundie...

[fundie]

Yes, joeactor.  There are many clammering for the truth.  There are also many clammering to be the messenger of the truth.  It's YOUR choice as to who you believe.  Believe buddha, mohammed, vishnu, Jesus, whoever.  But you will live by what you believe.  Or die by it.  

Choose. That is the choice for YOU to make, joeactor.

But remember:  That is the choice for YOU to make, joeactor.

Amen to that, Fundie...

But are you aware, joeactor, that the term 'Amen' means "your will be done", or "so be it" ?

[joeactor]

But are you aware, joeactor, that the term 'Amen' means "your will be done", or "so be it" ?

yeppers... "so be it" was the one I intended.

[Tom62]

My 2cts. The jews needed this all-powerful, nasty god because in those days they were a "weak" tribe under babylonian or egyptian occupation. It would not have made sense for them to believe in a merciful, lovable god, because such a god would have no chance again its babylonian and egyptian enemies (Ra, Baal, Horus, etc.)