Author Topic: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'  (Read 392 times)

Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2017, 07:32:45 AM »
I think the idea was a bit more abstract. Like I said, samurai were angelucized through bushido. And people wanted to emulate them, or were forced to at least. The piolets were welded in.

And the gut feeling is somewhat familiar to me. It was over 100 years ago before we knew what really controlled the body (brain)

:secrets1: Maybe they were onto something (the Enteric Nervous System).  ;)

Another thing that popped into my head that is similar is the concept of "having a good work ethic". It's a set of unspoken rules that govern our society to promote productivity. It has fanatical followers and preachers. Slaves that serve the higher ups...

It even has a messiah (donald trump). And people cling to it without reason. I could see some people being so into it that they form small communities divoted to it when it becomes out dated or replaced in some way.

Same happened with the amish.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 10:08:16 AM by Arturo »
But, uh...well there it is.
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Dave

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2017, 08:39:28 AM »
Hmm, "fanaticism" and "obsession" and "compulsion". Just listened to av radio prog, by Claudia Hammond, the BBC's main presenter on matters mental (and whom I hold in some regard), admitting she is a dedicated "step counter", feeling guilty if she does not achieve her 10 000 steps a day. She introduced it as, "I am Claudia Hammond and I count my steps," a near parallel to the AA's stsndard intro. And a tacit admission to doing something slightly guilty making? It seems there sre a lot of step counters, apart from the less electronically metricated, but still fanatical/obsessed/compelled, keepers fit (  :grin: )

"Workaholism" is, presumably, one or all of the above descriptors, depending on the base motive - are you doing it because god told you to, because it is a learhed thing, because it is a symptom of a mental condition . . . ? So, could it be the case that the holy books use what, since it is so common if you  include every type, is evidently a human evolutionary/genetic trait for their own purposes? OK, so do political leaders and inspirational managers and . . .

I wonder if de-culting uses similar "treatment" techniques as, say, those for compulsive obssesive disorder/behaviour?
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Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2017, 10:18:24 AM »
That's a good point about the holy books Gloucester. I would take it one step further and say it might emcourage workaholism. I have wondered if religion even encourages mental illness. Seeing the "signs" or "hearing god". Some native americans get their religious insight from taking drugs and for some it is a rite of passage. New agers have similar experiences, especially on lsd.

As for asian religions I am not so sure. Workaholism could still be an issue but manifested differently in the mind. Some claim to see visions, ect.

I like where you were going with that Gloucester. I agree 99%
But, uh...well there it is.
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Dave

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2017, 10:37:53 AM »
That's a good point about the holy books Gloucester. I would take it one step further and say it might emcourage workaholism. I have wondered if religion even encourages mental illness. Seeing the "signs" or "hearing god". Some native americans get their religious insight from taking drugs and for some it is a rite of passage. New agers have similar experiences, especially on lsd.

As for asian religions I am not so sure. Workaholism could still be an issue but manifested differently in the mind. Some claim to see visions, ect.

I like where you were going with that Gloucester. I agree 99%

I was only using workaholism  as an example, to sort of link with your post. The Puritan "work ethic", "The devil finds work for idle hands (so make sure you are doing good work)," is probably not unique to them. Otherwise one or more of those three "cinditions" I listed can be found in almost any belief system, even humanists get a bit obsessed with humanity at times and some atheists get obessed with being aggressively anti-theist.

Then there's a whole bunch of people who, for no rational reason that I can detect, get obsessed with their bodily condition and feel guilty if they miss a workout!  :grin:
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No one

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2017, 02:43:24 PM »
People believe in this nonsense because their delicate egos need to be stroked. They are also too lazy to think for themselves. With just a smidgen of legwork, they'll realize the foundation of their beliefs will not withstand the weight of the scrutiny. I think I was about 8 when I realized it was all a big steaming pile of rancid horseshit.   

Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2017, 05:06:35 PM »
Yeah it's (workaholism) definitely tied to other things besides religion. The kamikaze is an extreme example.

That guilty feeling when missing a workout is one thing I am guilty of. Probably the only thing of that nature.

One thing though is that the problem with being a workaholic, and I know this from being a lifter, that doing too much will ultimately be unproductive. Your body and mind cannot handle it. And if you do too much for too long, the damage will be permanent.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:05:14 AM by Arturo »
But, uh...well there it is.
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Dave

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2017, 09:49:06 PM »
Yeah it's (workaholism) definitely tied to other things besides religion. The kamikaze is an extreme example.

That guilty feeling after a workout is one thing I am guilty of. Probably the only thing of that nature.

One thing though is that the problem with being a workaholic, and I know this from being a lifter, that doing too much will ultimately be unproductive. Your body and mind cannot handle it. And if you do too much for too long, the damage will be permanent.

"...guilty feeling after a workout..." ? Thought it was supposed to give you a rush! I was talking about the obsessive need to workout.

In the "overdoing it" aspect; in that programme about counting steps it was said the "traditional" 10 000 steps/day is a hangover from the Uspanese name of one of the first step counters in the 60s. In fact the first hundred or so are the most important and the benefit drops off after much less than 10 000. The longer walk might improve stamina but that is all.

@ No one: I think the problem is genetic, some are simply incapale of independant thought in this respect - I have met capable nanagers, leaders, who cannot handle life without the concept of god, of a figure who is the source (they think) of good. Then again I have met god bothering bosses who are utter bastards!
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Dave

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2017, 10:54:14 PM »
For those who have read "The Prince" : is there any mention of "respect" in there? One may respect a person and dislike them at the same time, e.g. - I dislike my cardiac consultant's "superior" attitude (which I suspect shields feelings of inferiority) but have to respect his skills as an electrophysiologist.

I am of the school that believes true respect can only be gained via demonstration, never through any kind of fear. You do not really respect a person for his/her position, only for their deeds. Thus the Abrahamic god is, at best, suffering a split personality, is not to be relied on. With a human one can still respect the rights of such a personality. With a deity one might suspect the sanity of those who respect that entity's recorded point of view, er, religiously.
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Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2017, 04:04:40 AM »
Whoops. Meant to put "if i miss a workout"
But, uh...well there it is.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #54 on: August 31, 2017, 05:36:02 PM »
For those who have read "The Prince" : is there any mention of "respect" in there? One may respect a person and dislike them at the same time, e.g. - I dislike my cardiac consultant's "superior" attitude (which I suspect shields feelings of inferiority) but have to respect his skills as an electrophysiologist.

I am of the school that believes true respect can only be gained via demonstration, never through any kind of fear. You do not really respect a person for his/her position, only for their deeds. Thus the Abrahamic god is, at best, suffering a split personality, is not to be relied on. With a human one can still respect the rights of such a personality. With a deity one might suspect the sanity of those who respect that entity's recorded point of view, er, religiously.

Machiavelli does go into reputation and how it's important that the ruler not be hated or held in contempt.

From chapter 19:

Quote
Now, concerning the characteristics of which mention is made above, I have spoken of the more important ones, the others I wish to discuss briefly under this generality, that the prince must consider, as has been in part said before, how to avoid those things which will make him hated or contemptible; and as often as he shall have succeeded he will have fulfilled his part, and he need not fear any danger in other reproaches.

It makes him hated above all things, as I have said, to be rapacious, and to be a violator of the property and women of his subjects, from both of which he must abstain. And when neither their property nor their honor is touched, the majority of men live content, and he has only to contend with the ambition of a few, whom he can curb with ease in many ways.

It makes him contemptible to be considered fickle, frivolous, effeminate, mean-spirited, irresolute, from all of which a prince should guard himself as from a rock; and he should endeavour to show in his actions greatness, courage, gravity, and fortitude; and in his private dealings with his subjects let him show that his judgments are irrevocable, and maintain himself in such reputation that no one can hope either to deceive him or to get round him.

...

Fear would be a form of respect as well, wouldn't it? Fear is ok, hate is not.
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Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #55 on: August 31, 2017, 06:09:33 PM »
Quote from: xSilverPhinx
Fear would be a form of respect as well, wouldn't it? Fear is ok, hate is not.

Who do you think people respect more: Kim Jung Un or Donald Truck.

Also many things you are mentioning in the book SP remind me of "The 48 Laws Of Power". Essentially verbatim.
But, uh...well there it is.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #56 on: August 31, 2017, 07:25:58 PM »
Robert Greene's book?



Undoubtedly The Prince must be one of the many texts he read in order to write that book.
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Dave

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2017, 11:36:31 PM »

Quote
Fear would be a form of respect as well, wouldn't it? Fear is ok, hate is not.
Well, Silver, in my mind fear has no positive effect on those who suffer it - you may not "get the best out of them". Respect can be a "double positive"  because, if earned, it usually goes both ways - thus you have a "willing worker".

But, certainly, from the bosses pov fear is better than hate. Fear cows whereas hate may foment rebellion.
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