Author Topic: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'  (Read 541 times)

No one

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 04:07:12 PM »
xSilverPhinx:
What? You do not fear this vengeful god? You know god is perfectly capable of being cruel and has a special place for people who seek to punch it in the face, right?

No. In absolute honesty, I'd rather deal with Satan. At least Beelzebub is a prick to your face. Not some back stabbing, self centered, vengeful cunt!

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 04:08:10 PM »
Well to be fair, bushido was only created a few years before world war 1. It also was more propaganda to agenlicize samurai than actual rules they followed. It left a huge mark though and inspired the famous kamikaze attacks. It was the same in that pawns were the frontmen and the ones sacrificing to serve higher ups.

That's very interesting, Arturo, I didn't know that. It seems to be a little like religious martyrdom in a way.

Going back to this...the guy who literally wrote the book on Bushido actually studied english literature and writing. He wasn't really connected to Japan as much as I can see.

Though ritual suicide was already a thing for a long time, it wasn't used very much. People didn't want to die. When Bushido was published it made it more....easy?
But, uh...well there it is.
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Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 04:19:27 PM »
[ What is it about this religion that is so attractive?

It's the character of Jesus, pure and simple.  He attracted people then, he attracts people now.  If he is the "Son of God", then God must be like him.  The other stuff, unfortunately, gets in the way.  This is not to say that the power inherent in religion does not attract political/social leaders who want to exploit it, but Christianity's pull on the common man begins and ends with Jesus (I suppose for Catholics you would need to add Mary to that formula).  Jesus and Mary, as they are presented in the NT, are approachable.

Most people don't have the view of shepherds that you have.  "Pastoral" scenes are favorites in art and literature.  The humble leader of a flock is clearly preferable than a ruthless prince. Like it or not, people will always have a leader, whether political, social, religious or otherwise.  A shepherd is a leader.  I see nothing nefarious in the concept itself.

Ecurb Noselrub

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 04:23:01 PM »
I have often wondered whether the O and NT gods really were the same entity, the NT writers were bound to reference the OT just to ride on its existing "authority" in the minds of people.

There is some truth to this, in my view.  Jesus is not really very much like the vengeful god of the OT.  But that was the prevailing culture, so he sort of had to tip his hat to it, and then subvert that model as much as he could.  People who want to use religion to manipulate and control almost invariably draw more on the OT than the NT.  No kings and warriors among the NT characters.  Just carpenters, tent-makers, tax collectors and harlots.

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2017, 04:26:14 PM »
I remember my pastor saying Jesus was a dick. Someone asked Jesus a question and Jesus says "get behind me satan".

Also our current leader is a huuuuuge prick.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2017, 04:37:36 PM »
[ What is it about this religion that is so attractive?

It's the character of Jesus, pure and simple.  He attracted people then, he attracts people now.  If he is the "Son of God", then God must be like him.  The other stuff, unfortunately, gets in the way.  This is not to say that the power inherent in religion does not attract political/social leaders who want to exploit it, but Christianity's pull on the common man begins and ends with Jesus (I suppose for Catholics you would need to add Mary to that formula).  Jesus and Mary, as they are presented in the NT, are approachable.

Most people don't have the view of shepherds that you have.  "Pastoral" scenes are favorites in art and literature.  The humble leader of a flock is clearly preferable than a ruthless prince. Like it or not, people will always have a leader, whether political, social, religious or otherwise.  A shepherd is a leader.  I see nothing nefarious in the concept itself.

Not sure how to put this... "Shepherds" can be useful people, the vicar has his flock after all (and even some if those preach violence). Great if everyone is led by shepherds, or a Shepherd, all singing from the same hymn sheet. It's never going to happen and because of that humanity will continue to chop one another up I think.

If a semi-Apocalypse happens with only two small groups of humanity remaining they have the choice of fighting for whatever is left or cooperating to build anew. If they are of different beliefs chances are they will fight it out - both still claiming their holy figure, or their perception of it, is the real one. Should they have to cooperate initially, to survive, chances are that will only defer the fight until one side gets the edge and trounces the other to make their belief supreme.
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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2017, 08:23:42 PM »
I'm not a follower.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2017, 10:22:19 PM »
xSilverPhinx:
What? You do not fear this vengeful god? You know god is perfectly capable of being cruel and has a special place for people who seek to punch it in the face, right?

No. In absolute honesty, I'd rather deal with Satan. At least Beelzebub is a prick to your face. Not some back stabbing, self centered, vengeful cunt!

What was Satan's worst crime anyways? We have some crazy YECers claiming that he hid dinosaur fossils in order to fool humanity into believing in extinction and evolution. He tempts people into eating crunchy chocolate chip cookies when they're on a diet. Did he actually kill anyone like God did? :notsure:
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2017, 10:23:37 PM »
Well to be fair, bushido was only created a few years before world war 1. It also was more propaganda to agenlicize samurai than actual rules they followed. It left a huge mark though and inspired the famous kamikaze attacks. It was the same in that pawns were the frontmen and the ones sacrificing to serve higher ups.

That's very interesting, Arturo, I didn't know that. It seems to be a little like religious martyrdom in a way.

Going back to this...the guy who literally wrote the book on Bushido actually studied english literature and writing. He wasn't really connected to Japan as much as I can see.

Though ritual suicide was already a thing for a long time, it wasn't used very much. People didn't want to die. When Bushido was published it made it more....easy?

And what did they have to gain from killing themselves?
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2017, 10:54:16 PM »
[ What is it about this religion that is so attractive?

It's the character of Jesus, pure and simple.  He attracted people then, he attracts people now.  If he is the "Son of God", then God must be like him.  The other stuff, unfortunately, gets in the way.  This is not to say that the power inherent in religion does not attract political/social leaders who want to exploit it, but Christianity's pull on the common man begins and ends with Jesus (I suppose for Catholics you would need to add Mary to that formula).  Jesus and Mary, as they are presented in the NT, are approachable.

Jesus does seem to be a simple character with a simple message. :notsure: God, on the other hand...rather a split personality if you contrast the OT with the NT.

Quote
Most people don't have the view of shepherds that you have.  "Pastoral" scenes are favorites in art and literature.

I don't have a problem with pastoral scenes in art and literature, other than the fact that it appears to be a boring pastime. Like fishing.  :P

Quote
The humble leader of a flock is clearly preferable than a ruthless prince.

Depends on what the goal is, at least according to Machiavelli. The prince in The Prince was inspired by Cesare Borgia, who was son of the Pope Alexander VI and was Machiavelli's contemporary (during the Italian Renaissance). Back then the Italian Peninsula was an agglomeration of many small principalities and republics. Machiavelli argues in his book that it takes a strong leader (one full of "virtu"), one who can and is willing to be ruthless if need be, to unite the italian States. He's basically a Cesare fanboy.

Quote
Like it or not, people will always have a leader, whether political, social, religious or otherwise.  A shepherd is a leader.  I see nothing nefarious in the concept itself.

And who leads the leader? :chin:

What if the person is a lousy leader who leads their people to ruin? Too much trust is placed on some people who do not deserve it.

Leadership is a position of power over others and leaders are not immune to power games, even your gentle Shepherd. For one, they might have to compete with other leaders for influence. Even cooperating with other leaders in order to lead is a power move.
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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2017, 10:59:14 PM »
I'm just a student of the game that they taught me.


Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2017, 12:35:21 AM »
Well to be fair, bushido was only created a few years before world war 1. It also was more propaganda to agenlicize samurai than actual rules they followed. It left a huge mark though and inspired the famous kamikaze attacks. It was the same in that pawns were the frontmen and the ones sacrificing to serve higher ups.

That's very interesting, Arturo, I didn't know that. It seems to be a little like religious martyrdom in a way.

Going back to this...the guy who literally wrote the book on Bushido actually studied english literature and writing. He wasn't really connected to Japan as much as I can see.

Though ritual suicide was already a thing for a long time, it wasn't used very much. People didn't want to die. When Bushido was published it made it more....easy?

And what did they have to gain from killing themselves?

Probably nothing until they got into planes. That's why they didn't really do it much because, who wants to kill themselves? There wasn't anything to benefit from until thet turned themself into a bomb.

And the idea that the soul is hidden in the stomach was carried from europe to japan through the book on bushido.
But, uh...well there it is.
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xSilverPhinx

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2017, 12:42:52 AM »
Well to be fair, bushido was only created a few years before world war 1. It also was more propaganda to agenlicize samurai than actual rules they followed. It left a huge mark though and inspired the famous kamikaze attacks. It was the same in that pawns were the frontmen and the ones sacrificing to serve higher ups.

That's very interesting, Arturo, I didn't know that. It seems to be a little like religious martyrdom in a way.

Going back to this...the guy who literally wrote the book on Bushido actually studied english literature and writing. He wasn't really connected to Japan as much as I can see.

Though ritual suicide was already a thing for a long time, it wasn't used very much. People didn't want to die. When Bushido was published it made it more....easy?

And what did they have to gain from killing themselves?

Probably nothing until they got into planes. That's why they didn't really do it much because, who wants to kill themselves? There wasn't anything to benefit from until thet turned themself into a bomb.

And the idea that the soul is hidden in the stomach was carried from europe to japan through the book on bushido.

Well, muslim men in general seem to believe that they will get virgins in the afterlife if they die the death of a martyr; Christians believe their souls will live on in heaven; followers of bushido...?

The soul in in the stomach? :lol: I never heard that one before. Maybe because of gut feelings? :chin:
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Arturo

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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2017, 12:53:13 AM »
I think the idea was a bit more abstract. Like I said, samurai were angelucized through bushido. And people wanted to emulate them, or were forced to at least. The piolets were welded in.

And the gut feeling is somewhat familiar to me. It was over 100 years ago before we knew what really controlled the body (brain)
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: God's Character and Machiavelli's 'The Prince'
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2017, 01:14:22 AM »
I think the idea was a bit more abstract. Like I said, samurai were angelucized through bushido. And people wanted to emulate them, or were forced to at least. The piolets were welded in.

And the gut feeling is somewhat familiar to me. It was over 100 years ago before we knew what really controlled the body (brain)

:secrets1: Maybe they were onto something (the Enteric Nervous System).  ;) 
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