Author Topic: From Facebook - on taking sides  (Read 359 times)

Asmodean

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2017, 11:02:37 PM »
Alright back to the Native thing. Regardless of who stole from who, is was stolen (the good stuff anyway). And the places with nothing valuable were set aside for the Native Americans to live. There was a genocide of many Native Americans leaving their tribes dwindled down to nothing.

Yes YOU didn't do that. But now they live in literal ghettos where the children are still taken to live with white families because the conditions they live in are so bad. When I say ghettos I mean like actual ghettos, not like a project in the inner city. These were set aside for natives to live on, then killed en mass.

Sure you can say that's not your fault but it's a sympathy to at least help them in some way. If you don't do that, not many people would care,
...And if I decide to help those worse off than I am, then that action says something nice about my insufferable self. You don't get to ask me to make sacrifices for someone who is unlikely to reciprocate though - not and get anything more than my tax coin. Another dimension here is expecting some people to pitch in disproportionately more than others. No, not progressive taxation-like, more as in, I have no children. Who the fuck are you, mother of four, to nag me about my carbon footprint?!

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but that is no different than standing by while the jews were waiting to get slaughtered.
Vastly different, and in several crucial ways. In fact, I would go as far as say "utterly dissimilar."

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I know it's hard because of the situation we are all in, and the way they sometimes act (like violence and aggression) but that leads to unnecessary tribalism and more violence and aggression.
If one wants to strive for a utopic sort of situation of reduced inter-tribal tensions, then the way to do it is, in a broad sort of sense, cultural appropriation. If Irish Americans think of themselves as Americans and Ethiopian Americans think of themselves as Americans, and Salvadoran Americans think of themselves as Americans and, equally importantly, they all think of each other as Americans - then there really is no "us and them," is there?

If I choose to erect a wall around some bullshit identity I have, would I not be a hypocrite to then complain about not being treated the same as those living outside that wall treat each other?
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2017, 10:06:47 AM »
...And if I decide to help those worse off than I am, then that action says something nice about my insufferable self. You don't get to ask me to make sacrifices for someone who is unlikely to reciprocate though - not and get anything more than my tax coin. Another dimension here is expecting some people to pitch in disproportionately more than others. No, not progressive taxation-like, more as in, I have no children. Who the fuck are you, mother of four, to nag me about my carbon footprint?!
I don't know what you are getting at. What does a carbon footprint have to do with this?

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Vastly different, and in several crucial ways. In fact, I would go as far as say "utterly dissimilar."
Except it is the same. Being corralled up and killed. Except when you can't kill them, you cut them off at the feet by taking away the children and white wash them.

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If one wants to strive for a utopic sort of situation of reduced inter-tribal tensions, then the way to do it is, in a broad sort of sense, cultural appropriation. If Irish Americans think of themselves as Americans and Ethiopian Americans think of themselves as Americans, and Salvadoran Americans think of themselves as Americans and, equally importantly, they all think of each other as Americans - then there really is no "us and them," is there?

If I choose to erect a wall around some bullshit identity I have, would I not be a hypocrite to then complain about not being treated the same as those living outside that wall treat each other?
If you mean the people outside the wall have their own walls and the way they treat each other, then no. You don't have to bow down to what anyone thinks of people outside the walls of their identity. Because someone else has walls, and another person has walls, and they treat each other terribly, doesn't mean your walls and someone else's are going to collide. You don't have to agree with everyone on everything, that's just not going to happen.

The reservations are crap, which cause more problems that continue through the generations. They didn't come up and say, "I want to be land locked so I can have a bad education so the people who took the land won't even let us back into it. I hope we all die and waste away and everyone hates us." Nah that's just not what a sane person would say.

It's not like they made the reservations either. But they have to live on them. They are just trying to make the best of what they have, but it's not to everyone else's satisfaction, so they just shove the whole thing under the rug and ignore it. Then that sends the message they have to make the best of what they have, but only to other people's standards. "You can't be happy with yourself, you have to get your value from other people." Which is total abusive and manipulative bullshit.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 10:19:16 AM by Arturo »
But, uh...well there it is.
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Guardian85

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2017, 04:42:14 PM »
It's not like they made the reservations either. But they have to live on them. They are just trying to make the best of what they have, but it's not to everyone else's satisfaction, so they just shove the whole thing under the rug and ignore it. Then that sends the message they have to make the best of what they have, but only to other people's standards. "You can't be happy with yourself, you have to get your value from other people." Which is total abusive and manipulative bullshit.

Now I ask because I'm European and don't know, but from this thread it kinda sounded like.

Are there laws in effect in America right now that says a native American can't leave the reservation and go live somewhere else?
For example, if a member of the Arapaho tribe got a job in ....Seattle or wherever.... is there some legal barrier preventing him from moving there?


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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2017, 08:16:56 PM »

Now I ask because I'm European and don't know, but from this thread it kinda sounded like.

Are there laws in effect in America right now that says a native American can't leave the reservation and go live somewhere else?
For example, if a member of the Arapaho tribe got a job in ....Seattle or wherever.... is there some legal barrier preventing him from moving there?

No, there's no such law.  Only about 22% of natives live on native lands (as the rez is sometimes politely called).

Edited to add this article I found about it:  Between Nations: choosing to live on or off the reservation
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2017, 08:37:19 PM »
It's not like they made the reservations either. But they have to live on them. They are just trying to make the best of what they have, but it's not to everyone else's satisfaction, so they just shove the whole thing under the rug and ignore it. Then that sends the message they have to make the best of what they have, but only to other people's standards. "You can't be happy with yourself, you have to get your value from other people." Which is total abusive and manipulative bullshit.

Now I ask because I'm European and don't know, but from this thread it kinda sounded like.

Are there laws in effect in America right now that says a native American can't leave the reservation and go live somewhere else?
For example, if a member of the Arapaho tribe got a job in ....Seattle or wherever.... is there some legal barrier preventing him from moving there?

No there aren't any laws, it's just really tough because the education they recieve is so poor and there is a lack of opportunities to become skilled at something on reservations. So they don't get hired anywhere and become "land locked" because there really is nowhere for them to go.

Which, in my mind, makes the "old way" seem so enticing. Where they could roam the land and get everything they needed from the earth.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Asmodean

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2017, 02:37:04 AM »
I don't know what you are getting at. What does a carbon footprint have to do with this?
With this? Oh, nothing! I know my style can be demanding sometimes, but I think what I was getting at was pretty clear. If you are a bigger drain on something than I am, or a smaller net contributor to something positive, where does your right to demand greater sacrifices from me come from?

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Except it is the same. Being corralled up and killed. Except when you can't kill them, you cut them off at the feet by taking away the children and white wash them.
And white-washing is obviously bad. Wait, why is it bad again? Or is it just the way in which it was/is/may-have-been done? I'm not being rhetorical here - I'm just not ashamed enough of being white to know such things.

Beyond that, this point has been reasonably, albeit indirectly, addressed in the posts above.

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If you mean the people outside the wall have their own walls and the way they treat each other, then no. You don't have to bow down to what anyone thinks of people outside the walls of their identity. Because someone else has walls, and another person has walls, and they treat each other terribly, doesn't mean your walls and someone else's are going to collide. You don't have to agree with everyone on everything, that's just not going to happen.
Point of clarification: this was a stab at "where do we start?"

My opinion? Start with your own fences before you complain about others'. Yes, "we" can batter down someone's walls, but as long as "we ourselves" are surrounded by one, that one will just become the new divide and before you know it, that someone's own walls will be right-fucking-back. So yeah... Start in your own house, then change the neighbor.

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The reservations are crap, which cause more problems that continue through the generations. They didn't come up and say, "I want to be land locked so I can have a bad education so the people who took the land won't even let us back into it. I hope we all die and waste away and everyone hates us." Nah that's just not what a sane person would say.
This point was addressed nicely in the posts following Guardian85's question. By yourself, no less. A lack of opportunities in the "wider world" is not in itself a sign of a broken or even unhealthy system. If you can hop on a bus, go to LA and do porn... Then you can hop on a bus, go to LA and do porn. If you choose not to, that's on you, yes? (I am being deliberately provocative in my wording here. Understanding it verbatim-only is discouraged)

Risk everything, and you will win or die. Risk nothing, and you will die without ever having won. Somewhere in-between lies the path to having just enough success to be content.

Generally, though, I agree. The whole concept of reservations is bullshit.

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It's not like they made the reservations either. But they have to live on them. They are just trying to make the best of what they have, but it's not to everyone else's satisfaction, so they just shove the whole thing under the rug and ignore it. Then that sends the message they have to make the best of what they have, but only to other people's standards. "You can't be happy with yourself, you have to get your value from other people." Which is total abusive and manipulative bullshit.
Aside from where my response from right above this quote still applies, I agree with you. Seeking to control other people is what our species does, but in general, "abusive and manipulative bullshit" is just that.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2017, 08:26:44 AM »
With this? Oh, nothing! I know my style can be demanding sometimes, but I think what I was getting at was pretty clear. If you are a bigger drain on something than I am, or a smaller net contributor to something positive, where does your right to demand greater sacrifices from me come from?

Generational poverty is a thing. The fact of the matter is, when you have poverty that reaches through the generations, you're just sitting back letting it happen as much as they are. But I guess it's their fault that the jobs don't exist where they live and the education they receive is poor, right? They don't contribute to anything positive because they can't/haven't been enabled to. I've explained this already.

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And white-washing is obviously bad. Wait, why is it bad again? Or is it just the way in which it was/is/may-have-been done? I'm not being rhetorical here - I'm just not ashamed enough of being white to know such things.

Beyond that, this point has been reasonably, albeit indirectly, addressed in the posts above.
The point is that the Nazi concentration camps and the reservations are very similar. Corralled up and killed. But I guess you can focus on the white washing. As if I said in anyway there is a problem with being white.

But let me put it this way - imagine islamic terrorists invading and killing your parents while you are a child. They take you and put you in a camp, then tell you your beliefs are wrong and you must worship allah. Does that make it wrong to be a brown guy from the middle east in your eyes?

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Point of clarification: this was a stab at "where do we start?"
No. I was just using your symbology from your previous post to make it easier to understand.
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My opinion? Start with your own fences before you complain about others'. Yes, "we" can batter down someone's walls, but as long as "we ourselves" are surrounded by one, that one will just become the new divide and before you know it, that someone's own walls will be right-fucking-back. So yeah... Start in your own house, then change the neighbor.
...Okay...

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This point was addressed nicely in the posts following Guardian85's question. By yourself, no less. A lack of opportunities in the "wider world" is not in itself a sign of a broken or even unhealthy system. If you can hop on a bus, go to LA and do porn... Then you can hop on a bus, go to LA and do porn. If you choose not to, that's on you, yes? (I am being deliberately provocative in my wording here. Understanding it verbatim-only is discouraged)

Risk everything, and you will win or die. Risk nothing, and you will die without ever having won. Somewhere in-between lies the path to having just enough success to be content.

Generally, though, I agree. The whole concept of reservations is bullshit.
When some make it harder for others to succeed at the "some's" benefit is no reason to believe we should just continue to let it get harder. That's the real easy way out. Because eventually it will lead to us.

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It's not like they made the reservations either. But they have to live on them. They are just trying to make the best of what they have, but it's not to everyone else's satisfaction, so they just shove the whole thing under the rug and ignore it. Then that sends the message they have to make the best of what they have, but only to other people's standards. "You can't be happy with yourself, you have to get your value from other people." Which is total abusive and manipulative bullshit.
Aside from where my response from right above this quote still applies, I agree with you. Seeking to control other people is what our species does, but in general, "abusive and manipulative bullshit" is just that.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if you approve?
But, uh...well there it is.
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Guardian85

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2017, 11:11:20 AM »

But let me put it this way - imagine islamic terrorists invading and killing your parents while you are a child. They take you and put you in a camp, then tell you your beliefs are wrong and you must worship allah. Does that make it wrong to be a brown guy from the middle east in your eyes?

Just an amusing aside:
Did you know that you just perfectly described the Ottoman Empire?


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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2017, 11:58:32 AM »

But let me put it this way - imagine islamic terrorists invading and killing your parents while you are a child. They take you and put you in a camp, then tell you your beliefs are wrong and you must worship allah. Does that make it wrong to be a brown guy from the middle east in your eyes?

Just an amusing aside:
Did you know that you just perfectly described the Ottoman Empire?

Not really no. But lol
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2017, 01:51:54 PM »

But let me put it this way - imagine islamic terrorists invading and killing your parents while you are a child. They take you and put you in a camp, then tell you your beliefs are wrong and you must worship allah. Does that make it wrong to be a brown guy from the middle east in your eyes?

Just an amusing aside:
Did you know that you just perfectly described the Ottoman Empire?

Not really no. But lol
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Asmodean

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2017, 03:43:48 AM »
Generational poverty is a thing. The fact of the matter is, when you have poverty that reaches through the generations, you're just sitting back letting it happen as much as they are. But I guess it's their fault that the jobs don't exist where they live and the education they receive is poor, right? They don't contribute to anything positive because they can't/haven't been enabled to. I've explained this already.
Fault? I don't know, nor do I care. Responsibility for ones own life? Yes. If the jobs do not exist where you are, you may want to move. If you "can't" because living in a fucking shelter for a year or two, or having to do shit you would rather not is just too big and scary... Not the society's problem.

I'll give you an example from Norway. We have a strong social safety net, so if you lose your job, the tax payers will pay your way until you can find another. What you get is like 2/3 of your three-year average salary, or some such, from a certain point and up to a certain maximum. However, in order to get that, you must be actively looking for a job (Which pretty much IS your job then) and beyond a certain point, you must be willing to apply for jobs far, far away and move to where that job is when eventually you get one. That, or we the tax-payers... Won't pay. Yes, there may be complicating issues and while my society will generally drag someone's deadbeat ass through those too, they are usually... Sort-of on that person.

So yeah. No education? Take a couple of burger joint jobs to pay for a shitty roach-infested apartment and some instant noodles now and then, and do classes in what's left of the day. It is likely to be extremely difficult, but so fucking what? Some hills are just steeper than others. If you are resourceful and determined to climb, I don't see why you wouldn't find a way.

Yes, maybe someone or something will come along and propel you towards where you want to be, but ultimately, getting somewhere you want is your job.

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The point is that the Nazi concentration camps and the reservations are very similar. Corralled up and killed. But I guess you can focus on the white washing. As if I said in anyway there is a problem with being white.
Um... No, Nazi concentration camps were not like that at all. Their death camps were. However, the reservations are dissimilar to the Nazi death camps. So what are you trying to compare here? Places to stash the undesirables until you get around to gassing their asses?

Also, I am interested in hearing more about this white-washing thing. I have seen this term in a less-sinister setting, and frankly do struggle to see how there is something inherently wrong with it.

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But let me put it this way - imagine islamic terrorists invading and killing your parents while you are a child. They take you and put you in a camp, then tell you your beliefs are wrong and you must worship allah. Does that make it wrong to be a brown guy from the middle east in your eyes?
Not at all! My parents are dead, my god is bullshit, if I buy their narrative... Brown people from the Middle East are my people now.

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No. I was just using your symbology from your previous post to make it easier to understand.
Heheh... Nono, that one was my point of clarification. What I was aiming for.

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When some make it harder for others to succeed at the "some's" benefit is no reason to believe we should just continue to let it get harder. That's the real easy way out. Because eventually it will lead to us.
Don't step on people's throats is a nice enough rule to live by, even though it's unlikely to get you far. Your success is still your responsibility though, no matter if some asshole is sawing at the steps for some reason. If you get to the competitive end of the "upper levels," you will find that you have to deal with exactly the same sort of shit - only with far more zeroes at the end and far less potential for hunger or homelessness.

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I'm not sure if you approve?
Hah..! Neither am I, my friend... Neither am I.

In this particular discussion, I don't think that I do, and yet, abusive and manipulative... Can be useful. Especially in situations where one's moral sensibilities don't trump that need, which abusiveness and manipulation satisfy.

I'm defining what constitutes my approval very broadly here, by the way. Speaking from more than ethics, so to say.
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Arturo

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2017, 09:23:11 AM »
I think I'll have to clarify some inconsistencies with you but I'm not too critical of other people. Plus you jus said you'll be fine with abuse manipulation if it suits your needs. So I'm done here.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Asmodean

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2017, 10:14:24 AM »
Yes, I think I'd be OK with that. Thus far though, I'm just too... Middle-class for that to be the path of least resistance.

Too small an observation sample to call it either way.

Inconsistencies to clarify? Point, and I shall attempt.
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