Author Topic: From Facebook - on taking sides  (Read 432 times)

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From Facebook - on taking sides
« on: July 17, 2017, 11:44:46 PM »
Taking a leaf from the Asmo's book -- maybe we need to start a whole thread on Facebook posts.

Anyway, got into a dust up on FB regarding a clip that, in my and two other people's opinions, did not have enough context for us to even know what was going on, much less come to an opinion about it.  The clip shows a Canadian native woman ranting at a white woman (possibly a reporter but who knows) for asking a question (the clip starts just at the end of the woman's question so no idea what the question was) at what appears to be a press conference (but maybe not, again no information). 

The position of the person who posted the clip, and possibly the one who shared it, was that it showed that white women are not the friends  of people of color.  Admittedly, those of us asking for more information were all white and two of us were women.  I came in rather late to the dust up and, while I did get accused of colonialism, I also finally got some context pertinent to the clip tho it was like pulling teeth.  For anyone who reads the FB posts attached and doesn't already know, I'm Sandra Craft.

My problem here is that, as near as I can figure out, the position of those arguing with us is that it doesn't matter what was going on in the specific situation of this clip, we should automatically side with the native woman no matter what because of the general history of natives and whites in Canada.  That it was racist and demeaning and anti-native to ask any questions about the context of the clip at all.

Maybe it is, maybe I'm wrong in wanting to consider specific situations individually as well as considering the larger picture.  I've been wrong about plenty before, and I'm used to it.  It just bugs me being told not to question, to have an opinion without information; there's a lot of this thinking going on, particularly in the Women's Movement which is why, to be honest, I no longer consider myself part of the Women's Movement.  I'm still very much a feminist, and any vote or action I take on any issue, not just feminism, is very much on the side of civil rights, justice and equality but I can't be part of a group where inquiry isn't allowed.  Right or wrong, my mind doesn't work that way.

So I'm bringing the dust up here for the opinions of people I think I can trust to give me direct answers.  I think I, and the other two people who were confused, asked very simple and inoffensive questions.  What am I missing?

When you've had enough of white people's shit, especially from white women
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 10:30:16 AM by BooksCatsEtc »
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 03:23:04 AM »
I can't see the full amount of comments there, possibly because I am looking on a mobile browser.

I don't know any indigenous people specifically but I do believe they(at least some do at some point) see science and inquiry as a foriegn concept that doesn't belong on their side of the pond. That it is not apart of their religion or their identity that they desperately cling to but more and more of it is lost over time.

So that may be why you were shunned out and called for colonialism. As for what the context of the video is, who knows.
But, uh...well there it is.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 06:23:13 AM »
The post is a share from this guy Micheal Moorewho lives in the Western Cape in South Africa. He appears to be rather agenda driven.

Here is one of the posts from his wall.



I think this gives an impression of his mind set.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2017, 06:25:52 AM »
This may help give some context to the issue Red River Women
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 06:50:00 AM »
Can anybody here find the whole clip.

EDIT: Found it.

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
“Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt.” ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2017, 07:07:59 AM »
This may help give some context to the issue Red River Women

Yeah, I saw that in the FB thread.  I'm aware the history between natives and whites all over the American continent is horrific, that isn't what I was asking about.  My only interest was the context for what was happening in that one, single video clip.  I just wanted to understand what was going on there.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2017, 07:20:00 AM »
Can anybody here find the whole clip.

EDIT: Found it.


That doesn't contain the part that was being disputed on FB, which I think may have happened during a question and answer period.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 07:33:46 AM »
Taking a leaf from the Asmo's book -- maybe we need to start a whole thread on Facebook posts.
What The Gray Tome demandeth... It demandeth. What can ya do?  8) Actually, I find forums to be a far better arena for nuanced discussion than places like Facebook or Asmo forbid Twitter.

Also, this topic is of interest to me as I happen to be somewhat opinionated on this sort of issue, so... Here we go.

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The position of the person who posted the clip, and possibly the one who shared it, was that it showed that white women are not the friends  of people of color. Admittedly, those of us asking for more information were all white and two of us were women.  I came in rather late to the dust up and, while I did get accused of colonialism, I also finally got some context pertinent to the clip tho it was like pulling teeth.  For anyone who reads the FB posts attached and doesn't already know, I'm Sandra Craft.

My problem here is that, as near as I can figure out, the position of those arguing with us is that is doesn't matter what was going on in the specific situation of this clip, we should automatically side with the native woman no matter what because of the general history of native and whites in Canada.  That it was racist and demeaning and anti-native to ask any questions about the context of the clip at all.
Yes, various SJW idiots, scumbags, failures and disappointments have been preaching this sort of thing for years now. They actually seem to believe that a white person, especially if he's unlucky enough to be male and do well-enough for himself, is a racist, sexist, homophobic sack of shit unless he prostrates before the goddess of Social Justice and regularly flagellates himself on his alter of privilege. This also touches on my issue with the social media brand of feminism, but that's a story for a different post, methink.

There are so many things wrong with their line of thinking that it's difficult to find an angle to even start going at it from. Ok... Suppose my European ancestors owned slaves, who were of African descent. Suppose then that slavery is wrong by most modern standards. Ok. Good. With you so far. But I have never owned a slave, nor have I ever aspired to, nor was I ever legally permitted to. And my black contemporary, whos ancestors my ancestors owned, has never him- or herself been a slave. So... What exactly do I owe that person that I do not owe any other member of my society? Sins of my fathers are not my sins and may not even have been sins when they were committed, so fuck you, mostly-white-wannabe-bigot-hunter-turned-an-even-worse-bigot-than-most-of-them.

History is a poor excuse for tribalism-gone-cultism.

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Maybe it is, maybe I'm wrong in wanting to consider specific situations individually as well as considering the larger picture.  I've been wrong about plenty before, and I'm used to it.  It just bugs me being told not to question, to have an opinion without information; there's a lot of this thinking going on, particularly in the Women's Movement which is why, to be honest, I no longer consider myself part of the Women's Movement.  I'm still very much a feminist, and any vote or action I take on any issue, not just feminism, is very much on the side of civil rights, justice and equality but I can't be part of a group where inquiry isn't allowed.  Right or wrong, my mind doesn't work that way.
I think you are just too sensible to buy into their bullshit. I also think that if sensible feminists managed to hijack their movement back, far fewer people would have a problem with it. Drown the shrieking harpies, then we'll talk, so to speak. But again, a different discussion.

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What am I missing?
They are a cult. You asked them how they knew that there was a better life beyond the poisoned cool aid. It doesn't take more to at the very least get your behind shunned by their kind.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 09:36:37 AM »
As usual, the Gray One has come up with a lot of good common sense.

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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2017, 10:53:17 AM »
Yes, well... Preaching common sense to the already-sensible. Unfortunately, those who would benefit the most from it rarely listen to common sense. Trouble is, they listen to cold, hard data even less, unless the narrative has already been spun their way, so I tend to take the path of least effort. Them cultists be right because them cultists want to be right.

An excellent example of that is the gender pay gap. Granted, that short phrase can mean a gazillion different things, but the kind of people I'm talking about are the ones who point to the average salary for all men and women [within a certain group], declare the numbers unequal and scream discrimination. Now, one could, of course, look at the studies, examine the generated data and the variables used therein. One could make a good case for things like life style choices being a significant factor. One could even point to other studies to make a case for there being nothing wrong with different sexes tending to make those different life style choices in certain areas. One could do that, and so one has numerous times. But then again, it's kind of like making a case against Allah to a fundamentalist Muslim. In one ear, out the explosive underpants.

And so in stead, one does limit oneself to pointing out that if indeed there was a real pay gap based on a person's sex, then one's expensive-ass scrotum would more than likely be totally unemployable. Profit-seeking entities... Seek profit. Or did you think that the whole construction industry speaks Baltic languages because Polish people are just kickass builders?

So yeah... Note how I used fewer lines in making my case using common sense alone than I did even explaining what the proper evidence-based case-making process might have looked like. Also, I may have re-opened an epic can of worms, but... Whatever. I'm game if someone else is.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2017, 10:58:27 AM »
Ok... Suppose my European ancestors owned slaves, who were of African descent. Suppose then that slavery is wrong by most modern standards. Ok. Good. With you so far. But I have never owned a slave, nor have I ever aspired to, nor was I ever legally permitted to. And my black contemporary, whos ancestors my ancestors owned, has never him- or herself been a slave. So... What exactly do I owe that person that I do not owe any other member of my society? Sins of my fathers are not my sins and may not even have been sins when they were committed, so fuck you, mostly-white-wannabe-bigot-hunter-turned-an-even-worse-bigot-than-most-of-them.

I can see where, at least in the US, there is a huge problem with systemic, institutionalized racism and I do think it falls on those of us who benefit from it, whether or not we benefit willingly or greatly, to do whatever we can to fix it.  Admittedly an uphill battle.  It's like inheriting something your grandparents stole -- it's true you didn't commit the crime, but once you're aware you have something stolen you need to give it back.  That's not a very good analogy, but it's late and I can't do any better right now.

What I can't see is what appears to me a growing ethic among progressives to demand we march in lock step, asking no questions.  It's like saying (and here's another bad analogy coming up) if I generally support politician X I should approve of every single political stance he takes without thinking about it.  Common sense tells me I'm never going to agree all the time with anyone, and even if I continue to generally support X I have to be able to say "but I disagree on this issue and that issue". 

Same thing with someone from a group I sympathize with for the bad treatment they've been given and continue to receive.  I need to be able to say "yes, I support and will fight for you to have fair treatment, equal rights and the protection of the law, but I do think that what you personally did or said in this one particular instance was wrong, or mistaken, or just plain BS." 
Sandy

  
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2017, 11:20:25 AM »
I can see where, at least in the US, there is a huge problem with systemic, institutionalized racism
I don't really know enough about the specific case of the US to have a concrete opinion, but the scope of this problem does seem to be blown out of its proper proportions. Otherwise, one would assume it wouldn't be so hard to make a solid case for it.

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and I do think it falls on those of us who benefit from it, whether or not we benefit willingly or greatly, to do whatever we can to fix it.  Admittedly an uphill battle.  It's like inheriting something your grandparents stole -- it's true you didn't commit the crime, but once you're aware you have something stolen you need to give it back.  That's not a very good analogy, but it's late and I can't do any better right now.
I see what you are saying and I think your analogy is better than the credit you give it. Should you give your land back to native Americans? Should the UN un-make Israel? Who does Venezuela belong to? What about the spoils of ancient scams, swindles and then-gray-area exploits? Or what about shit your grandfather stole from my grandfather whos grandmother's father in law stole it from Sumerians and which your father sold to a Korean guy? Who does that there rightfully belong to? We all live on, with, because of or around something, which was taken from someone else at some point using means we would deem nefarious now, have done before or will do in the future. And no, we are under no obligation to give back that, which we have inherited in ways acceptable within our society at the point at which we inherited it. You cannot apply your moral sensibilities retroactively without hypocrisy.

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What I can't see is what appears to me a growing ethic among progressives to demand we march in lock step, asking no questions.  It's like saying (and here's another bad analogy coming up) if I generally support politician X I should approve of every single political stance he takes without thinking about it.  Common sense tells me I'm never going to agree all the time with anyone, and even if I continue to generally support X I have to be able to say "but I disagree on this issue and that issue".
SJWs are a cult. I assume from implication that when you say "progressive," you are actually talking about them. They are not progressive. They are not leftists. They are a bunch of totalitarian demagogues surrounded by their faithful mobs. Thus, if you disagree, you are not one of them. If you voice an opinion outside the preferred narrative of a particular movement, you are not one of them. If you are not one of them, you are a part of the problem and must be opposed because you are unworthy of inheriting the mindless drones' sterile, stagnant and hopelessly censored utopia. 

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Same thing with someone from a group I sympathize with for the bad treatment they've been given and continue to receive.  I need to be able to say "yes, I support and will fight for you to have fair treatment, equal rights and the protection of the law, but I do think that what you personally did or said in this one particular instance was wrong, or mistaken, or just plain BS."

Obviously, I agree with you. I just tend not to be quite so pleasant in ways I voice my dissent. So yeah... The Dark Side. Come, join us, ye unwoke masses, for unlike some other assholes, we actually DO celebrate diversity unless it tries to harm us.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 11:31:49 AM by Asmodean »
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2017, 11:43:20 AM »
We all live on, with, because of or around something, which was taken from someone else at some point using means we would deem nefarious now, have done before or will do in the future. And no, we are under no obligation to give back that, which we have inherited in ways acceptable within our society at the point at which we inherited it. You cannot apply your moral sensibilities retroactively without hypocrisy.

I can try!  Well, I said it was a bad analogy.  Obviously I can't vacate stolen land and go back to Ireland, Scotland or Germany for any number of reasons, not the least of which is I doubt they'd take me back.  But I do think those of us benefiting in some way from an unfair system are obliged to do what we can to make it fair.  At least, I feel so obliged.

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SJWs are a cult. I assume from implication that when you say "progressive," you are actually talking about them.

I don't know -- I don't understand the whole "SJW", "regressive left" thing.  I mean people or groups who espouse liberal values I share but have weird rules about questions being presumptuous or racist or sexist or colonialist or whatever.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 12:10:27 PM »
I can try!  Well, I said it was a bad analogy.  Obviously I can't vacate stolen land and go back to Ireland, Scotland or Germany for any number of reasons, not the least of which is I doubt they'd take me back.  But I do think those of us benefiting in some way from an unfair system are obliged to do what we can to make it fair.  At least, I feel so obliged.
Certainly, if you are talking about something that is happening now, you can take responsibility. In fact, sometimes, you are morally obligated to. But not to pay for the sins of your predecessors, rather to make a better here and now. That's not the same discussion as we are having here, though.

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I don't know -- I don't understand the whole "SJW", "regressive left" thing.  I mean people or groups who espouse liberal values I share but have weird rules about questions being presumptuous or racist or sexist or colonialist or whatever.
SJW in this context is a label given to the more totalitarian sort of self-proclaimed leftist, mostly by the actual sensible leftists, to distance themselves from the nonsense. The term stuck and does serve its purpose well. It can also refer to those un-hirable assholes holding useless degrees in being a loud mouth and while those two groups do intersect, they are not necessarily the same people. I was referring to the former. Your assessment is not inaccurate.
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Re: From Facebook - on taking sides
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2017, 03:07:08 PM »
Alright back to the Native thing. Regardless of who stole from who, is was stolen (the good stuff anyway). And the places with nothing valuable were set aside for the Native Americans to live. There was a genocide of many Native Americans leaving their tribes dwindled down to nothing.

Yes YOU didn't do that. But now they live in literal ghettos where the children are still taken to live with white families because the conditions they live in are so bad. When I say ghettos I mean like actual ghettos, not like a project in the inner city. These were set aside for natives to live on, then killed en mass.

Sure you can say that's not your fault but it's a sympathy to at least help them in some way. If you don't do that, not many people would care, but that is no different than standing by while the jews were waiting to get slaughtered.

I know it's hard because of the situation we are all in, and the way they sometimes act (like violence and aggression) but that leads to unnecessary tribalism and more violence and aggression.
But, uh...well there it is.
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