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HAF Book Club: The Demon-Haunted World discussion

Started by Sandra Craft, May 09, 2017, 12:12:01 AM

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Tom62

The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Tom62 on May 23, 2017, 08:32:56 PM
Only 10 more pages to go :)

I think you're definitely going to be the first to finish!  It is quite a read.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Arturo

Wow I really should have read that but I picked up other things for my health.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Tom62

Carl Sagan is very gifted author. The Demon-Haunted World is well written and easy to read. However, I wouldn't read it a second time. Apart from some interesting anecdotes, there isn't much in the book that I didn't know before or are that is really relevant for me as a foreigner (like the alien abductions, the founding fathers of the USA  or the bad shape of the American educational system). What I liked most was Carl Sagan's "baloney detection kit", which is a set of tools for skeptical thinking (like independent confirmation of facts, debate, development of different hypotheses, quantification, the use of Occam's razor, and the possibility of falsification).  The message the book sends is very clear. The scientific method is good, the rest (religion, anti- and pseudo science) is "bad".

In general, I'd say that the book "preaches to the choir". Those people who should read it, are probably the ones who will not read it. All in all,  I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Tom62 on May 25, 2017, 10:01:46 AM
In general, I'd say that the book "preaches to the choir". Those people who should read it, are probably the ones who will not read it. All in all,  I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars.

Preaching to the choir seems to be a common problem from both sides of the aisle, and I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it even if you mean to.  Sam Harris wrote "Letter to a Christian Nation" to speak directly to Xtians but honestly, I think most Xtians (at least those who try to use the law to force Xtian practices on others) would just turn their nose up at it the instant they saw his name.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tom62

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 28, 2017, 03:08:51 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on May 25, 2017, 10:01:46 AM
In general, I'd say that the book "preaches to the choir". Those people who should read it, are probably the ones who will not read it. All in all,  I'd give it 3 out of 5 stars.

Preaching to the choir seems to be a common problem from both sides of the aisle, and I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it even if you mean to.  Sam Harris wrote "Letter to a Christian Nation" to speak directly to Xtians but honestly, I think most Xtians (at least those who try to use the law to force Xtian practices on others) would just turn their nose up at it the instant they saw his name.

That is absolutely true!
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Arturo

Speaking of preaching to the choir. I heard from a guy who I assume was a paleontologist, says that the aim of the "PR" work is to get the people on the fence to come to their side. I found that statement interesting because of some of the people here saying scientists are preaching to the choir. We might be getting tired of hearing the same old thing so maybe we are far enough to start getting involved and making our own things to say.
It's Okay To Say You're Welcome
     Just let people be themselves.
     Arturo The1  リ壱

Davin

I was only able to get to 52% because of working on the house, moving in, and going to a ComiCon. But I'm going to finish it early next month.

I enjoy the book. I like his writing style because it's informative without sounding smug or overly condescending (as compared to like a Sam Harris book). I really like his perspective too, it's a bit different than my own and so it's interesting to read through it.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Biggus Dickus

Quote from: Davin on May 30, 2017, 04:06:57 PM
I was only able to get to 52% because of working on the house, moving in, and going to a ComiCon. But I'm going to finish it early next month.

I enjoy the book. I like his writing style because it's informative without sounding smug or overly condescending (as compared to like a Sam Harris book). I really like his perspective too, it's a bit different than my own and so it's interesting to read through it.

I'm more like 80% because of long weekend, involving quite a bit of gardening, weeding, planting, fence repair and biking. By I agree with Davin I enjoy his reading style, it is certainly informative yet I don't feel like I'm being lectured to...more like I'm just sitting having a conversation.

Anyway have truly enjoyed it so far.

"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Father Bruno on May 30, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
By I agree with Davin I enjoy his reading style, it is certainly informative yet I don't feel like I'm being lectured to...more like I'm just sitting having a conversation.


For me, this is one of the most enjoyable things about all of Sagan's books -- the sense of having a conversation with a really intelligent friend.  And then there's the learning stuff, which is always thrilling.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Tom62

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on May 30, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: Father Bruno on May 30, 2017, 08:23:04 PM
By I agree with Davin I enjoy his reading style, it is certainly informative yet I don't feel like I'm being lectured to...more like I'm just sitting having a conversation.


For me, this is one of the most enjoyable things about all of Sagan's books -- the sense of having a conversation with a really intelligent friend.  And then there's the learning stuff, which is always thrilling.

I agree. Once I started reading the book, I just could not put it down.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Sandra Craft

Altho I was ahead at the beginning of the month, I fell slowly behind and only just finished it before midnight yesterday.  I have no excuse at all, I just start goofing off and then don't stop.

There were two quotes towards the end of the book that I particularly liked:

"For 99 percent of the tenure of humans on earth, nobody could read or write. The great invention had not yet been made. Except for first hand experience, almost everything we knew was passed on by word of mouth. As in the children's game "Telephone", over tens and hundreds of generations, information would slowly be distorted and lost.

Books changed all that. Books, purchasable at low cost, permit us to interrogate the past with high accuracy; to tap the wisdom of our species, to understand the point of view of others, and not just those in power; to contemplate -- with the best teachers -- the insights, painfully extracted from Nature, of the greatest minds that ever were, drawn from the entire planet and from all of our history. They allow people long dead to talk inside our heads. Books can accompany us everywhere. Books are patient where we are slow to understand, allow us to go over the hard parts as many times as we wish, and are never critical of our lapses. Books are key to understanding the world and participating in a democratic society."

"The gears of poverty, ignorance, hopelessness, and low self-esteem mesh to create a kind of perpetual failure machine that grinds down dreams from generation to generation. We all bear the cost of keeping it running. Illiteracy is it linchpin.

Even if we hardened our hearts to the shame and misery experienced by the victims, the cost of illiteracy to everyone else is severe -- the cost in medical expenses and hospitalization, the cost in crime and prisons, the cost in special education, the cost in lost productivity and in potentially brilliant minds who could help solve the dilemmas besetting us.

Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But reading is still the path."

On to Ove.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Biggus Dickus

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on June 01, 2017, 11:21:47 PM
Altho I was ahead at the beginning of the month, I fell slowly behind and only just finished it before midnight yesterday.  I have no excuse at all, I just start goofing off and then don't stop.

There were two quotes towards the end of the book that I particularly liked:

"For 99 percent of the tenure of humans on earth, nobody could read or write. The great invention had not yet been made. Except for first hand experience, almost everything we knew was passed on by word of mouth. As in the children's game "Telephone", over tens and hundreds of generations, information would slowly be distorted and lost.

Books changed all that. Books, purchasable at low cost, permit us to interrogate the past with high accuracy; to tap the wisdom of our species, to understand the point of view of others, and not just those in power; to contemplate -- with the best teachers -- the insights, painfully extracted from Nature, of the greatest minds that ever were, drawn from the entire planet and from all of our history. They allow people long dead to talk inside our heads. Books can accompany us everywhere. Books are patient where we are slow to understand, allow us to go over the hard parts as many times as we wish, and are never critical of our lapses. Books are key to understanding the world and participating in a democratic society."

"The gears of poverty, ignorance, hopelessness, and low self-esteem mesh to create a kind of perpetual failure machine that grinds down dreams from generation to generation. We all bear the cost of keeping it running. Illiteracy is it linchpin.

Even if we hardened our hearts to the shame and misery experienced by the victims, the cost of illiteracy to everyone else is severe -- the cost in medical expenses and hospitalization, the cost in crime and prisons, the cost in special education, the cost in lost productivity and in potentially brilliant minds who could help solve the dilemmas besetting us.

Frederick Douglass taught that literacy is the path from slavery to freedom. There are many kinds of slavery and many kinds of freedom. But reading is still the path."

On to Ove.

Hey Books, I read this book on my Nook and hi-lighted practically the exact same passages...and when i read these, even here in your thread I can hear his voice,... calm, distinct, yet firm with conviction.

As JoeActor mentioned in another thread we not only miss the mind and voice of Carl Sagan, but desperately need someone to fill the void he's left behind...with that said you wonder what he would have said today in light of Trump's decision to pull the US from the Paris Accord? (Not that Trump or his supporters would listen to reason or even someone like Mr. Sagan, in fact Republican Congressman Tim Walberg said that "God will address climate change if it is real and that humans can do nothing to help the planet". We are Demon-Haunted indeed!


I enjoyed this book quite a bit and liked its spirited defense of science, reads almost like a manifesto for clear and disciplined thought.

"Some people just need a high-five. In the face. With a chair."

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Father Bruno on June 02, 2017, 07:34:28 PM

As JoeActor mentioned in another thread we not only miss the mind and voice of Carl Sagan, but desperately need someone to fill the void he's left behind...with that said you wonder what he would have said today in light of Trump's decision to pull the US from the Paris Accord?

Considering what he said back in the 80s and 90s about saving the environment, I think 45's reign would have killed him.  It's amazing how prophetic Sagan was about the dumbing down of America.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany