Author Topic: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.  (Read 1353 times)

manga

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Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« on: April 08, 2017, 12:34:15 AM »

What do you guys think of this article as evidence for NDEs and the existence of a soul? Apparently there were close to 30, half of them were born blind at birth, and Dr. Keneth Ring claims they could see clearly during NDEs and OBEs.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 12:44:24 AM »
Do you find this sort of thing convincing, manga?
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manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 01:09:39 AM »
Do you find this sort of thing convincing, manga?

I am not sure what to think. I do think it is weird how someone who is blind claims that they saw their body when they would have no idea what a body or a person actually looks like. I'm just surprised these patients actually went on interviews and told their stories. A blind person who was always blind cannot see in dreams, only hear. Therefore, it is possible that some of these blind nders lied, but I'm not sure why they would. I would say I don't believe it or disbelieve at this point

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2017, 07:53:52 AM »
I've had an NDE and know exactly what caused it.
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2017, 08:44:32 AM »
I've been ND and found every E explainable.

Even after the morphine they gave me.
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2017, 04:11:31 PM »
I do think it is weird how someone who is blind claims that they saw their body when they would have no idea what a body or a person actually looks like.

Any blind person with hands knows what they, and others, look like.
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2017, 04:24:53 PM »
Blind Man Paints by Touch



This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2017, 04:38:25 PM »
Blind Man Paints by Touch



This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

Those are incredible pictures! I would be very happy to have any of those on my wall! Thanks for offering this, PC.

However I am slightly confused about, ". . . sighted until late childhood . . ." and, ". . . someone who has blind [sic] from birth . . ." when you seem to be describing the same person.
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manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2017, 09:30:52 PM »
Blind Man Paints by Touch



This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2017, 09:49:20 PM »

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

First one has to be 100% certain that the person is telling the truth, sad to say some people tell tales for personal agendas.

I am trying to find out if, even in the "born blind" mechanical factors - aneurisms, strokes, hydrocephaly, impacts,  etc - impinging on the nerves in the brain's visual areas can produce at least amorphous "images" in the visual cortext.

Nothing just yet matching just what I am looking for so . . . maybe not.

And close to my bed time!

But, cannot see any connection between this and a "soul". Put my money on a describable psysiological phenomena being the final answer to any NDE or similar.
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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2017, 10:29:15 PM »

What do you guys think of this article as evidence for NDEs and the existence of a soul? Apparently there were close to 30, half of them were born blind at birth, and Dr. Keneth Ring claims they could see clearly during NDEs and OBEs.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/
I read this article a couple times, and I believe these people had these experiences. I mean, sighted people have these experiences, so why wouldn't a blind person? However, even a blind-from-birth person knows the general shape of themselves, of trees, etc... The thing is, we have no idea what they actually saw. They may have seen what they imagine they look like, or what they  have always imagined anything looking like. The fact that they had OBEs  doesn't cast doubt on anything for me, and in a way, it makes me happy for them that they finally got to "see" a little bit.
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manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2017, 10:33:45 PM »

What do you guys think of this article as evidence for NDEs and the existence of a soul? Apparently there were close to 30, half of them were born blind at birth, and Dr. Keneth Ring claims they could see clearly during NDEs and OBEs.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/
I read this article a couple times, and I believe these people had these experiences. I mean, sighted people have these experiences, so why wouldn't a blind person? However, even a blind-from-birth person knows the general shape of themselves, of trees, etc... The thing is, we have no idea what they actually saw. They may have seen what they imagine they look like, or what they  have always imagined anything looking like. The fact that they had OBEs  doesn't cast doubt on anything for me, and in a way, it makes me happy for them that they finally got to "see" a little bit.

Would a blind person's brain be able to come up with this though if they cannot see anything in their dreams?

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2017, 10:55:06 PM »
Your first problem is reading an article from a section called "Beyond Science" in the Epoch Times (a publication of politically motivated origins).  So I followed the path to the study published in the Journal of Near Death Studies from 1997.

Some information about this journal, it is published by the International Associate for Near Death Studies of which Kenneth Ring (the study's author) is a founding member. Ring was (supposedly) a psychology professor for the University of Connecticut - he is not listed in their faculty for the psychology department or any other department.

Now, the journal itself is edited by...guess who? Kenneth Ring. So, that doesn't necessarily prove anything but from an academic standpoint it does raise redflags as to the quality of what is published in that journal by the editor of the journal and founder of the publishing organization.

Anyhow, the study itself lacks any real methodology other than paraphrasing and quoting interviews with several people.  However, the desriptions of the visual content of their experiences do not necessarily indicate that what they achieved was sight in that recreation of a conception space and other sensory information is present yet the lack of visual specific characteristics is missing.  This is similar to the debate had regarding visual content of the dreams of the congenitally blind.  It becomes a problem of the ability of the blind to convey what actual sight entails, the interpretation of those receiving those descriptions and the assumptions associated with it which was described by Kerr and Domhoff (2004) and I think is quite applicable to what Ring has written.

As a quantitative guy, I dislike case studies (although I understand their place in research) such as this especially with no established parameters for anything, there was no analysis done of any kind other than superficial descriptions by the author.  What is present is hardly evidence for some supernatural phenomena especially in light of the applicable critique by Kerr and Domhoff (2004) for a similar line of argumentation. Not to mention the ridiculous conclusion of some kind of transcendental awareness as the culprit.

It must also be kept in mind that simply because someone's eyes do not work, it doesn't mean that the areas of the brain associated with vision no longer function as an EEG study by Lopes da Silva (2003) showed.

The problem with stuff like this is that you have an article from a publication which has been known to showcase pseudoscience, a journal of article of questionable academic integrity and what I would term as some biased research of which the intentionality is not discernable.

I also wonder, why such an obsessive preoccupation with near death experiences?

References:

Kerr, N. & Domhoff, G.W. (2004). Do the blind literally "see" in their dreams? A critique of a recent claim that they do. Dreaming, 14(4), 230-233.

Lopes da Silva, F.H. (2003). Visual dreams in the congenitally blind? Trends in Cognitive Sciences, 7(8), 328-330.

Ring, K. (1997). Near-death and Out-of-body experiences in the blind: A study of apparent eyeless vision. Journal of Near Death Studies, 18(2), 101-147.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 03:34:35 PM by solidsquid »

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2017, 10:59:42 PM »
Blind Man Paints by Touch



This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

How do you know what they are claiming to "See" during their NDE's is actually what we would quantify as seeing? Maybe what they think or claim to see is only what they imagine "seeing" is actually like...

Anyway Magna you need to define what you mean by "soul" first, what is it you actually mean descriptively when you use this word?

I myself and I'm sure most of the folks here on this forum reject any notion of a "soul" or "spirit" as separate from the activity of the brain.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of the structure of DNA, referred to it as “The Astonishing Hypothesis".  In Crick’s words, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal iden­tity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."



I also love this quote by the character Rust Cohle from True Detective. It mirrors my own personal thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, and I refer to often.

Quote
"I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody...


Maybe, and quite possibly this misstep in evolution has happened elsewhere, probably it has, odds are highly in favor of it happening elsewhere in the universe, as nearly probable as life itself...but really all we are is self-aware, and because of this we find it hard to accept that this self-awarness will one day end, permanently.

Life continues on though, as it has for millions and millions of years, and that itself, that simple realization should be reassuring to us, but for many people this reality, this actual truth scares them.
 

I have never read, or listen to one NDE that made me think what I heard or read was true, I think most likely that the large majority of these incidents are lies, pure fabrication on the part of those who would go to any lengths to try and get people to believe as they do.
No different than any of the faith-healer's you see regularly on television pretending to heal people, or those who claim they speak or talk directly with god.

These people are lying manga,...how do I know they are lying you ask?

I can't as a person heal someone merely by placing my hands on their body, neither can anyone else for that matter, nor can I as a person speak directly to a god or gods (I've tried, believe me), but I can lie, and guess what, so can every other human on this planet.

We all do it, some more than others, but every single one of us possesses this ability to deceive...so when I hear stories about people possessing amazing supernatural powers to travel outside the body, or live on after death, or even magically heal others with merely a touch of their hand I am left with only one conclusion, and only one because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the former being real I'm left with only one conclusion and that is they are most assuredly lying. (Although I will grant that there may be cases where people have experienced bizarre or seemingly unbelievable dreams of what you might refer to as NDE's caused by some chemical or biological occurrence within the brain, such as might occur due to lack of oxygen, etc..)

I think we have nothing to lose by letting go of our human belief in the soul, in fact I would state that we have everything to gain by doing so,... by shaking off the shackles of our fears and embracing the warm truth of our reality, maybe we can begin to work on building a better world in which all of us may live better lives for the short time each of us has, and ensure those who come after us have the same.

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manga

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Re: Proof of a soul? NDEs in the blind.
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2017, 12:48:36 AM »
Blind Man Paints by Touch



This individual was sighted until late childhood but did not paint prior to losing his vision entirely. I find it quite a testament to the power of touch. Combine that with things like discriptive writing, the brains ability to hallucinate, and the fact that someone who has blind from birth doesn't actually have any way to verify if the sky he saw was actually blue (I mean technically that's an issue for sighted people as well)...

BUT here is the point. There has been cases of people who were born blind claiming to "see' during their NDEs. How could this be, if they were always blind? Tests have been done on blind people. Those who could see earlier in their lives can see in their dreams. Those that were born blind could not. How then, could someone during an NDE see anything, unless they are lying, or a soul actually exists?
That is what I am confused about. Does this prove a soul in any way?

How do you know what they are claiming to "See" during their NDE's is actually what we would quantify as seeing? Maybe what they think or claim to see is only what they imagine "seeing" is actually like...

Anyway Magna you need to define what you mean by "soul" first, what is it you actually mean descriptively when you use this word?

I myself and I'm sure most of the folks here on this forum reject any notion of a "soul" or "spirit" as separate from the activity of the brain.

Francis Crick, codiscoverer of the structure of DNA, referred to it as “The Astonishing Hypothesis".  In Crick’s words, “You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal iden­tity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."



I also love this quote by the character Rust Cohle from True Detective. It mirrors my own personal thoughts on the subject fairly accurately, and I refer to often.

Quote
"I think human consciousness is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware. Nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself - we are creatures that should not exist by natural law... We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self, that accretion of sensory experience and feelings, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody's nobody...


Maybe, and quite possibly this misstep in evolution has happened elsewhere, probably it has, odds are highly in favor of it happening elsewhere in the universe, as nearly probable as life itself...but really all we are is self-aware, and because of this we find it hard to accept that this self-awarness will one day end, permanently.

Life continues on though, as it has for millions and millions of years, and that itself, that simple realization should be reassuring to us, but for many people this reality, this actual truth scares them.
 

I have never read, or listen to one NDE that made me think what I heard or read was true, I think most likely that the large majority of these incidents are lies, pure fabrication on the part of those who would go to any lengths to try and get people to believe as they do.
No different than any of the faith-healer's you see regularly on television pretending to heal people, or those who claim they speak or talk directly with god.

These people are lying manga,...how do I know they are lying you ask?

I can't as a person heal someone merely by placing my hands on their body, neither can anyone else for that matter, nor can I as a person speak directly to a god or gods (I've tried, believe me), but I can lie, and guess what, so can every other human on this planet.

We all do it, some more than others, but every single one of us possesses this ability to deceive...so when I hear stories about people possessing amazing supernatural powers to travel outside the body, or live on after death, or even magically heal others with merely a touch of their hand I am left with only one conclusion, and only one because there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the former being real I'm left with only one conclusion and that is they are most assuredly lying. (Although I will grant that there may be cases where people have experienced bizarre or seemingly unbelievable dreams of what you might refer to as NDE's caused by some chemical or biological occurrence within the brain, such as might occur due to lack of oxygen, etc..)

I think we have nothing to lose by letting go of our human belief in the soul, in fact I would state that we have everything to gain by doing so,... by shaking off the shackles of our fears and embracing the warm truth of our reality, maybe we can begin to work on building a better world in which all of us may live better lives for the short time each of us has, and ensure those who come after us have the same.

wait so do you think this person is lying?