Author Topic: Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.  (Read 2551 times)

TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« on: October 27, 2012, 03:04:42 PM »

I feel akin to these flat worms and if the gender options are changed and aggressive worm isn't added to the options I will be deeply offended, on my own account and for other wormies.


and


I feel obliged to protest against the implicit discrimination against inanimate objects.

and


Ahh the old object sexuality, don't forget the zoophiles either.

Not cool, guys.

I realize that you are trying to inject humor into the thread, but these are the very things religious conservatives say to humiliate and dehumanize those with different sexuality or identity.  In other words, if you give gays equal rights, then you must also give equal rights to people who have sex with animals or small children.   

It is offensive and hurtful--and I am speaking personally (my feelings) in addition to speaking for communities not reperesented on this board.

You need to walk a mile in the shoes of a trans-identified person or a person born neither male nor female and bullied over and over before you post such things.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 03:09:50 PM by TheWalkingContradiction »

En_Route

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 03:35:00 PM »

I feel akin to these flat worms and if the gender options are changed and aggressive worm isn't added to the options I will be deeply offended, on my own account and for other wormies.


and


I feel obliged to protest against the implicit discrimination against inanimate objects.

and


Ahh the old object sexuality, don't forget the zoophiles either.

Not cool, guys.

I realize that you are trying to inject humor into the thread, but these are the very things religious conservatives say to humiliate and dehumanize those with different sexuality or identity.  In other words, if you give gays equal rights, then you must also give equal rights to people who have sex with animals or small children.   

It is offensive and hurtful--and I am speaking personally (my feelings) in addition to speaking for communities not reperesented on this board.

You need to walk a mile in the shoes of a trans-identified person or a person born neither male nor female and bullied over and over before you post such things.


My  pleasantry (such as it was) designed to satirise what struck me into rather overblown agonising over a inconsequential matter.  How you can interpret a transparent piece of whimsy into a proposition  that "If you give gays equal rights, then you must also give equal rights to people who have sex with animals or small children." baffles me. I appreciate your extremely understandable sensitivities on this topic but you can be assured I am a little more sophisticated in my outlook than you imply.   
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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 04:34:46 PM »
Must we really forego the humour of this humorous subject? Really??

At what point must we stop taking the piss in the pursuit of humour? No one-legged pirate jokes, perhaps, because it's offensive to oversensitive amputees? No Jokes about the elderly doing daft things because my Granny has Alzheimers...? You're asking me to draw the line WAY too close to your own sensibilities, TWC. Very unfair.

If this complaint (and others like it) is upheld this place will have taken a sorry turn.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 04:36:21 PM by Scissorlegs »

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En_Route

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 05:30:02 PM »
Must we really forego the humour of this humorous subject? Really??

At what point must we stop taking the piss in the pursuit of humour? No one-legged pirate jokes, perhaps, because it's offensive to oversensitive amputees? No Jokes about the elderly doing daft things because my Granny has Alzheimers...? You're asking me to draw the line WAY too close to your own sensibilities, TWC. Very unfair.

If this complaint (and others like it) is upheld this place will have taken a sorry turn.

I agree.

Apart from this I often wonder at  people getting so personally offended when  strangers voice opinions which  they find objectionable. They seem to find it difficult to cope with the fact that such prejudices actually exist and this on turn provokes a knee- jerk emotional reaction.  Allowing ones buttons to be pushed so easily generally achieves little other than releasing bad chemicals into your system.
 
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 06:17:34 PM »
I can understand why people get emotionally invested in conversations here. The words and opinions of a few strangers (if you can call people that you talk to everyday "strangers") online might be meaningless in the grand scheme of our lives, but people are inherently social and HAF is a society. If no one really cared about anything that was said here, no one would be here. We all care to varying degrees.

That being said, I've never interpreted it to be in HAF's mandate that we need to prevent anyone from ever being offended.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 06:19:22 PM by DeterminedJuliet »
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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2012, 06:55:40 PM »
I think that if an idea is ridiculous, then it should be ridiculed, precisely so those dumb arguments equating gay sex with other forms previously mentioned can be dismantled and destroyed in their ridiculousness. Just my two cents. I don't see how making poking fun at ridiculous fringe conservative religious ideas taboo can make things better. ???

As for the OP's question, I think this forum could keep the feature, people are not obligated to choose to use it. Maybe add an 'other' option or something.   
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TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 07:45:37 PM »
I want to discuss this--not fight about it.

I kept this post and my previous one very calm.  Here, I am giving you a taste of a way your jokes can be taken.


My  pleasantry (such as it was) designed to satirise what struck me into rather overblown agonising over a inconsequential matter.    

Inconsequential for whom?    

Given the suicide rate in the LGBTQ community and how it stems directly from the way we are discriminated against, dehumanized, and mocked, I think it quite consequential.

Have you ever noticed how few LGBTQ people are on this site?  I told two friends about it in hopes that they would join, but they looked it over and said it is too homophobic for them.  Yes, there are many pro-gay sentiments here and a few non-LGBTQ members post truly inspirational things--but comments like the ones in this thread neutralize them.  Very, very sad.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 08:22:03 PM by TheWalkingContradiction »

TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2012, 08:01:10 PM »
Once again, discuss, not fight.

You're asking me to draw the line WAY too close to your own sensibilities, TWC. Very unfair.


And yet, the remark that keeps getting thrown in my face is how everyone here has the freedom to espress himself or herself.  Well, then, that is what I am doing.

Very unfair?  How?  An educated, cultured person who has evolved away from religious bigotry or who has grown up without it knows better than to mock minorities and knows how painful it is for such minorities to be mocked.  

There are many things I would like to say to people here but don't because I am not looking to offend others.  I am here to talk about important issues.  I like humor, and I employ it where it will not offend.  However, if someone says that something I have posted is offensive, I apologize and try to make amends.  I am human, so I do make errors.  I also do not always succeed in acting in the manner I wish to act, but I certainly try to.

What if I started telling every woman I disagreed with on the board that she was a cunt, a whore or a bitch?  I doubt the women here (or the moderators, regardless of their sex) would let me get away with it--and they would be right.  I would be totally in the wrong.  What if I started telling transfusion jokes about people with AIDS or bald jokes about people with cancer?  Quite simply, I never would.  What if I slurred an entire nation represented by many HAF posters in offensive terms?  I seem to recall that a pitched battle over the IRA occurred on this board not too long ago, so don't tell me no one would take offense.

And yet, isn't it my right to call any woman any name I want--especially if she is a moderator who "dared" tell a man what to do?  (I would be so out of line, as well as ashamed of myself.  My freedom of speech is less important that the dignity of other human beings regardless of their sex.)  Do I need to be sensitive to people who may have been affected by illness?  (Of course!  I seem to recall that folks here jumped to the written defense of the menally ill Christian girl in Pakistan who was framed by a religious leader--and they were right to do it.  A decent person cares when others are in pain and does not want to increase the pain.)  As for the IRA...  I would never mock either side.  I would listen and try to understand.  I cannot even imagine what people who have served in the IRA or been hurt by the IRA have been through.  It isn't for me to mock them.

Here in the United States, you cannot get away with insulting some groups (Christians, African Americans, veterans, women and Latinos in some cases, etc.).  Other groups (women and Latinos in other cases, atheists, gays, Native Americans, Jews, Arabs, gypsies, etc.) seem like fair game--except that it is not fair.  I monitor my language carefully, and even a seemingly innocent phrase like "He gyped you" will never leave these lips since it is a reference to gypsies.  ("He Jewed you down" also used to be popular, but fortunately that one is now recognized--at least here in New York, although not everywhere--as anti-Semitic and unacceptable.)

I see people whine on this board in thread after thread about how atheists are maligned.  That is because the us vs. them mentality is in our language, in our thinking and in our humor.  The same atheists who whine then go on to malign other groups.  Liberated gay males set up gay bars that discourage African American gays from being patrons.  African Americans who are proud of their heritage and culture prevent Haitians from moving into their buildings and dehumanize them in terms worthy of the KKK.  Black and white join together in an unholy alliance to deport Mexicans.  Where does it end?

It ends when we are willing to make it end.  It ends when we take responsibility for our words and actions...  and jokes.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 08:24:32 PM by TheWalkingContradiction »

TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2012, 08:02:50 PM »
Allowing ones buttons to be pushed so easily generally achieves little other than releasing bad chemicals into your system.
 

It's called defending yourself and your community, something I see many atheists here doing.  And quite frankly, I think the atheist buttons of many here get pushed far more easily than mine do.

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2012, 09:51:25 PM »
And yet, the remark that keeps getting thrown in my face is how everyone here has the freedom to espress himself or herself.  Well, then, that is what I am doing.

Very unfair?  No.  I say that an educated, cultured person who has evolved away from religious bigotry or who has grown up without it knows better than to mock minorities and knows how painful it is for such minorities to be mocked. 

 

Although I'm totally lacking in culture I wouldn't mock you for being gay.   If I find your view to be ridiculous I won't feel constrained from mocking you though, even if I am going to be labelled a homophobe.


There are many things I would like to say to people here but don't because I am not looking to offend others.  I am here to talk about important issues.  I like humor, and I employ it where it will not offend. 

How extraordinarily boring, have you employed any lately? I may have missed it.


What if I started telling bald jokes about people with cancer

It would depend on the context, if a parent was talking about their child I'd advise against it.  A person who had cancer might appreciate a bald joke, I might risk it.  They might not like being treated like a fragile thing wrapped in cotton wool.  You're not a spokesperson for cancer sufferers as well are you?


I see people whine on this board in thread after thread about how atheists are maligned. 


We whine do we? 

The same atheists who whine then go on to malign other groups. 
Well they might malign other groups, perhaps the other groups deserved to be maligned.  I think the more frequent scenario here would be someone making legitimate complaints in a non whiney manner and then going on to defend other groups.


I want to discuss this--not fight about it.

I kept this post and my previous one very calm.  Here, I am giving you a taste of a way your jokes can be taken.


My  pleasantry (such as it was) designed to satirise what struck me into rather overblown agonising over a inconsequential matter.     

Inconsequential for whom?   

Given the suicide rate in the LGBTQ community and how it stems directly from the way we are discriminated against, dehumanized, and mocked, I think it quite consequential.


What, someone's going to off themselves because of En_Route's post?  I'm not sure all the LGBTQ community would welcome you as an advocate, making trivial points, always playing the victim, it trivialises the important issues.


Have you ever noticed how few LGBTQ people are on this site? 

No I hadn't noticed, there is and have been quite a few.  Have we fallen below some acceptable quota?


Have you ever noticed how few LGBTQ people are on this site?  I told two friends about it in hopes that they would join, but they looked it over and said it is too homophobic for them.  Yes, there are many pro-gay sentiments here and a few non-LGBTQ members post truly inspirational things--but comments like the ones in this thread neutralize them.  Very, very sad.

Well if they find this place homophobic I think they are being unreasonable, I don't know anyone here who says negative things about gays, apart from the occasional passing troll.  Jeez all the positive threads and posts and we're still homophobic, still I don't accept you as representative, not everyone wants the cotton wool treatment.


If someone doesn't want to identify as male/female/blank they could use the custom title, the Personal Text, or the Signature.

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2012, 10:18:49 PM »
This point in the discussion presents a fine opportunity to remind all members of the first point in the Conduct Guidelines posted in the Forum Rules. To wit:

Quote
TIME OUT: All members should take time to think and cool down before responding to posts in an angry, disrespectful, or otherwise inappropriate tone (including intoxication). This approach will help to maintain a civil tone and allow members to avoid making posts they will later regret.

Though things have warmed up in this thread, I don't think anyone has said anything particularly regrettable so far, and it is to be hoped that it remains that way.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 10:24:22 PM by Recusant »
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TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2012, 10:55:22 PM »

Although I'm totally lacking in culture I wouldn't mock you for being gay.   If I find your view to be ridiculous I won't feel constrained from mocking you though, even if I am going to be labelled a homophobe.
 

Mock me and I will mock you back.  No dialogue will occur.  

Treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect.  Dialogue will occur.

Mockery has no place on a board populated by intelligent people.

There are many things I would like to say to people here but don't because I am not looking to offend others.  I am here to talk about important issues.  I like humor, and I employ it where it will not offend.  

How extraordinarily boring, have you employed any lately? I may have missed it.

All over the board, actually, and I have gotten many comments of LOL and ROTFLMAO.  You should not accuse me of something unless you have the facts.

Why is it wrong to want serious discussion on a serious topic without a string of pointless jokes that dilute the value of the conversation?  I usually ignore the jokes, but in this case I would not have been able to sleep at night if I did not point out how unfair they were.  In the end, defending my community is more important that you or this board.  don't care about this board the way I care about people who have deeply been hurt and don't know where to turn.  I do what I do as a teacher and as a volunteer worker because often, if I don't, no one will.  Much of what I encounter is deeply disturbing.  So, no, I cannot laugh at these "jokes."  


It would depend on the context, if a parent was talking about their child I'd advise against it.  A person who had cancer might appreciate a bald joke, I might risk it.  They might not like being treated like a fragile thing wrapped in cotton wool.  You're not a spokesperson for cancer sufferers as well are you?

You are just plain rude here, and you conduct is unacceptable.  When did I ever claim to represent cancer sufferers or anyone else?  Why would you sarcastically ask if I had?  What I do claim is that I am a teacher whose classroom contains no mockery and no judgment.  That means gay people cannot mock heterosexuals and for the same reason heterosexuals cannot mock gay people.  That means people of color cannot mock whites for the same reason that whites cannot mock people of color.  If you don't like it, take it up with my university.  It is the university's code of conduct to ensure everyone's dignity, and I have taught there for seven years after teaching in a horrible university for eleven years.

You have also completely missed the context.

Look carefully at the exact words I wrote.  A few posts back I stated that some people would prefer to identify as neither male nor female publicly while others would prefer not to select any option.  Similarly, some cancer survivors do not like jokes about what they have gone through while others adore them and tell them themselves.  It depends on the person.  (And I can say that since I know quite a few cancer survivors.)  This is a public forum, and you do not know where people are coming from.  For that reason, if there is a chance that a joke can hurt someone, it must be avoided.

Why hurt someone for no reason?  That is the question I have been asking all my life, and one of the main reasons I became an atheist.  


We whine do we?  

Without question.  And that is the observation of others who are not on the board, not just me.  Personally, I don't think it is a bad thing.  Atheists are the victims of many, and they have the right to whine in order to vent.  I did not mean to imply that whining was a bad thing.  In many cases, I think it is necessary.  I whine because others here whine.    

Well they might malign other groups, perhaps the other groups deserved to be maligned.

By that logic, if Christians malign atheists through lack of logic and supernatural beliefs, perhaps atheists deserve to be maligned.  


What, someone's going to off themselves because of En_Route's post?  I'm not sure all the LGBTQ community would welcome you as an advocate, making trivial points, always playing the victim, it trivialises the important issues.

When did I ever say everyone in the LGBTQ community would welcome (or even agree with) me?  Obviously, many would and many would not.  I speak for myself and people I know who are often too afraid to speak for themselves.  I do not speak for the whole LGBTQ community, nor do I agree with every aspect of it.  For example, when white gays exclude gays of color from bars, I want no part of those white gays.  Then again, I hate bars anyway, so bar and club culture is not for me--although I think they are a good thing for others.  There is no uniform voice or uniform way of looking at the world in the LGBTQ community, and it is simplistic thinking to think there is.

It is offensive for you to say that I "always play the victim" or am "making trivial points."  What is trivial to you is not necessarily trivial to me.  Who are you to judge me?  Who are you to say what I have been through?  Who are you to determine whether or not I am a victim?  Yes, who are you indeed?



No I hadn't noticed, there is and have been quite a few.  Have we fallen below some acceptable quota?

That is a snarky remark.  It is not worthy of you.


Well if they find this place homophobic I think they are being unreasonable,

And now you judge my friends, whom you don't even know.  They have the right to say whatever they wish about this board--especially since the prevailing attitude here is that anyone has the right to say whatever he or she wishes.  Do not take it upon yourself to judge my friends.  You don't know them.  You don't know what torture heterosexist society has put them through.  You do not know if they are reasonable or unreasonable.  

Are they victims?  Most definitely.    

« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:06:59 PM by TheWalkingContradiction »

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2012, 11:01:28 PM »
Man, I missed this place.



Ignore me. Just here for the show.
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TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2012, 11:25:53 PM »
Man, I missed this place.


Ignore me. Just here for the show.

That remark and the picture are hurtful.  I am taking away time from all the work I still have to do this weekend so that I can clarify points and perhaps make posters see the effect of their mockery--and this on a board I joined for downtime and recreation (neither of which I get here).  

This issue is very important and must be discussed.
  
Join the discussion if you wish.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:31:09 PM by TheWalkingContradiction »

TheWalkingContradiction

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Re: Gender Identification option on the profile.
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2012, 11:50:23 PM »
Man, I missed this place.


Ignore me. Just here for the show.

That remark is not necessary.

Join the discussion if you wish.  

My remark was unnecessary but your remark about my remark being unnecessary was necessary? Hmm.

I have no desire to join in the discussion as I personally don't care one way or the other about the actual topic of this thread (to leave or remove the gender field on the profile). My "unnecessary" remark is simply a statement of appreciation about being privy to a place like the forum and the quality of the discussions that go on.

I'm sorry; I suppose all that was unnecessary, as well. As I said before: ignore me and continue as you please. (Or, if you like, feel free to remark on my remark about your remark on my remark.)

This is the problem.  I take these issues and the words here very seriously.  I try to the best of my ability to live my life in a way that helps people who have been hurt because I too have been hurt.  Nothing could be more important to many people (not just me) than the things I have been discussing. I would think that atheists, who have often been through horrible situations while becoming atheists, would get it.

You are just trying to be funny and don't see the seriousness of the issues.  I don't get it.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 11:52:45 PM by TheWalkingContradiction »