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Our basic instincts or something more?

Started by Sweetdeath, August 08, 2012, 10:24:52 PM

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Ecurb Noselrub

The idea of serial monogamy has some merit.  Our life spans used to be 30-40 years - long enough to have kids and maybe get them to adulthood.  Now we live to our 80's.  It's just hard to stay with one person that long - thus the about 50% divorce rate around here.  People living that long go through a lot of changes, and it's almost unreasonable to expect anyone to stay fully satisfied with one person for 5-6 decades.  On the other hand, a commitment is a commitment, and I don't think cheating is cool under any circumstances. As for an open marriage, it's hard for me to imagine.  In practice it would just get too messy.  It's very hard to separate sex from emotional attachment for me, so I don't think it would work in my case.

Synapse

From a evolutionary psychology viewpoint (If I sound sexist, forgive me. I'm only reporting the general consensus.):

Human beings seem to have both short-term and long-term mating strategies. This applies to both genders, although the 'reasons' (more like impulses) to do so differ.

Females tend to look for males with ability and willingness to share resources for long-term mating. This is because females tend to be the one stuck with the child-bearing and their own resource-gathering ability suffers as a result. This is also why females detest emotional infidelity (resources can diverted to some other female). For short-term mating, females go for attractive males rather than resourceful males (check out the sexy son hypothesis). This long-term and short-term pattern often leads to cuckoldry.

Males, not surprisingly, do what they can to avoid being cuckolded. Their long-term strategy is to invest resources in females in exchange for sexual access and fidelity. Therefore, where females detest emotional infidelity by their mates, males detest sexual infidelity (relatively speaking). However, because males are not burdened by child-raising, short-term mating for them is easier. Attractiveness seems to be less important for male short-term mating than for females. For men, it's quantity over quality. This is to the extent that being in the presence of a new viable female will replenish a male's libido instantly, even when the male could have had sex with the normal sexual partner (see the Coolidge effect). And as you may see the interconnection by now, the attractive males are the ones more successful at this.

Main point is, in an evolutionary sense, being in a long-term relationship does not stop people (from either sex) from fornicating around. So, yes, it is basic instinct.

If you are interested:
Sexy sons - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis
Infidelity - http://www.livescience.com/8065-men-women-jealous-reasons.html
Coolidge effect - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolidge_effect

Sweetdeath

This is pretty interesting.
Do i think like a male then? I can associate and sympathize with how they feel about being chained down to one person and just wanting to do as I please.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Amicale

Quote from: SweetdeathI think it brings us all down to "Is it normal to want to sleep with more than one person even in a relationship?"

As others have said, I'm sure it's a common human experience to have desires for someone other than your partner. Particularly in a long-term relationship, one that goes on for years if not decades, probably a lot of people wonder what it would be like to be with someone else, either sexually or emotionally. As Ali stated, one person can't fulfill all of our needs; we need outside hobbies, interests, friends, etc. However, on a personal level - when I'm in a relationship, I'm in that relationship with that one person because I've made a choice to be, and to stay. I've made a commitment to them.

Personally, emotional fidelity is much more important to me than anything else. I'm also OK with the Dan Savage 'monogamish' idea in principle and I understand it works well for some folks, although I suspect it wouldn't work for me. I value stability too much, and working at growing closer with the one person I'm with at the time. I do think that serial monogamy is probably a natural tendency for a lot of people - being with one partner at a time, over the course of your life. If you're (generic you) in your 20s now, there's no guarantee the person you're with will be with you in your 70s or 80s. Maybe I'm an optimist, though, because when I enter into a relationship, I do everything I can to make it work and make it last as long as it can... and I do hope to get married and settle down and be with the same person for as long as we both can be. It may not be what happens, but I hope for it. :)


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: En_Route on August 09, 2012, 01:14:41 AM
The theory sounds liberal and enlightened; the practice is in my opinion likely to prove messier.

I suppose it's lucky that you aren't married to me, then.  ;)
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Happy_Is_Good

Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 08, 2012, 10:24:52 PM
So  i've been playing the game Catherine for the xbox lately. It's a great puzzle game about a man named Vincent who accidentally cheats on his girlfriend Katherine. She's a dull, workaholic who pretty much organizes his life for him.

Then he gets drunk and meets a cute blonde named Catherine. She's fun, free, and lives life how she pleases with no chains of marriage or children to tie her down.

This game is not only fun and challenging. But i really do love the story.

I think it brings us all down to "Is it normal to want to sleep with more than one person even in a relationship?"

I mean, we all want companion, and that person to come home to. But surely one person cannot furfill all of our needs, in bed or other wise.

I mean, is society forcing us to feel like we have to be monogamous in order to cause less 'chaos' or what?

In my opinion, i think we all desire more than one mate. I don't mean marrying more than one person, but i mean, being with your companion, and then doing things with other people who furfil your other desires. No one is perfect and no one person is perfect for you.

Are we simply denying these urges just to 'fit in' ?

I don't know. What are your opinions? ^^;

I really love this game. Check it out sometime if you can.


Blah, Blah Blah....I've seen this before, and I've seen who plays it.  It always ends in heartbreak and humiliation.

I had a friend in college who told me that women think the same as you've described, so he "played the game" so to speak.  My friend played your game.  He was good looking, a weightlifter and a very promising engineering student: he had brains, muscle and the ability to make big bucks - he was a heartthrob and he knew it.  And he played on his attributes for all they were worth.

As a rule (for the four years I knew him), he always dated women like yourself - and he always broke their hearts.  I mean, he didn't care what they felt....he just "wanted some leg" so-to-speak.  To the women, He was exciting, he was a reliable bread winner, he was everything a coed could want: except he was a heart breaker.  This guy used to seek out women like yourself and target them unmercifully for he had no respect for them and told us guys likewise when we asked.  We guys never said a thing.

It was a crazy thing to see when he would dump some gal after he got tired with her - the pain, remorse and anger were epic, and there was nothing she could do, and no one would sympathize with her.   Hey...she was a "Player" that got "Played" was all we though - and everyone else, too. 

Later, this guy actually married a nice young woman and settled down, and after 20+ years of marriage they are still together.  And...I can guarantee their fidelity is absolute, or this guy would have driven his wife to suicide long ago.  But...I here she is quite happy.

Moral of the story is this...play with fire and think it's fun. and you'll eventually meet the devil himself.  (I say this even though I am an atheist).

hismikeness

Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 08, 2012, 10:24:52 PM
I think it brings us all down to "Is it normal to want to sleep with more than one person even in a relationship?"

Threesome?  ;)

Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 08, 2012, 10:24:52 PM
I mean, we all want companion, and that person to come home to. But surely one person cannot furfill all of our needs, in bed or other wise.

I mean, is society forcing us to feel like we have to be monogamous in order to cause less 'chaos' or what?

In my opinion, i think we all desire more than one mate. I don't mean marrying more than one person, but i mean, being with your companion, and then doing things with other people who furfil your other desires. No one is perfect and no one person is perfect for you.

Are we simply denying these urges just to 'fit in' ?

I think it is normal to want to have an affair, but in a relationship, regardless of desires, in my opinion, your partner's feelings should come first. So, if you've broached the subject and he/she is cool with it, game on. If you haven't or if he/she is not, then you must stay true. If you can't do that, it probably speaks to something wrong with the relationship and it's time to get out.

To your point about one person fulfilling our needs- I think that is what friends are for. Essentially, I have affairs on my wife all the time with friends, co workers, doctors, etc, just not sexual affairs. I don't share everything with her, but she gets the vast majority of it. But sexually, she is the only one. Period. (except in my head...)
No churches have free wifi because they don't want to compete with an invisible force that works.

When the alien invasion does indeed happen, if everyone would just go out into the streets & inexpertly play the flute, they'll just go. -@UncleDynamite

En_Route

Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 09, 2012, 05:20:51 AM
Quote from: En_Route on August 09, 2012, 01:14:41 AM
The theory sounds liberal and enlightened; the practice is in my opinion likely to prove messier.

I suppose it's lucky that you aren't married to me, then.  ;)

Lucky for you, certainly.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

DeterminedJuliet

Quote from: En_Route on August 09, 2012, 10:50:49 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on August 09, 2012, 05:20:51 AM
Quote from: En_Route on August 09, 2012, 01:14:41 AM
The theory sounds liberal and enlightened; the practice is in my opinion likely to prove messier.

I suppose it's lucky that you aren't married to me, then.  ;)

Lucky for you, certainly.

:D
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Ali

Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on August 09, 2012, 07:50:17 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on August 08, 2012, 10:24:52 PM
So  i've been playing the game Catherine for the xbox lately. It's a great puzzle game about a man named Vincent who accidentally cheats on his girlfriend Katherine. She's a dull, workaholic who pretty much organizes his life for him.

Then he gets drunk and meets a cute blonde named Catherine. She's fun, free, and lives life how she pleases with no chains of marriage or children to tie her down.

This game is not only fun and challenging. But i really do love the story.

I think it brings us all down to "Is it normal to want to sleep with more than one person even in a relationship?"

I mean, we all want companion, and that person to come home to. But surely one person cannot furfill all of our needs, in bed or other wise.

I mean, is society forcing us to feel like we have to be monogamous in order to cause less 'chaos' or what?

In my opinion, i think we all desire more than one mate. I don't mean marrying more than one person, but i mean, being with your companion, and then doing things with other people who furfil your other desires. No one is perfect and no one person is perfect for you.

Are we simply denying these urges just to 'fit in' ?

I don't know. What are your opinions? ^^;

I really love this game. Check it out sometime if you can.


Blah, Blah Blah....I've seen this before, and I've seen who plays it.  It always ends in heartbreak and humiliation.

I had a friend in college who told me that women think the same as you've described, so he "played the game" so to speak.  My friend played your game.  He was good looking, a weightlifter and a very promising engineering student: he had brains, muscle and the ability to make big bucks - he was a heartthrob and he knew it.  And he played on his attributes for all they were worth.

As a rule (for the four years I knew him), he always dated women like yourself - and he always broke their hearts.  I mean, he didn't care what they felt....he just "wanted some leg" so-to-speak.  To the women, He was exciting, he was a reliable bread winner, he was everything a coed could want: except he was a heart breaker.  This guy used to seek out women like yourself and target them unmercifully for he had no respect for them and told us guys likewise when we asked.  We guys never said a thing.

It was a crazy thing to see when he would dump some gal after he got tired with her - the pain, remorse and anger were epic, and there was nothing she could do, and no one would sympathize with her.   Hey...she was a "Player" that got "Played" was all we though - and everyone else, too. 

Later, this guy actually married a nice young woman and settled down, and after 20+ years of marriage they are still together.  And...I can guarantee their fidelity is absolute, or this guy would have driven his wife to suicide long ago.  But...I here she is quite happy.

Moral of the story is this...play with fire and think it's fun. and you'll eventually meet the devil himself.  (I say this even though I am an atheist).

Am I the only one that was giggling at the idea that some big wrestler Mr Man type could break SD's heart?  ;D


hismikeness

^^ Nope... I was thinking somebody hasn't really read all of Sweetdeath's posts.  :D
No churches have free wifi because they don't want to compete with an invisible force that works.

When the alien invasion does indeed happen, if everyone would just go out into the streets & inexpertly play the flute, they'll just go. -@UncleDynamite

Tank

If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

AnimatedDirt


hismikeness

Quote from: AnimatedDirt on August 09, 2012, 05:01:23 PM
Quote from: hismikeness on August 09, 2012, 08:52:05 AM
But sexually, she is the only one. Period. (except in my head...)

So true...

I do tell her about the ones that stay in my head... Mostly famous brunettes (Jennifer Love Hewitt, Jessica Alba, Mila Kunis, Anne Hathaway) and my wife is a natural blonde. So she accuses me of not liking blondes. I just tell her JJ from Criminal Minds, Kate Upton and Nicole Kidman.  ;D
No churches have free wifi because they don't want to compete with an invisible force that works.

When the alien invasion does indeed happen, if everyone would just go out into the streets & inexpertly play the flute, they'll just go. -@UncleDynamite

Asmodean

Heh... I don't see the problem, really... If you want to have multiple partners but your current partner does not, do what is sensible when two parties want very different things - end the relationship and find another.

In my experience, some people enjoy this sort of romantic notion of two people together forever, in love to the end etc, etc... In my unrelated experience, the warm and fuzzy inevitably goes away. If not entirely, at least for the most part.

My point is: It doesn't matter if it's instinct, upbringing or whatever. What matters is what you do with it, and only you can be a fair judge of that from your own point of view.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.