The Pointlessness of Prayer

[Non Quixote]

There is  some research which indicates a correlation between health benefits  and pet ownership, taking into account co- factors such as age , income, sociability etc though the reasons for the linkage remain unclear. And of course a healthy scepticism needs to inform any discussion of medical research findings.

I am good with that.[/quote]There is plenty of social science research done which does not require anyone to regulate the lives of the human subjects.[/quote]Then it is really just an informed guess.

There has been a study done on testing the power of prayer which showed nil effect on the outcomes for medical patients.

I am aware of at least one study with that finding, I simply question the methodology.

[Non Quixote]

Merely knowing  advance in what someone will choose does not mean that they have not made a choice.
In my own view, free will cannot logically exist, irrespective of the existence of any alleged creator.

If you do not have a choice can you still make one?

On the other hand we may be wandering dangerously close to a semantic argument.

I agree that free will does not exist from either a secular or religious standpoint.

[Stevil]

What you propose is akin to the ice cream drowning fallacy.  Just because there are more drowning deaths when ice cream sales are high doesn't mean that ice cream has anything to do with the drownings.

Unfortunately, I feel you are giving up too quickly.
Finding a correlation between drownings and ice cream sales is important.
It doesn't mean that drownings are because of ice cream sales but it can point to either one being the cause of the other or cause common to both.
In this case the common cause would be hot sunny days.

If there was found to be no correlation, then that in itself would be interesting as a person might think that hot sunny days ought to be a common cause, but the evidence would then suggest otherwise.

What I am suggesting is that if there is no difference in the probability of prayed for events compared to the probability of non prayed for events, then we are showing that in general, prayer does not work.

It might be the case that prayer does work but only in rare cases, maybe only prayer from some scientologists work. In the general tests the few that work might be insignificant thus might not show up with regards to a significant improvement of probability.

So maybe each organisation should be tested. Does prayer from Catholics work, how about from Hindus...

If we don't find any correlation then the majority of these prayers don't work.
If a person believed that request prayer works, I don't understand why they wouldn't research it more to find out how to improve the success rate.

Start broad and then fine tune, that's how scientists do it don't they?

Anyway, I am sure that no-one will find that request prayer works because:
1.   There is no god
2.   No one answers prayer
3.   Even those that believe in gods that answer prayer, when pushed they come up with explainations as to why reality operates as if 1 and 2 are true.

[En_Route]

Merely knowing  advance in what someone will choose does not mean that they have not made a choice.
In my own view, free will cannot logically exist, irrespective of the existence of any alleged creator.

If you do not have a choice can you still make one?

On the other hand we may be wandering dangerously close to a semantic argument.

I agree that free will does not exist from either a secular or religious standpoint.

I think we are probably verbally hair- splitting . I think choices are still choices even if they are predetermined.
But free will, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions, just cannot be true.

[Non Quixote]

Unfortunately, I feel you are giving up too quickly.
Finding a correlation between drownings and ice cream sales is important.

Finding the correlation between ice cream sales and drowning matters not a whit since the two things occur independently.  Unless you are hoping to ban either ice cream sales or summertime.  The correlation between more an increase in people swimming and drowning is the only correlation that matters, "ice cream sales" is completely incidental and unrelated to drowning, but feel free to chase that and ignore the more obvious correlations.

What I am suggesting is that if there is no difference in the probability of prayed for events compared to the probability of non prayed for events, then we are showing that in general, prayer does not work.

It might be the case that prayer does work but only in rare cases, maybe only prayer from some scientologists work. In the general tests the few that work might be insignificant thus might not show up with regards to a significant improvement of probability.

So maybe each organisation should be tested. Does prayer from Catholics work, how about from Hindus...

If we don't find any correlation then the majority of these prayers don't work.

Again, what constitutes a prayer?

If a person believed that request prayer works, I don't understand why they wouldn't research it more to find out how to improve the success rate.

Start broad and then fine tune, that's how scientists do it don't they?

Anyway, I am sure that no-one will find that request prayer works because:
1.   There is no god
2.   No one answers prayer
3.   Even those that believe in gods that answer prayer, when pushed they come up with explainations as to why reality operates as if 1 and 2 are true.

My original reply was that controlling the variables would be a nightmare, a statement which I still firmly stand by.  Are you arguing that it would not be?

[Non Quixote]

I think we are probably verbally hair- splitting . I think choices are still choices even if they are predetermined.
But free will, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions, just cannot be true.

Agreed, I believe that we aiming for the same target, but I am still of the opinion that a choice is not a choice when the alternative is an illusion.

[En_Route]

I think we are probably verbally hair- splitting . I think choices are still choices even if they are predetermined.
But free will, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions, just cannot be true.

Agreed, I believe that we aiming for the same target, but I am still of the opinion that a choice is not a choice when the alternative is an illusion.

I think we do select between alternatives. If determinism is true then that choice is one we were always bound to make. If determinism is not true, then our choice is inherently random and unpredictable. Either way, the idea of free will is otiose.

[Stevil]

I am still of the opinion that a choice is not a choice when the alternative is an illusion.

Do you believe that you can decide to make and cause events that are contrary to the physical laws of existence?
Do you think anything you do (even thinking) is not 100% bound to the physical laws of existence?

[markmcdaniel]

Are prayers pointless? almost certainly the answer must be yes. If God has a plan and every thing must exists in accordance with that plan, then, prayers will be answered if it fits with that plan. Any prayer that does not fit with that plan cannot be answered in the affirmative. 

[The Magic Pudding]

Are prayers pointless? almost certainly the answer must be yes. If God has a plan and every thing must exists in accordance with that plan, then, prayers will be answered if it fits with that plan. Any prayer that does not fit with that plan cannot be answered in the affirmative. 

No no no, there is a different pattern of positive responses to prayers for each person.  You might get the prize on your 7th, 49th, 233rd and 312th prayer.  A prayer may not get you what's wanted but it brings you closer to a win.  It is possible that god is a spiteful bastard and enjoys granting wishes that bring you misfortune.

[markmcdaniel]

Are prayers pointless? almost certainly the answer must be yes. If God has a plan and every thing must exists in accordance with that plan, then, prayers will be answered if it fits with that plan. Any prayer that does not fit with that plan cannot be answered in the affirmative. 

No no no, there is a different pattern of positive responses to prayers for each person.  You might get the prize on your 7th, 49th, 233rd and 312th prayer.  A prayer may not get you what's wanted but it brings you closer to a win.  It is possible that god is a spiteful bastard and enjoys granting wishes that bring you misfortune.

And do not forget that God needs time to alter his plans. And its that God is a Mean, spiteful and capricious bastard.

[Sweetdeath]

Merely knowing  advance in what someone will choose does not mean that they have not made a choice.
In my own view, free will cannot logically exist, irrespective of the existence of any alleged creator.

If you do not have a choice can you still make one?

On the other hand we may be wandering dangerously close to a semantic argument.

I agree that free will does not exist from either a secular or religious standpoint.

I think we are probably verbally hair- splitting . I think choices are still choices even if they are predetermined.
But free will, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions, just cannot be true.

You seriously don't think people are able to make their own choices without a third party being involved?

[En_Route]

Merely knowing  advance in what someone will choose does not mean that they have not made a choice.
In my own view, free will cannot logically exist, irrespective of the existence of any alleged creator.

If you do not have a choice can you still make one?

On the other hand we may be wandering dangerously close to a semantic argument.

I agree that free will does not exist from either a secular or religious standpoint.

I think we are probably verbally hair- splitting . I think choices are still choices even if they are predetermined.
But free will, the idea that we are ultimately responsible for our actions, just cannot be true.

You seriously don't think people are able to make their own choices without a third party being involved?

Sorry, but I don't understand your comment.

[OldGit]

If we are able to make choices in any sense, which part of us does the deciding?  It has been shown many times, by brain scans, that a decision is taken seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it.  It seems that there is more than one 'person' inside every head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If we are able to make choices in any sense, which part of us does the deciding?  It has been shown many times, by brain scans, that a decision is taken seconds before the conscious mind is aware of it.  It seems that there is more than one 'person' inside every head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

Well, the brain itself is deciding. Consciously becoming aware of that decision is just the peanut gallery applauding what the brain did.