The Pointlessness of Prayer

[Non Quixote]

I apologize in advance if the subject has been done to death, but does prayer also seem pointless to the majority of atheists who post here?  I don't mean for yourselves, of course it is pointless to pray to a god that you are certain doesn't exist, I mean pointless even if you do believe in the Christian god?

If the Christian god is omnipotent and is truly the Alpha and Omega to his followers, it reasonably follows that he is omniscient.  If he is omniscient then he is prescient.  If he is prescient he knows every single event that will happen unto the end of time. 

Absolute knowledge is what I mean, knowledge of events that is completely and wholly immutable.  Not a particle can change its position in the universe that the Christian god did not already foresee.

So will prayer change a future that is already written and known down to the smallest immutable event by the omnipotent Christian god?

I know this subject is interwoven with the illusion of free will, but I was hoping to address just prayer.  May not be possible to separate the two though.

[Stevil]

You are assuming that prayer is for requests.
Give me money, give me good health, let my loved one survive the accident, let me win a game, give me strength.

Anyone with any grasp on statistics and an intellectual honesty to themselves will realise that request prayers are never answered. Otherwise we would have measurable statistics that prove prayer works, no only that we will have concrete proof with regards to which god answers prayer.

Of course, compartmentalisation can allow a person to not engage in critical thought with regards to the obvious issue of statistics not showing any difference for prayed for events.

But I presume there are other reasons for prayer. All of which could be performed towards any imaginary "friend"
The thanks prayer
The "be the best friend I never had" and listen to my ramblings prayer. (a one sided conversation, much like a diary journal)

Imagination is a powerful thing. Sportspeople use visualisation all the time. I've done it playing pool, made many shots in my head, saw it played out, and could "see" if it looked odd, I used it to adjust my shot and saw that it had much value.

So a person can imagine having a conversation with an imaginary friend (god, Jesus, et all) and it can seem very real to them. They then think they have a very special personal relationship. When things do go well in their life they imagine that god is blessing them for being a good person, a good friend, when things don't go well, it is because of chance or because god has a bigger plan for them. They feel special and loved.

So prayer is a tool, to allow the followers to believe that god is real and is their friend, to make them connect and want to please it. If I were wanting to make money out of religion, I would certainly advise my "customers" to pray often.

[history_geek]

I think that sums it up rather well.

But honestly, I think it does have, as most things religious or "spiritual", a pseudo effect. It makes a person feel like they have done something, when in fact they have done nothing ("the least I could do", indeed). But beyond this "feel good", it's useless, in my opinion.

[Non Quixote]

You are assuming that prayer is for requests.
Give me money, give me good health, let my loved one survive the accident, let me win a game, give me strength.

Anyone with any grasp on statistics and an intellectual honesty to themselves will realise that request prayers are never answered. Otherwise we would have measurable statistics that prove prayer works, no only that we will have concrete proof with regards to which god answers prayer.

Of course, compartmentalisation can allow a person to not engage in critical thought with regards to the obvious issue of statistics not showing any difference for prayed for events.

But I presume there are other reasons for prayer. All of which could be performed towards any imaginary "friend"
The thanks prayer
The "be the best friend I never had" and listen to my ramblings prayer. (a one sided conversation, much like a diary journal)

Imagination is a powerful thing. Sportspeople use visualisation all the time. I've done it playing pool, made many shots in my head, saw it played out, and could "see" if it looked odd, I used it to adjust my shot and saw that it had much value.

So a person can imagine having a conversation with an imaginary friend (god, Jesus, et all) and it can seem very real to them. They then think they have a very special personal relationship. When things do go well in their life they imagine that god is blessing them for being a good person, a good friend, when things don't go well, it is because of chance or because god has a bigger plan for them. They feel special and loved.

So prayer is a tool, to allow the followers to believe that god is real and is their friend, to make them connect and want to please it. If I were wanting to make money out of religion, I would certainly advise my "customers" to pray often.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything that you said, and I was referring to materialistic prayers, thanks for pointing that out.  The placebo effect of prayer is one that I can't deny, I've felt it myself.

My thought was how can an otherwise rational creature (I'm assuming that at least some Christians are rational outside of religion) not see the fallacy of influencing a future that is already written and cannot be changed?

Compartmentalization is the obvious cheap choice, and simply not thinking about the process certainly works for folks who can do that.  But they must have other ways of coping with the paradox.

[hismikeness]

So will prayer change a future that is already written and known down to the smallest immutable event by the omnipotent Christian god?

Dear Jesus,

Please change the natural order of things to my favor.

Love,
Hismikeness

[Stevil]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything that you said, and I was referring to materialistic prayers, thanks for pointing that out.  The placebo effect of prayer is one that I can't deny, I've felt it myself.

My thought was how can an otherwise rational creature (I'm assuming that at least some Christians are rational outside of religion) not see the fallacy of influencing a future that is already written and cannot be changed?

Compartmentalization is the obvious cheap choice, and simply not thinking about the process certainly works for folks who can do that.  But they must have other ways of coping with the paradox.

Here is an interesting article that I found. Written by theists. Experiments on Distant Intercessory Prayer
They set out to measure the effects of distant prayer, but in formulating their experiment plan they gave up.

We conclude that research on the effects of religion and spirituality on health should avoid attempting to validate God through scientific methods.

It is an extremely long article, but well written and easily understandable for a non theist.
They ask some very valid and important questions,

Is the amount of prayer important? Is the type of prayer important? The form? The duration? The frequency? The level of fervency? The entity to whom it is directed? The number of prayers per unit of time? Does the number of intercessors matter? Does a team vs individual intercession method matter? Does the faith tradition of the intercessor and/or intercessee matter? Does the power of the intercessor matter? Do the beliefs and experiences of the intercessor and/or intercessee matter? Does the worthiness of the intercessor and/or intercessee matter?

but I feel they give up too quickly.

This list, unfortunately, generated questions of its own: If type or form is important, just how many types or forms are there? On what basis would you distinguish them? If "fervency" is important, how would you ever measure it to be able to manipulate it? The same is true if the power or worthiness of the intercessor is important: how would you ever measure them?

Of course these are valid questions, but I feel they ought to focus on a high level rather than to know all the little details.
If they can prove, statistically, that prayer works, then they can do further experiments to workout the subtleties and hence improve the effectiveness of prayer. Need to start from somewhere.
A fortune could be made if someone produces a guidebook to effective prayer, backed up by independently performed and verified experiments with supporting data.

They come up with further defeatist excuses

The epistemology that governs prayer (and all matters of faith) is separate from that which governs nature. Why, then, attempt to explicate it as if it were a controllable, natural phenomenon?

But if this were true, then this alone proves that request prayer does not work. If we can't control nature e.g. health, by prayer then prayer is not answered in a natural, measurable way.

They also state, because they don't have theories on how certain aspects of prayer work that they shouldn't bother trying to work it out

...the results of the study, no matter what the outcome, would be greatly reduced in interpretability

I think, at the high level, the reasoning doesn't matter. If they can come up with a recreatable experiment that shows statistically any advantage of prayer, then they are well and truly on a fascinating path. They would have proved prayer works, they could then move to the next stage and try to fine tune their understanding as to what are the important aspects of prayer. Understanding this will improve the effectiveness of prayer.

In search for finer detail, they get defeatist again

...we propose that multiple prayers are more efficacious than a single prayer. Our colleague asks the obvious question: Why should it matter? What logic, reasoning, model, or theory could answer our colleague's question? Unless we answer theologically, we cannot answer at all

I don't agree with this. Experimental science does not have to know the why. It can simply indicate that one factor provides consistently favorable results than another. e.g. a single prayer or multiple prayers. This on its own would be remarkable and would indicate that people ought to pray frequently in mass rather than one offs. The reasoning on why, is secondary.

In argument against measuring the effectiveness of prayer to one deity over another

What have we found if we discover a significant difference between Christian and Jewish intercessors? Validation of Christ? (No, as it turns out. The futility of empirically validating the mystical has been clear to many, including the deeply religious. At the turn of the last century, William James,12 philosopher and psychologist, asserted that "we cannot distinguish natural from supernatural effects; nor among the latter know which are favors of God, and which are counterfeit operations of the demon.") What are the theological and social implications of a study pitting Jewish intercessors against Moslem intercessors? (Would anyone dare such a study? Would the National Institutes of Health fund it? Would any institutional review board approve it?)

So here on the one hand they say they can't distinguish natural from supernatural effects, but they are ignoring the ability of statistics to show an improved probability of an event. One would assume if a god intervenes based on prayer then the probability will improve.
They also state that the statistics might be falsified by intervention of demons. If demons can hear your prayers and act on them, this may counter the benefits of praying to a god. Maybe people out to play it safe and not pray!
They then suggest best not to try this experiment because it might upset some people, which is ridiculous, how else are facts discovered. Are science to avoid working things out because it might upset someone with false knowledge?

Anyway, it is a very long article, I haven't read it all, but from what I have read, I do find it interesting.
Ultimately I think, they are looking for excuses on why not to test for improved probability based on prayer. I am sure they are just happy praying and believing that prayer works.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

The main way that I conceive of prayer is communion with God, which results in one being "in tune" with God, which results in the best possible outcome. 

[MadBomr101]

I'll allow George Carlin on Praying to answer on my behalf.

[En_Route]

I apologize in advance if the subject has been done to death, but does prayer also seem pointless to the majority of atheists who post here?  I don't mean for yourselves, of course it is pointless to pray to a god that you are certain doesn't exist, I mean pointless even if you do believe in the Christian god?

If the Christian god is omnipotent and is truly the Alpha and Omega to his followers, it reasonably follows that he is omniscient.  If he is omniscient then he is prescient.  If he is prescient he knows every single event that will happen unto the end of time. 

Absolute knowledge is what I mean, knowledge of events that is completely and wholly immutable.  Not a particle can change its position in the universe that the Christian god did not already foresee.

So will prayer change a future that is already written and known down to the smallest immutable event by the omnipotent Christian god?

I know this subject is interwoven with the illusion of free will, but I was hoping to address just prayer.  May not be possible to separate the two though.

The counter to this may be that the Christian god has already foreseen that he is going to grant these prayers.

[OldGit]

Another strand of prayer is the 'Praise Him' bit.  Why should this omnipotent being give a toss about being praised by a bunch of grubby, rebellious animals who do nasty sex things?  Seems to me he should be a bit above that.

I was in my charity's HQ this morning, interacting with a seriously mentally handicapped young lady who doesn't understand too much of what's going on around her.  I was being companionable, trying to cheer her up and allay some of her constant nervousness.  She knows me, and I hope I brightened her morning somewhat.  I hope she likes me, because that is a prerequisite of my being effective, but would I be hurt if she didn't?  Do I need her good opinion for its own sake?  No.  Occasionally I do experience rejection from some of our people - does that hurt me, do I need their approval?  No.  Our relationship is above that.

[En_Route]

Another strand of prayer is the 'Praise Him' bit.  Why should this omnipotent being give a toss about being praised by a bunch of grubby, rebellious animals who do nasty sex things?  Seems to me he should be a bit above that.

I was in my charity's HQ this morning, interacting with a seriously mentally handicapped young lady who doesn't understand too much of what's going on around her.  I was being companionable, trying to cheer her up and allay some of her constant nervousness.  She knows me, and I hope I brightened her morning somewhat.  I hope she likes me, because that is a prerequisite of my being effective, but would I be hurt if she didn't?  Do I need her good opinion for its own sake?  No.  Occasionally I do experience rejection from some of our people - does that hurt me, do I need their approval?  No.  Our relationship is above that.

The sum of human happiness is not a zero- sum game; by caring for others we benefit both them and enrich ourselves. In the context of shrinking State provision , and I suspect the ideological agenda of the present incumbents, I think the vulnerable and marginalised are going to become ever more reliant on the efforts of people like yourself.

[Ali]

I can understand the point of prayer in regards to becoming a better person.  I know that my mom often prays for "strength" or "the grace to forgive" and things like that.  I don't know if she literally thinks that god won't give her strength to overcome an obstacle, but I think it's a way of trying to solidify a commitment to do better and be better.  I would liken it to how when I feel like I need to make a change, I'll often talk it over with my husband or my mom or one of my girlfriends.  They probably aren't literally going to interceed and make me follow up on my commitments, although they will offer me support when I need it.  But somehow saying it outloud to someone you care about and who cares about you sort of solidifies your commitment to yourself.  That's my reading on those kinds of prayers.

[Stevil]

Another strand of prayer is the 'Praise Him' bit.

I couldn't ever imagine telling my wife to praise and worship me. If she did, it would be a big turn off. I would be disappointed if my children worship and praise me. Loving someone means wanting that person to be happy, not wanting that person to worship me.

If the god is love then the god will not appreciate worship. Worship in my opinion represents failure with regards to love.
Yet another instance of the god that failed.

[En_Route]

Another strand of prayer is the 'Praise Him' bit.

I couldn't ever imagine telling my wife to praise and worship me. If she did, it would be a big turn off. I would be disappointed if my children worship and praise me. Loving someone means wanting that person to be happy, not wanting that person to worship me.

If the god is love then the god will not appreciate worship. Worship in my opinion represents failure with regards to love.
Yet another instance of the god that failed.

I never told my wife to worship me. It just happened naturally.

[Tank]

Another strand of prayer is the 'Praise Him' bit.

I couldn't ever imagine telling my wife to praise and worship me. If she did, it would be a big turn off. I would be disappointed if my children worship and praise me. Loving someone means wanting that person to be happy, not wanting that person to worship me.

If the god is love then the god will not appreciate worship. Worship in my opinion represents failure with regards to love.
Yet another instance of the god that failed.

I never told my wife to worship me. It just happened naturally.