You Lost One - Atheist Converts

[xSilverPhinx]

Though I think that if an atheist converts, it's way more likely that it would be something more similar to deism rather than theism, of course it's possible for a staunch atheist to become a theist. A person can change their paradigm through many different pathways which don't depend on rational thought.

Not everybody spends a good amount of time immunising themselves against weak theistic arguments on atheist forums or in social support groups. Weak arguments that even intelligent people fall for. You underestimate biases and human emotions.

[En_Route]

Though I think that if an atheist converts, it's way more likely that it would be something more similar to deism rather than theism, of course it's possible for a staunch atheist to become a theist. A person can change their paradigm through many different pathways which don't depend on rational thought.

Not everybody spends a good amount of time immunising themselves against weak theistic arguments on atheist forums or in social support groups. Weak arguments that even intelligent people fall for. You underestimate biases and human emotions.

Yes, give 'em a couple of weeks on HAF and that'll knock all the superstitious edges off 'em. Then again.

[Genericguy]

Though I think that if an atheist converts, it's way more likely that it would be something more similar to deism rather than theism.

I think it would depend on how the person was raised and also how much effort/thought they have put into their lack of belief. Childhood indoctrination can be incredibly powerful. In my case, it was a very long, slow, and gradual de-conversion process that lasted over 15 years. I cant help but think if a person was raised belonging to a specific religion, that the conversion would most likely be to that previous religion.

[Norfolk And Chance]

You are mentioning lots of people that are not real atheists there.

A real atheist is one that comes to the athiestic conclusion from rationality and skepticism, not because of peer pressure, indoctrination, rebellion etc

That's your personal definition which suits the purposes of your argument, which goes along the lines that anyone who is a "real" atheist is by definition somebody who cannot change their mind on atheism;

Yup.

ergo any atheist  who  does change their mind is not a " real " atheist" . Anyway despite the  fact that the emptiness and  circularity of your argument has been repeatedly pointed out to you, you are obviously still going to persist with it, so good luck to you.

Circular, of course. The god squad taught me well.

The point that could be  legitimately made is that atheists who have independently and rationally arrived at their position are unlikely to abandon their atheism, but there  are still no guarantees. Changes of circumstances, traumatic events,  maybe even decline in mental faculties (!) etc etc could cause somebody to switch to embrace irrational beliefs.

All examples are of people that weren't really atheists.

It is impossible for a real atheist to become a theist 

[En_Route]

You are mentioning lots of people that are not real atheists there.

A real atheist is one that comes to the athiestic conclusion from rationality and skepticism, not because of peer pressure, indoctrination, rebellion etc

That's your personal definition which suits the purposes of your argument, which goes along the lines that anyone who is a "real" atheist is by definition somebody who cannot change their mind on atheism;

Yup.

ergo any atheist  who  does change their mind is not a " real " atheist" . Anyway despite the  fact that the emptiness and  circularity of your argument has been repeatedly pointed out to you, you are obviously still going to persist with it, so good luck to you.

Circular, of course. The god squad taught me well.

The point that could be  legitimately made is that atheists who have independently and rationally arrived at their position are unlikely to abandon their atheism, but there  are still no guarantees. Changes of circumstances, traumatic events,  maybe even decline in mental faculties (!) etc etc could cause somebody to switch to embrace irrational beliefs.

All examples are of people that weren't really atheists.

It is impossible for a real atheist to become a theist 

Unless they are not a true Scotsman.

[xSilverPhinx]

Though I think that if an atheist converts, it's way more likely that it would be something more similar to deism rather than theism.

I think it would depend on how the person was raised and also how much effort/thought they have put into their lack of belief. Childhood indoctrination can be incredibly powerful. In my case, it was a very long, slow, and gradual de-conversion process that lasted over 15 years. I cant help but think if a person was raised belonging to a specific religion, that the conversion would most likely be to that previous religion.

I think not just the fact that child indoctrination can be powerful, but theistic and especially monotheistic religions are set up in such ways that make it easy for people to slip back into them. The way they play on fears, existential insecurities and incentives Not to mention especially the promised social support of a whole community of believers...IMO turning back to theism is easier for the more emotionally driven.

I was assuming that the more rationally based people might be more likely to accept a sort of deism over theism, especially if they've been seeing the kinds of arguments theists make for a long time and debunking them.

Sort of analogous to people who were creationists, then better educate themselves are less likely to become creationists, but rather theistic 'evolutionists' if they ever convert back to some religion.

Though I think that if an atheist converts, it's way more likely that it would be something more similar to deism rather than theism, of course it's possible for a staunch atheist to become a theist. A person can change their paradigm through many different pathways which don't depend on rational thought.

Not everybody spends a good amount of time immunising themselves against weak theistic arguments on atheist forums or in social support groups. Weak arguments that even intelligent people fall for. You underestimate biases and human emotions.

Yes, give 'em a couple of weeks on HAF and that'll knock all the superstitious edges off 'em. Then again.

A couple of weeks? That would be faster than anything I've ever seen before, and quite a feat if it ever happened...

Probably for someone who has already been through a prolonged period of questioning their beliefs and are looking for reasons why people don't believe to see if they are sound.

But anyways skepticism is more demanding intellectually and energetically. People who already rely on faith are not looking for evidence that will make them question their beliefs. It simply doesn't matter to them, being on HAF or a similar site. Would take a lot more than 2 weeks...and that's if the person's defense mechanisms don't kick in.

[En_Route]

Yes, give 'em a couple of weeks on HAF and that'll knock all the superstitious edges off 'em. Then again.

A couple of weeks? That would be faster than anything I've ever seen before, and quite a feat if it ever happened...

Probably for someone who has already been through a prolonged period of questioning their beliefs and are looking for reasons why people don't believe to see if they are sound.

But anyways skepticism is more demanding intellectually and energetically. People who already rely on faith are not looking for evidence that will make them question their beliefs. It simply doesn't matter to them, being on HAF or a similar site. Would take a lot more than 2 weeks...and that's if the person's defense mechanisms don't kick in.

I was talking ,and even then with a degree of flippancy, of people who might be fortified in their atheism by entering within these portals. Very few people look for disconfirming evidence for their beliefs, being far more likely to reinterpret or  cherrypick the evidence to fit their beliefs in True Scotsman fashion.

[xSilverPhinx]

Yes, give 'em a couple of weeks on HAF and that'll knock all the superstitious edges off 'em. Then again.

A couple of weeks? That would be faster than anything I've ever seen before, and quite a feat if it ever happened...

Probably for someone who has already been through a prolonged period of questioning their beliefs and are looking for reasons why people don't believe to see if they are sound.

But anyways skepticism is more demanding intellectually and energetically. People who already rely on faith are not looking for evidence that will make them question their beliefs. It simply doesn't matter to them, being on HAF or a similar site. Would take a lot more than 2 weeks...and that's if the person's defense mechanisms don't kick in.

I was talking ,and even then with a degree of flippancy, of people who might be fortified in their atheism by entering within these portals. Very few people look for disconfirming evidence for their beliefs, being far more likely to reinterpret or  cherrypick the evidence to fit their beliefs in True Scotsman fashion.

Ok, I thought you were talking about theists and not people who already didn't believe in gods.

I see it a bit differently, people go for the like-minded and, especially with the long time and frequent posters here, online social interactions rather than having endless discussions on atheism and religions.

I didn't know there was actually a True Scotsatheist standard in the first place. ???  Where's the kirk at?

[En_Route]

Yes, give 'em a couple of weeks on HAF and that'll knock all the superstitious edges off 'em. Then again.

A couple of weeks? That would be faster than anything I've ever seen before, and quite a feat if it ever happened...

Probably for someone who has already been through a prolonged period of questioning their beliefs and are looking for reasons why people don't believe to see if they are sound.

But anyways skepticism is more demanding intellectually and energetically. People who already rely on faith are not looking for evidence that will make them question their beliefs. It simply doesn't matter to them, being on HAF or a similar site. Would take a lot more than 2 weeks...and that's if the person's defense mechanisms don't kick in.

I was talking ,and even then with a degree of flippancy, of people who might be fortified in their atheism by entering within these portals. Very few people look for disconfirming evidence for their beliefs, being far more likely to reinterpret or  cherrypick the evidence to fit their beliefs in True Scotsman fashion.

Ok, I thought you were talking about theists and not people who already didn't believe in gods.

I see it a bit differently, people go for the like-minded and, especially with the long time and frequent posters here, online social interactions rather than having endless discussions on atheism and religions.

I didn't know there was actually a True Scotsatheist standard in the first place. ???  Where's the kirk at?

I have enjoyed quite a few of the more serious exchanges here and naturally there are plenty of lighthearted interludes, the highlight for me still being Ali's polychromatic unmentionables.

[Amicale]

It's entirely possible to go from atheism to theism. It happens all the time. People have emotions. Things happen. Life changing events occur. We can't ever discount what great emotion, loneliness, need for community and stress can do to an otherwise skeptical, rational person. I think it's far more likely that someone would go back to the religion they were raised in, or some variation of it, if they're an atheist. It's probably less likely that someone who is an atheist and has been so for their entire lives would convert to theism, but such conversions do happen. I have a few friends who were atheists for years, but they converted to more 'liberal' religions, like Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, etc and now consider themselves theists.

I suppose it depends what priority you place on rationality, critical thought, evidence, etc. Maybe those things aren't as important to some atheists as their emotional lives are*. In that case, when something jars them emotionally, I can see some of them turning to spirituality, simply because they're looking for comfort and peace in their lives. Let's face it, secular emotional support groups don't exist in large numbers. Some atheists might feel alone. I can see people like that 'giving in' and seeking some kind of faith.

*This wasn't a dig at people who are emotional. I tend to be, myself. Some people just give this a higher preference in their lives. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that.

[Genericguy]

OK, I'll rephrase it - it is impossible for any real atheist, ie one that is not making it up, to become a theist.

Atheists are atheists because they have skeptical minds and value evidence. The atheism stems from not being presented with credible evidence for god.

Therefore how could an atheist become a theist? No evidence = no theism. Should an "atheist" suddenly decide that the "evidence" for god is suddenly credible, then they were obviously looking for a reason to believe and were not really atheists in the first place IMO.

I take a dim view of conversion stories.

Not all atheists have skeptical minds and value evidence. My wife, for example is an atheist, but does not think logically, "value evidence", or have a "sceptical mind". I'm not suggesting that she is not smart, but that she is more emotionally driven (as amicale suggested some atheists might be). Growing up, her family simply did not talk about religion or atheism. I think she doesn't believe in god simply because she was raised not even knowing about god.

I wonder how important having a skeptical mind and valuing evidence really is. I think life experiences and chance might play a bigger role than logical thinking. Imagine cloning a logical thinking atheist and placing thousands of them, as babies, in random locations, with random families, throughout the world. How many of them would find their way back to atheism? According to Wikipedia, only 11% of the people in the world are atheists. I wonder, what percent of our clones would become atheists?