This is a sobering article about the ongoing opioid epidemic (http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/23/health/opioid-overdose-library-narcan/index.html) here in the US...some of the numbers are staggering with overdoses from heroin and other opioids now killing more than 30,000 people a year. The opioid epidemic has been called the worst drug crisis in American history, with death rates now rivaling those of AIDS during the 1990s. In fact drug overdoses themselves now kill more people in the US each year than car accidents, back in 2014 29,230 people died in car accidents, while 47,055 died from a drug overdose.
It's definitely only going to get worse, especially under the current administration health care cuts and the GOP and Christian Rights objection to police or even librarians having access to Narcan kits.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvU0tJ9E.jpg&hash=acbb88dac4ea2dd36b54ca827b1a6c609277ac7d)
And in states where weed has been legalized, opioid addictions and deaths have dropped significantly.
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 06:53:16 PM
And in states where weed has been legalized, opioid addictions and deaths have dropped significantly.
Thst certsinly seems to be the case fir kegal use of opioids and marijuana in states where medical use of the latter allowed. That seens to make sense if both accidental and deliberate opioid overdoses have bern considered. I wonder if anyone criss-rekated this with varuation in deaths of chronic pain sufferers due to other reasons, including suicide.
http://drugabuse.com/legalizing-marijuana-decreases-fatal-opiate-overdoses/
Most references at the moment cite those figures only ftom the states thst have legalised medical use, did not find cases of legalised recreational use of pot versus illegal recreational use of oipoids for as far as I looked.
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 06:53:16 PM
And in states where weed has been legalized, opioid addictions and deaths have dropped significantly.
Thst certsinly seems to be the case fir kegal use of opioids and marijuana in states where medical use of the latter allowed. That seens to make sense if both accidental and deliberate opioid overdoses have bern considered. I wonder if anyone criss-rekated this with varuation in deaths of chronic pain sufferers due to other reasons, including suicide.
http://drugabuse.com/legalizing-marijuana-decreases-fatal-opiate-overdoses/
Most references at the moment cite those figures only ftom the states thst have legalised medical use, did not find cases of legalised recreational use of pot for as far as I looked.
A problem with this, is that we need to give studies that answer something longer term like that, some more time.
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 07:50:52 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 07:48:03 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 06:53:16 PM
And in states where weed has been legalized, opioid addictions and deaths have dropped significantly.
Thst certsinly seems to be the case fir kegal use of opioids and marijuana in states where medical use of the latter allowed. That seens to make sense if both accidental and deliberate opioid overdoses have bern considered. I wonder if anyone criss-rekated this with varuation in deaths of chronic pain sufferers due to other reasons, including suicide.
http://drugabuse.com/legalizing-marijuana-decreases-fatal-opiate-overdoses/
Most references at the moment cite those figures only ftom the states thst have legalised medical use, did not find cases of legalised recreational use of pot for as far as I looked.
A problem with this, is that we need to give studies that answer something longer term like that, some more time.
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Not arguing against you, Davin, anything that reduces drug overdose deaths is good - but the possibility that legalised pot msy cause long term problems, from it acting as a "gateway drug" (and I have seen something of the argument on that) to chronic health problems from smoking the stuff - tars etc that could still be a carcinogenic factor, must be put into the equation. A study of whatever scientific, non-biased data on this would be interesting to see. Is it still too early to tell yet? I wonder how many regular Dutch users have suffered which conditions that could be linked to their habit? Maybe conditions similar to low to moderate tobacco users?
The oral/dietary use of marijuana as a medication is another matter.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Davin:
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Um....because that would make sense. And the powers that be will have none of that. (https://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Gagged.png)
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 07:50:52 PM
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Not arguing against you, Davin, anything that reduces drug overdose deaths is good - but the possibility that legalised pot msy cause long term problems, from it acting as a "gateway drug"[...]
The bottom line is, weed is mostly harmless. It's less harmless than sugar. It's less harmless than beef. It's less harmless than alcohol and way less harmless than tobacco. It's less harmless than most things we allow people to consume. There is no good reason to ban it from public consumption.
Quote from: No one on June 23, 2017, 08:16:44 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Davin:
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Um....because that would make sense. And the powers that be will have none of that. (https://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/Gagged.png)
It does generate a lot of income for those private prisons and is a competitor to alcohol and tobacco, all of which have some deep pockets and a lot of
bribers I mean lobbyists.
It doesn't help that the current US Attorney General is a fucking 'reefer madness'/stomp on the necks of swarthy people ideologue (http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/39943-why-jeff-sessions-is-threatening-to-crack-down-on-marijuana).
QuoteAttorney General Jeff Sessions told a gathering of law enforcement officials in Richmond, Virginia last week that legalizing marijuana would not make the United States "a better place," and he is "astonished" by the suggestion that cannabis could be used to combat the nation's "heroin crisis." Two days later, New Mexico -- which has suffered from by high rates of opiate-related deaths for years -- moved to do just that.
On Friday, New Mexico's legislature approved a bill that would make patients diagnosed with opiate disorders eligible for the state's medical marijuana program. The idea already has the blessing of the state's Medical Advisory Board, and if approved by the governor, New Mexico would become the first state to specifically to put opiate disorders on its list of conditions that can be treated with cannabis products.
A growing field of research suggests that medical cannabis can be used for opiate replacement therapy and as a safer substitute for prescription painkillers, resulting in dramatic drops in dependency, overdose deaths and hospitalizations. In some parts of the country, patients with opiate disorders are already being treated with cannabis products. Last year, researchers echoed findings in earlier studies and determined that the number of prescriptions filled by Medicare dropped significantly in states with medical marijuana programs.
The findings, along with New Mexico's innovative legislation, are cause for excitement in the worlds of medicine and drug reform as the US confronts an opiate overdose epidemic. But for ultra-conservatives like Sessions, de-stigmatizing marijuana -- and suggesting that it could help solve drug-related problems instead of create them -- is an affront to the longstanding tradition of demonizing drugs and drug users in the name of the war on drugs. This decades-long war has cost over $1 trillion and greatly expanded the power of law enforcement at the expense of marginalized people, and Sessions seems reluctant to give that power up now that he is the nation's top cop.
In Richmond, Sessions acknowledged that his beliefs about drugs may be "unfashionable," but that doesn't matter because lives are at stake. His prepared remarks were posted online before the event, and he reportedly veered off script, skipping a line declaring marijuana use to be "only slightly less awful" than heroin after catching some flack on Twitter. The prepared speech is still available on the Justice Department's website.
"Sessions is basically saying [that] legalizing marijuana will increase our rates opiate deaths -- in fact, it's the reverse," said Emily Kaltenbach, a reform strategist for the Drug Policy Alliance in New Mexico. "He's not recognizing that, in fact, marijuana is an exit drug, not a gateway drug."
Sessions, who called for a return to anti-drug programs like Nancy Reagan's failed "Just Say No" campaign of the 1980s and '90s, is apparently nostalgic for the "reefer madness" of yesteryear. Marijuana is far less addictive than opiates, and it does not cause debilitating physical withdrawals like those suffered by people with opiate use disorders. In 2015, 33,000 people nationwide died of opiate an overdose, while the number of marijuana overdose deaths stayed at a steady zero. The medical marijuana industry now offers an array of treatments, including smokeless medicines and low-THC products that cause minimal intoxication.
This isn't the first time the nation's new attorney general has seemed out of touch when it comes to drugs. Drug policy reformers fiercely opposed Sessions' confirmation, citing his career-long history of favoring mass incarceration over drug treatment and recovery. Most recently, he helped block bipartisan sentencing reform in the Senate, which many advocates say would be an important step toward scaling back the war on drugs and its brutal impact on communities of color.
Critics say Sessions' harsh policies fell hardest on Black folks when he served as attorney general of Alabama, and he has a history of making racist statements. For example, Sessions once remarked that he thought the Klu Klux Klan was "OK until I found out that they smoked pot."
[Continues . . . (http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/39943-why-jeff-sessions-is-threatening-to-crack-down-on-marijuana)]
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 08:27:35 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 07:50:52 PM
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Not arguing against you, Davin, anything that reduces drug overdose deaths is good - but the possibility that legalised pot msy cause long term problems, from it acting as a "gateway drug"[...]
The bottom line is, weed is mostly harmless. It's less harmless than sugar. It's less harmless than beef. It's less harmless than alcohol and way less harmless than tobacco. It's less harmless than most things we allow people to consume. There is no good reason to ban it from public consumption.
If it is
less harmless than all those things you quoted then, surely, it is
more harmful?
Yes, lots of things have health hazards attached and should be used or consumed sensibly, I eat very little red neat now and have even reduced my meat intake in general. But, as omnivores evolved for a varied diet, needing complex compounds from all food groups, "adequate intake" is a good rule.
However we did not evolve to make use of compounds that are possibly part of a plants defence mechanism, compounds designed to damage the eater. We will have evolved a degree of tolerance to these, even a taste for some. Certainly the taste for the psycho-active effects of some! A neighbour has smoked pot for years, but not tobacco. He now suffers from COPD.
Less harmful but still harmfull, useful as a medication for those who standard painkillers are not suffiecient and opioids a social or medical problem - but that can be a boring pill.
If hemp pills were available here and I was told they would relieve my various age related pains, or even my heart condition, I would sign up for the pills tomorrow. But I would never smoke the stuff!
Info here (https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana) on health, physical and mental, problems from marijuana.
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 09:02:40 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 08:27:35 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 08:13:34 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 07:50:52 PM
But since weed is mostly harmless, and there appears to be a connection to opioid addiction reduction, then why not give it a go?
Not arguing against you, Davin, anything that reduces drug overdose deaths is good - but the possibility that legalised pot msy cause long term problems, from it acting as a "gateway drug"[...]
The bottom line is, weed is mostly harmless. It's less harmless than sugar. It's less harmless than beef. It's less harmless than alcohol and way less harmless than tobacco. It's less harmless than most things we allow people to consume. There is no good reason to ban it from public consumption.
If it is less harmless than all those things you quoted then, surely, it is more harmful
lol wut?
Quote from: GloucesterYes, lots of things have heakth hazards and should be used or consumed sebsibly[...]
Everything actually.
Quote from: GloucesterHowever we did not evolve to make use of compounds[...]
Species do not evolve "to" anything. There are plenty of compounds that are mostly harmless even though we didn't have any evolutionary selective pressure from using or not using them. Like aspirin, aspirin is also mostly harmless.
Quote from: GloucesterLess harmful but still harmfull, useful as a medication for those who standard painkillers are not suffiecient and opioids a social or medical problem - but that can be a boring pill.
I'm having trouble parsing this sentence.
Quote from: GloucesterIf hemp pills were available here and I was told they would relieve my various age related pains, or even my heart condition, i would sign up for the pills tomorrow. But I would never smoje the stuff!
That's great! But what do your personal choices have to do with supporting the restriction of other peoples personal choices?
Quote from: GloucesterInfo here (https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana) on health, physical and mental, problems from marijuana.
Anything specific to this discussion? I'm not going to go read several pages of information I already know to try to weed out the point you're trying to make.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Davin:
Anything specific to this discussion? I'm not going to go read several pages of information I already know to try to weed out the point you're trying to make.
Clever! (https://web.stardock.net/images/smiles/themes/digicons/w00t.png)
"Less harmless than...", in my Engish, could be written as, "not as harmless as..." this seemed to be equivalent to, "more harmful than.." to me.
Anyone else care to offer an opinion on this?
OK on the point on evolution, but nsinly semsntucs.
I was attempting to nsje thebpoint that I am not anti-drug. I am, however, concerned about those who consume enough of sufficient psycho-active compounds, esoecially for recreational purposes, to do themselves damage, from either those compounds soecufically of the by-products of the method of their use.
This rdminds me of the devste on this matter in college, the difference between the users and non-users in approach. The users being the defensive and therefore the more aggressive side.
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
"Less harmless than...", in my Engish, could be written as, "not as harmless as..." this seemed to be equivalent to, "more harmful than.." to me.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Quote from: GloucesterI was attempting to nsje thebpoint that I am not anti-drug. I am, however, concerned about those who consume enough of sufficient psycho-active compounds, esoecially for recreational purposes, to do themselves damage, from either those compounds soecufically of the by-products of the method of their use.
Is that why you want to make alcohol illegal? I mean, I could understand your point if you made some kind of line. As far as all the illegal substances go, weed causes the least harm. Weed also causes less harm than legal drugs available without a prescription. Which is why there is no good reason to keep it illegal.
Be concerned about other people all you want, I don't care about that. What I care about it when you support making decisions for other people. Which I'm not necessarily against, but if you're going to do that, then you need better reasons.
Quote from: GloucesterThis rdminds me of the devste on this matter in college, the difference between the users and non-users in approach. The users being the defensive and therefore the more aggressive side.
I don't know about that, I'm quite aggressive about legalizing marijuana, but I don't use it.
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 09:53:18 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
"Less harmless than...", in my Engish, could be written as, "not as harmless as..." this seemed to be equivalent to, "more harmful than.." to me.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Try:
"(Marijuana) is less safe than (sugar)" = "(marihuana) is not as safe as (sugar) = "(marijuana) is more dangerous than (sugar)."
When did I say I wanted to make alcohol illegal? I enjoyed a glass of wine, without a twinge to my conscience, this evening.
You are becoming personal in your arguments, Davin, rather than attacking mine with evidence to support yours. Let's just agree to differ, fifty odd years of discussion and debate inform me that if two people hold strong opposing views it is usually a waste of time and effort arguing the toss.
I think weed, refer, marijuana should be legal. When something is restricted, it just makes people want it more. This is seen in the prohibition of alcohol and in the measures Australia takes to drive people away from cigarettes.
However, that doesn't make any of these things safe to use. Mental illness does come from smoking weed. That's how I ended up in the mental hospital. But if it's going to make people smoke it less by making it legal, let's do this.
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: Davin on June 23, 2017, 09:53:18 PM
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 09:30:26 PM
"Less harmless than...", in my Engish, could be written as, "not as harmless as..." this seemed to be equivalent to, "more harmful than.." to me.
That doesn't make any sense to me.
Try:
"(Marijuana) is less safe than (sugar)" = "(marihuana) is not as safe as (sugar) = "(marijuana) is more dangerous than (sugar)."
That doesn't make sense to me. Why would you translate it like that?
Quote from: GloucesterWhen did I say I wanted to make alcohol illegal? I enjoyed a glass of wine, without a twinge to my conscience, this evening.
You didn't say it directly, I was attempting to point to the inconsistency in your logic when you said:
Quote from: Gloucester on June 23, 2017, 09:30:26 PMI am, however, concerned about those who consume enough of sufficient psycho-active compounds, esoecially for recreational purposes, to do themselves damage, from either those compounds soecufically of the by-products of the method of their use.
Since it has been proven that alcohol is more damaging than marijuana in this regard, you will have to hold inconsistent double standards to oppose the safer option without opposing the more dangerous option.
Quote from: GloucesterYou are becoming personal in your arguments, Davin[...]
That is bullshit, I have not directly attacked you in any way. Even this is a direct response to your statement.
Quote from: Gloucester[...]rather than attacking mine with evidence to support yours.
What claim have I made that you think is not supported with evidence? I will provide it if there is a point, I had just assumed that if you're against something, then you would be well versed in it.
Quote from: GloucesterLet's just agree to differ, fifty odd years of discussion and debate inform me that if two people hold strong opposing views it is usually a waste of time and effort arguing the toss.
I don't have a problem if your opinion differs from mine, but I also don't have a problem voicing it either. Also, I find this kind of sentiment rather pointless. I am more than willing to correct my view points if presented with a rational argument supported by evidence.
Quote from: Arturo on June 23, 2017, 11:08:28 PM
However, that doesn't make any of these things safe to use. Mental illness does come from smoking weed. That's how I ended up in the mental hospital. But if it's going to make people smoke it less by making it legal, let's do this.
Don't conflate underage usage with proper adult usage. There are a lot of things that fuck with brain development. That's why I agree with age restrictions.
I didn't say anything about underage. I was an adult when I started smoking weed.
Something to think about:
https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/article/a3z98b/big-pharma-didnt-cause-the-opioid-crisis-most-pain-patients-dont-get-addicted
Boys! Enough! :foottap:
Why don't we all just smoke a nice blunt, drink some nice red wine, and talk about peace and love? :levitate:
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
Peace and humanity can not coexist, mags.
Quote from: No one on June 24, 2017, 11:01:27 PM
Peace and humanity can not coexist, mags.
Not in
your realm, my friend. :smileshake:
:grin:
Hooray Mags is back. :dance: :frolic: :shooty:
I don't like blunts. :nu-uh:
Fine with red wine, and could do a number or a good bowl followed by a cigar. :smilenod:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)no one:
Peace and humanity can not coexist, mags.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)mags:
Not in your realm, my friend.
Your positive outlook on the dreadful human species is nothing short of extraordinary. However, madam butterfly, the fact remains there will always be those who think their way is right, and will kill to prove it.
The problem with weed is that gives the munchies. I'll bet that addiction to Cheetos is higher where it is legal. It leads to being an overweight couch potato, dude. But we are already a fat nation, so what the heck.
Quote from: No one on June 24, 2017, 11:30:36 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)no one:
Peace and humanity can not coexist, mags.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)mags:
Not in your realm, my friend.
Your positive outlook on the dreadful human species is nothing short of extraordinary. However, madam butterfly, the fact remains there will always be those who think their way is right, and will kill to prove it.
Maybe
those people need to chill and smoke some weed. :notsure:
Quote from: Icarus on June 24, 2017, 11:23:11 PM
Hooray Mags is back. :dance: :frolic: :shooty:
:hug:
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 24, 2017, 11:33:39 PM
The problem with weed is that gives the munchies. I'll bet that addiction to Cheetos is higher where it is legal. It leads to being an overweight couch potato, dude. But we are already a fat nation, so what the heck.
Weed doesn't always give me the munchies. :notsure:
Quote from: Magdalena on June 25, 2017, 12:24:45 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 24, 2017, 11:33:39 PM
The problem with weed is that gives the munchies. I'll bet that addiction to Cheetos is higher where it is legal. It leads to being an overweight couch potato, dude. But we are already a fat nation, so what the heck.
Weed doesn't always give me the munchies. :notsure:
The key word there is "always". Does it EVER give you the munchies?
I've never tried weed but I do like Cheetos.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on June 25, 2017, 07:14:35 PM
I've never tried weed but I do like Cheetos.
Then stay away from weed or you will be an addict. ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 25, 2017, 10:45:26 PM
Quote from: Claireliontamer on June 25, 2017, 07:14:35 PM
I've never tried weed but I do like Cheetos.
Then stay away from weed or you will be an addict. ;)
Chocolate has a similar effect in me.
And cheese.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 25, 2017, 07:02:26 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on June 25, 2017, 12:24:45 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 24, 2017, 11:33:39 PM
The problem with weed is that gives the munchies. I'll bet that addiction to Cheetos is higher where it is legal. It leads to being an overweight couch potato, dude. But we are already a fat nation, so what the heck.
Weed doesn't always give me the munchies. :notsure:
The key word there is "always". Does it EVER give you the munchies?
Sometimes, it does, but I can control it. Let's just say that the munchies is not a problem, never has been, and I doubt it will ever be. ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on June 25, 2017, 10:45:26 PM
Quote from: Claireliontamer on June 25, 2017, 07:14:35 PM
I've never tried weed but I do like Cheetos.
Then stay away from weed or you will be an addict. ;)
Yeah,
Claireliontamer Be careful! ... :worried:
:panic: :haironfire: :chairhide: :run!:
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F490%2F477%2F335.jpg&hash=9ed84542f36c9e7ed938d93b192662cf376f59ff)
:snicker:
I think maybe they misinterpreted "stoned" to death.
Quote from: No one on June 26, 2017, 07:00:02 AM
I think maybe they misinterpreted "stoned" to death.
No one, you always come up with such creative comments...do
you smoke weed? :snicker:
I bet it would be fun to smoke with you.
I have my moments.
Quote from: No one on June 26, 2017, 07:00:02 AM
I think maybe they misinterpreted "stoned" to death.
:postoday:
Quote from: Arturo on June 24, 2017, 04:06:24 AM
I didn't say anything about underage. I was an adult when I started smoking weed.
What was the timeline and the details then? This would be a very rare case, and therefor interesting.
Don't forget brains don't reach maturity until about age 25.
Quote from: Claireliontamer on June 26, 2017, 06:31:50 PM
Don't forget brains don't reach maturity until about age 25.
And sometimes not even then...............