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General => Current Events => Topic started by: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2019, 08:30:38 PM

Title: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 22, 2019, 08:30:38 PM
QuoteNobel Prize-winning scientist James Watson, who helped discover the structure of DNA, was stripped of several honorary titles last week after his recent comments linking race and intelligence to genetics.

Speaking on a TV program which aired earlier this month, Watson reiterated his position that genes underlie racial differences on IQ tests.

...

Continues: http://time.com/5501811/james-watson-loses-honors-race-comments/ (http://time.com/5501811/james-watson-loses-honors-race-comments/)

How can someone so smart be so dumb?
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Tank on January 22, 2019, 08:38:35 PM
I agree.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: No one on January 22, 2019, 08:52:41 PM
The human brain is like a car with a stick, not everyone knows how to use it.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Sandra Craft on January 22, 2019, 11:07:49 PM
He's been making those comments for a while, I wonder what took them so long?
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 12:20:08 AM

At the risk of generating some heat, I am inclined to believe that demonstrated intelligence is closely aligned with ones societal and familial environment.  Not DNA.

 
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Tank on January 23, 2019, 07:44:19 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 12:20:08 AM

At the risk of generating some heat, I am inclined to believe that demonstrated intelligence is closely aligned with ones societal and familial environment.  Not DNA.


I'm of the opinion that it is a blend of nature and nurture.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Bad Penny II on January 23, 2019, 09:31:54 AM
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2019, 07:44:19 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 12:20:08 AM

At the risk of generating some heat, I am inclined to believe that demonstrated intelligence is closely aligned with ones societal and familial environment.  Not DNA.


I'm of the opinion that it is a blend of nature and nurture.

That seems incontrovertible (thanks Roger for that big word).
Einstein born as a Kalahari Bushman is going to be clever due his DNA, probably add a trick or two to Bushman craft.
For our Einstein the culture he was born into applied leverage to his genius and....
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 23, 2019, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2019, 07:44:19 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 12:20:08 AM

At the risk of generating some heat, I am inclined to believe that demonstrated intelligence is closely aligned with ones societal and familial environment.  Not DNA.


I'm of the opinion that it is a blend of nature and nurture.

Agree.  Identical twins raised in radically disparate environments are going to show differences in intelligence.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.   

Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Recusant on January 24, 2019, 12:17:56 AM
The Cold Spring Harbor statement can be found here (https://www.cshl.edu/statement-by-cold-spring-harbor-laboratory-addressing-remarks-by-dr-james-d-watson-in-american-masters-decoding-watson/). Basically they say that the opinions he expressed on the television show amounted to a reversal of his earlier retraction of the same opinions, and this prompted their response.

Years ago I had a long discussion with somebody who felt that Watson was being unfairly punished for what the person claimed were essentially truthful statements. When I produced evidence that there isn't any substantial basis for Watson's claims, I got "refutations" from J. Phillipe Rushton (https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jean-philippe-rushton) and others of his ilk, mostly associated with the Pioneer Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund). Ah, memories.  :snicker1:
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: jumbojak on January 24, 2019, 02:30:12 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.

From what I've read on the subject that seems to be the case. There was an interesting article describing the rise in IQ scores corresponding with better nutrition in the US. I don't remember where I read it though.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.

The same person raised in an environment of abuse will have greater capacity if raised in an environment of love. Nurture matters.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Tank on January 25, 2019, 06:32:49 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.

The same person raised in an environment of abuse will have greater capacity if raised in an environment of love. Nurture matters.

My wife is currently researching and writing on Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs). These can be things like poverty, abuse, poor or no education, parental loss and/or divorce etc. There is a correlation and apparent causation, of psychological issues later in life. Nurture is very important in development.   
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: SidewalkCynic on January 25, 2019, 08:16:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2019, 06:32:49 AMThese can be things like poverty, abuse, poor or no education, parental loss and/or divorce etc. There is a correlation and apparent causation, of psychological issues later in life. Nurture is very important in development.

Nobody is going to deny this to be true.

The problem is defining what is the ideal situation for raising a child (divorced/single parents are easily offended if not considered ideal), and then any siblings; and then, installing the proper education - indoctrination. Then we can define all of the possible deviations from the ideal, and then the correlating adjustments to ensure the proper indoctrination of the education that the adversely effected children need.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: SidewalkCynic on January 25, 2019, 08:51:15 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 23, 2019, 07:44:19 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 12:20:08 AM
At the risk of generating some heat, I am inclined to believe that demonstrated intelligence is closely aligned with ones societal and familial environment.  Not DNA.
I'm of the opinion that it is a blend of nature and nurture.

Raising good, smart children is very difficult - it is not easy, and it is not a matter of having plenty of money, luxury appliances, and various other resources. As we approach perfect community/society, deviation from perfect parenting misses the target relatively more (adversely). In the less sophisticated eras of the past, parenting was not as difficult, because there were less aspects of technology (things to do) to consider. My parents were very close to ideal, but not perfect, and I consider myself to have been adversely effected, because I was slightly mislead, because my parents did not know any better - they were not perfect. I needed perfect parents, because I was a perfectly secular child ready for a perfect indoctrination of valid information.

Okay, then let's suppose what might be the effects on the intelligence of children that are indoctrinated by their parents, and their parents' friends, and their friends' parents, that they are persecuted and oppressed people, because of their color (or religion/atheism); rather than the possibility that they have been adversely effected by substance abuse, and/or survivors of child abuse or irrational indoctrination themselves? How about the hypocrisy of the use of the magic word in the black culture - is it possible that that might have an adverse effect on the people's ability to reason other subjects?

Pretty good chance there is a cycle going on in the ghettos. I know, I've been to homeless shelters as a client. I have sat in the waiting rooms for food stamps. I have toured through several ghetto projects in New York City - I have seen it. I have never lived in affluent neighborhoods with perfect neighbors with money and luxury.

So, if black people are not genetically deficient intelligence, but are adversely effected because of the various other factors, and they continue to grieve for adjustments from white people, then white people are their guardians that have to figure out a solution for them - and black people are going to be offended when they understand that they could not generate the solution.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 26, 2019, 03:16:58 PM
Quote from: Recusant on January 24, 2019, 12:17:56 AM
The Cold Spring Harbor statement can be found here (https://www.cshl.edu/statement-by-cold-spring-harbor-laboratory-addressing-remarks-by-dr-james-d-watson-in-american-masters-decoding-watson/). Basically they say that the opinions he expressed on the television show amounted to a reversal of his earlier retraction of the same opinions, and this prompted their response.

Years ago I had a long discussion with somebody who felt that Watson was being unfairly punished for what the person claimed were essentially truthful statements. When I produced evidence that there isn't any substantial basis for Watson's claims, I got "refutations" from J. Phillipe Rushton (https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/jean-philippe-rushton) and others of his ilk, mostly associated with the Pioneer Fund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Fund). Ah, memories.  :snicker1:

Rushton is a joke.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2019, 09:09:09 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2019, 06:32:49 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.

The same person raised in an environment of abuse will have greater capacity if raised in an environment of love. Nurture matters.

My wife is currently researching and writing on Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs). These can be things like poverty, abuse, poor or no education, parental loss and/or divorce etc. There is a correlation and apparent causation, of psychological issues later in life. Nurture is very important in development.

That along with early life stress are subjects I find fascinating. My end of course undergrad project was to do with the effect of trauma in adolescence and the evolution of the pathological traumatic memory in adulthood (article in progress!). 
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: Tank on January 27, 2019, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2019, 09:09:09 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2019, 06:32:49 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.

The same person raised in an environment of abuse will have greater capacity if raised in an environment of love. Nurture matters.

My wife is currently researching and writing on Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs). These can be things like poverty, abuse, poor or no education, parental loss and/or divorce etc. There is a correlation and apparent causation, of psychological issues later in life. Nurture is very important in development.

That along with early life stress are subjects I find fascinating. My end of course undergrad project was to do with the effect of trauma in adolescence and the evolution of the pathological traumatic memory in adulthood (article in progress!).

I read this to my wife she was most interested.
Title: Re: Nobel Laureate James Watson Loses Honorary Titles Over Race Comments
Post by: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2019, 09:44:04 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 27, 2019, 09:16:08 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 27, 2019, 09:09:09 PM
Quote from: Tank on January 25, 2019, 06:32:49 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 25, 2019, 02:35:44 AM
Quote from: Icarus on January 23, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
Ecurb, perhaps not a difference in capacity but a difference in motivation because of the difference in cultural, economic, or environmental factors.

The same person raised in an environment of abuse will have greater capacity if raised in an environment of love. Nurture matters.

My wife is currently researching and writing on Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs). These can be things like poverty, abuse, poor or no education, parental loss and/or divorce etc. There is a correlation and apparent causation, of psychological issues later in life. Nurture is very important in development.

That along with early life stress are subjects I find fascinating. My end of course undergrad project was to do with the effect of trauma in adolescence and the evolution of the pathological traumatic memory in adulthood (article in progress!).

I read this to my wife she was most interested.

Cool! :grin: Basically my results suggest adolescent males who acquire a traumatic memory generalise that memory to neutral/safe contexts way quicker than is the case when adult males undergo the same stressful event. In other words, 'safe' cues will trigger memories acquired in aversive environments.

Results with females are...eh...inconclusive.  ::)

Memory generalisation is adaptive, as it allows animals to respond to events that are similar to others the animal has experienced, but overgeneralisation is an underlying symptom of anxiety disorders such as PTSD. It makes sense that younger animals will generalise memories sooner as some of the brain stuctures supporting the later-stage memory are immature (such as the prefrontal cortex). In even younger animals the hippocampus is also immature, which would accelerate the generalisation of memories even more because the hippocampus helps keep memories context-specific. 

I'm hoping by the end of the year the paper will be published. :smilenod: