Happy Atheist Forum

what do you people think of the arab-israeli conflict, both the present hostilities, and historically.

To 'set out my stall' from the outset, I am generally on the side of the Israelis, obviously because historically and biblically, Israel has been regarded by bible believers as a key player in world affairs.  I must admit, though, that I am a little bit suspicious of the neo-con support emanating from America.  That makes me wary.    I don't agree with the Jewish religion, as you may probably know, but I believe that Israel has a key part to play in these times, and is currently in the centre of a conflict that could engulf us all.  

Are atheists also against Jews, since they represent the basis of the Judeo-Christian religion?

Again, which bits are you being serious about?

Huxley, as you may or may not know, I am being serious in all of my discussions (except the light-hearted ones) - you work out the difference.

Seriously, though, I am a Christian.  

On an atheist forum.

Odd?  Yes.

you work it out.

By the way, I corrected my earlier mistake (twice) of crediting iplaw with YOUR postings.

I'm against Israel not because they are Jewish but because they violate the Geneva Convention. The irony is that a nation founded because of one of the most horrible war crimes of history would be commiting to so many.

Actually I got into it with another Atheist on another forum because I didn't like Israel.

I like to stay rather neutral, but I must say that I kinda do side with the Palestinians.

How would you like it if, out of the blue, your homeowners association decided to take the best pieces of your land put some political refugees that you've never seen before on there, permanently?  I don't think you'd like it any more than the Palestinians would the Jews.

Exactly, not to mention the Jews that were put on Palestine were never there before. Their ancestors left long ago. What they should have done is made Israel out of a part of Germany since Germany is the country that killed so many Jews. THat would have made more sense, to me.

Quote from: "Big Mac"What they should have done is made Israel out of a part of Germany since Germany is the country that killed so many Jews. THat would have made more sense, to me.

Somehow that reminds me of Godley and Cream's "An Englishman in New York" lyrics: "Disturbing facts about Nazi splinter groups seen on the news. They're picketing synagogues and claiming that Hitler was King of the Jews"

Eh?! I'm just saying Nazi Germany killed jews, it would make sense to make the former Nazi Germany give up some of its land to make Israel.

What in the hell are you two talking about?  The UN forced the situation in 1948 not the Israelies, ont to mention the Great Arab Revolt in 1936-39 that was a systematic effort to eliminate the Jews.  As far as the Geneva Convention.  An agreement like that only works if both side of the conflict are willing to abide by it.  Arab countries almost unanimously ignore the validity of the Geneva Convention.

Yeah but that doesn't give Israel the right to violate it even worse. There are tons of Arabs who are arrested for merely protesting (not all of them are violent) and Israel has opened fire on them and arrested many who are expressing their (justifiable) anger towards a corrupt state. Maybe Israeli should give up and go back to Europe where those people came from.

Once again, I feel the UN proves the worthlessness like the group it succeeded: the League of Nations. Remember how good that one was at stopping WWII?

FYI.  The Palestenians causing the trouble now are hell bent on the destruction of Israel at all costs.  Syria, Iran, and Palestine have are all comitted to wiping Israel off the map, or as they like to say, "driving them into the sea."  

I don't remember Israel ever calling for the elimination of arab countries at all.  In fact in the 90's they agreed to every demand that Arafat imposed and it still wasn't enough.

QuoteYeah but that doesn't give Israel the right to violate it even worse.

Quoteanger towards a corrupt state

You're gonna have to back up these assertions.

QuoteEh?! I'm just saying Nazi Germany killed jews, it would make sense to make the former Nazi Germany give up some of its land to make Israel.

Why was it wrong for Germans to systematically kills jews but it's justifiable for arabs?

Well good for them. Israel is a waste of time and money in my opinion. We funnel so much into it to keep it afloat and still it's a stagnate country.

We Americans should go back to isolation. It was working pretty dandy before I don't see why it won't work so well now.


Because Jews are invading their terriotory. Germany they were not really doing much besides being usurers and jewelers and accountants like usual. But in Palestine they are terrorists and thugs sanctioned by the UN, another corrupt and disgusting group. I say good for the Freedom Fighters against occupation.

Obviously your opinion is irrational and founded on a lack of prudent historical study.

QuoteWe Americans should go back to isolation. It was working pretty dandy before I don't see why it won't work so well now.

Huh?  We tried to stay neutral and isolated once, and remember what that go us?  Oh, yeah, that damned Hitler character.  Would the world be a fun place now if we would have adopted an isolationist stance and let Hitler get the bomb.  Sounds like fun to me!!!

QuoteBecause Jews are invading their terriotory. Germany they were not really doing much besides being usurers and jewelers and accountants like usual. But in Palestine they are terrorists and thugs sanctioned by the UN, another corrupt and disgusting group. I say good for the Freedom Fighters against occupation.

I think you just left the planet.

Well if other countries had fought like they should have, Hitler would have been stopped. Just like if the UK hadn't appeased Hitler, maybe he would have been stopped. It's not the US fault because Europeans are pussies when it comes to fighting a war (with the exception of Germany and a few Eastern Europe countries). Besides, Hitler would have never come to power had the League of Nations not imposed such strict and horrible sanctions on Post-Great War Germany like they did. We even condemned it and said we should try to forgive and forget the horrendous war. Once again, does a group of nations listen to reason? NOPE. WE were cleaning up THEIR mess.

QuoteWe funnel so much into it to keep it afloat and still it's a stagnate country

The only free standing democratic governments in the Near East stagnate...sounds about right.

I have news for you.  If Israel wanted to wipe out the middle east today they could make it happen.  The fact that they aren't giving the rest of the arab world the sh@t hammer right now is a mystery to me.

Quote from: "iplaw"

QuoteBecause Jews are invading their terriotory. Germany they were not really doing much besides being usurers and jewelers and accountants like usual. But in Palestine they are terrorists and thugs sanctioned by the UN, another corrupt and disgusting group. I say good for the Freedom Fighters against occupation.

I think you just left the planet.

And I think you haven't left your head out of your ass. The propaganda put out regarding Israel is pathetic. The Occupational Forces are portrayed as these wonderful people just trying to live and the Arabs are monsterous desert apes that are coming from every corner. I say the hell with Israel and go Palestine Freedom Fighters!

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. They are fighting Israeli occupation, good for them.

I agree with you that Europe's reaction was a joke, but letting Hitler occupy Europe was a better alternative?

Quote from: "iplaw"

QuoteWe funnel so much into it to keep it afloat and still it's a stagnate country

The only free standing democratic governments in the Near East stagnate...sounds about right.

I have news for you.  If Israel wanted to wipe out the middle east today they could make it happen.  The fact that they aren't giving the rest of the arab world the sh@t hammer right now is a mystery to me.

Yeah, well I say bring it on. I'd like to see them do that. Then get their shit owned as every Arab country marches there and whips their Jewish asses to the Red Sea where this time it won't part.

Um... the Mediterranean Sea is to Israel's west.

Israel doesn't even border the Red Sea...

Quote from: "iplaw"I agree with you that Europe's reaction was a joke, but letting Hitler occupy Europe was a better alternative?

No, Europe didn't do much. France rolled over (though I give credit to the French Resistance, they fought when their government contracted Vaginitus and surrendered), UK was all by itself and quite a few countries were neutral, though they didn't mind taking Nazi gold.

They should have gotten it right from the start regarding Germany, then Hitler would have no platform for a Depressed Germany to follow. 9 million Jews and others would be alive today, er maybe not TODAY but not died horrifically.

Quote from: "Aullios"Um... the Mediterranean Sea is to Israel's west.

Israel doesn't even border the Red Sea...

I know that, I mean march them to the Red Sea and tell them to get Moses to part it.

QuoteYeah, well I say bring it on. I'd like to see them do that. Then get their shit owned as every Arab country marches there and whips their Jewish asses to the Red Sea where this time it won't part.

Okay this is where we end the conversation.  If you are even too blind to see that Israel has the ability to wreck that entire area then there is nothing left for us to discuss.  A superior Israeli army going to war with soviet era technology arab countries would be like shooting fish in a barrell.  Either you are just wanting to argue for arguments sake or you are just wilfiully blind.

Yeah who gave them that technology? They sure as hell didn't develop it themselves. A Jew developing a weapon, that's funny.

We did and I'm proud of that and so are most of the sentient people in this country.  If arabs laid down their weapons today there would be peace.  If Israel did they would be exterminated as you wish for them to be.  You sound like Hitler yourself; you'd best reevaluate your position.  And as for your last comment...what a racist remark.

If arabs laid down their weapons they would be slaughtered by the Jews. That fairy tale of peace will only happen when Israel abdicates and gives back the land to the Palestinians. And go back to Europe from whence they came.

QuoteIf arabs laid down their weapons they would be slaughtered by the Jews.

Yeah those darn Jews do enjoy using unprovoked aggression against their neighbors...Jeez...point to one time for me please.

QuoteAnd go back to Europe from whence they came.

The Jews came from Europe...right...I forgot about that one...must have been in that other history book I forgot to read.

Well they came from europe when they were transplanted into Palestine. Like weeds they are multiplying and causing more problems. Time to get the ol' Black and Decker out and get rid of the problem.

How about when they bombed Iraq? Or how about when they rape and slaughter thousands of unarmed refugees? Yeah, poor little Israelis. So sad.

QuoteWell they came from europe when they were transplanted into Palestine.

Did one of your professors tell you this or did you make it up all on your own?

QuoteLike weeds they are multiplying and causing more problems. Time to get the ol' Black and Decker out and get rid of the problem.

Sieg Heil!  What a racist. :roll:

So they just magically appeared in Israel and the Jews were not living in Europe. Wow, I came to expect this from the Midwest but it's just amazing.

And calling me a racist because I don't like Israel and its proven history of violence. Nice Ad hominem going there, dickhead. Why don't you go buy some Zion war bonds for your beloved israelis.

QuoteSo they just magically appeared in Israel and the Jews were not living in Europe. Wow, I came to expect this from the Midwest but it's just amazing.

Either you are willfully ignorant or something worse.  I'll make it real simple for you so you don't get lost.  Jerusalem is the capital of the Israel.  Israelis are Jews.  Jews have inhabited Jerusalem since 3000 B.C.  Europe never entered the equation until the UN divided the area after the Great Arab Revolt.  The Jews didn't come from Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem)

P.S.  I think readers can decide for themselves who the racist is here; you child.

Whatever, foolish man. I wouldnt' say racist so much as a self-hating Jew perhaps? Eh, not really, I don't hate jews, I hate Israelis. I'd figure you could make a distinction. Unless I'm wrong and there aren't that many Jews in New York and Cali and various places in America, Mexico, Canada, Russia etc. etc.

Sorry, I'm a racist!





Dickweed.

So did the Jews come from Europe or not Socrates?

They came from Jewland where Jews are made en masse and shipped to various banks, Jewelry shops (you can't spell Jewelry without JEW), lending companies, and other places where money, movies, court cases, comedians, and bagels need to be made or carried out! DUH!

It's SO-CRATES! Dork!

natalie portman was born in Israel. No wonder she can't act.

Well...I just wasted the last 30 minutes of my life.  Thanks.

Quote from: "iplaw"Well...I just wasted the last 30 minutes of my life.  Thanks.

You could have stopped at any time, bub, but you didn't. I didn't put a gun to your head (though it was tempting at certain points) and make you continue your conversation. You kept coming back and claiming I am a racist. I am not a racist, and you don't know me. Hell I could be the next Ghandi (wait, he was a racist) for all you know.

In the immortal words of Phil Collins, "It's just a shame, that's all!!"

QuoteYou kept coming back and claiming I am a racist.

You're right I didn't need to.  You made the point on your own without my assistance.

Eh, whatever. I am not a racist. I may make jokes that are racial in nature but I did not say Jews are subhuman or bad. In fact I pointed out in the one before the last post that Jews contribute a lot to American society. Israel contributes only death and hatred. You still don't see a distinction.

So says David Duke.

Oh so I'm guilty by association of David Duke? It's really sad how low you are going. You know Hitler was a vegeterian, wanna pin all vegeterians together with Adolf Hitler? Or how about pro-life people? Or Gun Control advocates?

Riiiggghhtt...Again, people reading this can decide for themselves whether you're a racist or not purely based upon your comments.

Then why are you constantly bringing it up? I think you're insulting their intelligence here with the constant reminder. That or you're trying to appeal to the Holocaust to make me seem like a goose-stepping Nazi. WHy don't you shut up and let them decide?

Sounds good to me... BTW, you have major anger issues...maybe that's why you get bounced from other forums...

Possibly.

I would be advocate of medical marajuana for you; help you take the edge off.

Eh, weed isn't that great. It's the drug of the high-schooler. It's all about getting sloshed up with Alcohol like a man.

What's wrong with Anger? Anger is what moves the world. Anger shapes the nations and crushes those who are not strong or swift enough. Anger is good. I mean we wouldn't be here today if some angry WASPs didn't come from England and get all pissed off at peaceful Native Americans with their tobacco smoking and their hunter-gatherer style living.

I'm not biting anymore I have work to do.

Ah, I am no longer Pavlov....damn. Hahahahaa.

Tom62 -godley and cream?  I thought it was Sting who sang that song?

Bigmac, I see your point about Germany maybe providing land for Jewish settlers, but, as a bible believer, I adhere to the mind-set that Jews must settle in their historic homeland, which is Israel.  This is not just my own thinking, or personal opinion, as I believe you will see - this will happen - and has happened, and the Jews will prosper, but will be assaulted from all sides by unbelievers.  Israel, though, will be victorious.   Don't believe me?

Watch this space.

Quote from: "Big Mac"I'm against Israel not because they are Jewish but because they violate the Geneva Convention. The irony is that a nation founded because of one of the most horrible war crimes of history would be commiting to so many.

Actually I got into it with another Atheist on another forum because I didn't like Israel.

Bigmac, aren't we all guilty of contravening the Geneva convention - even America?

To be honest, as a person, it pains me terribly to see both palestinian and isreali children and civilians suffering.  I HATE war.  It brings only desctruction.  There are NO winners in my opinion..  But I truly think that there are powers at work today  to bring both israelis and arabs into a catastrophic war to destroy both sides, for their own selfish, and satanic agenda.   This is my post, it is here for the record.  As I said earlier - watch this space.

http://www.threeworldwars.com/ (http://www.threeworldwars.com/)

http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike.htm (http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike.htm)

Uh oh, onlyme's prophesizing.
And in the middle of a spitting cat-fight. This would be interesting if it were in person...

court, not sure I get your drift.  what do you mean?

I am not a prophet, not even a good Christian, but I believe bible prophecy, and I believe it will be proved right in the end.  

I love to debate in person.  As I said earlier, yes, I am a real person, as is yourself.  Please view my picture gallery.  I have looked at yours.  We are all only just people trying to make sense of this world, are we not?

Just because I have a daughter older than you, I don't look down on you.  You make points and arguments my daughter, 25, would be incapable of.  I commend you for that.  Is it wrong, though, for me to see you as I would my own daughter?  I am concerned only for your welfare.   Oh, I know, many people and regimes have said just the same.  I am just an ordinary man, though, trying to provide for his family as best I can.  If you take offense at this, please let me know and I will desist and try to keep things more formal in the future.

I'm not taking offense. I simply mean that BigM and iplaw were getting angry and you spouting smugness about what will happen would probably bring about some violence, if this were in person.
You are not concerned for my welfare, so don't say it. I understand you're a real person, believe me. I'm not that nice in person, either, so don't expect it on the internet either.
You believe in bible prophesies? Didn't Jesus tell his disciples they would see the second coming in their lifetimes? They're all dead, by the way.

court, to correct you on Jesus' sayings

He said that 'this generation will not pass away, till all things be fulfilled.  

The generation He was speaking about, was the rebuilding and re-establishment of Israel (the fig tree in bible prophecy).  He was basically saying that those people that witnessed the return of Israel in the endtimes (1948), would witness and experience all the foretold prophecies being fulfilled in their lifetimes.   This has yet to be confirmed or established.  As I said before, watch this space.  If I'm wrong, berate me.  If I'm not, please be adult enough to ackowledge that bible prophecy is right.  

Please at least await the outcome before posting a reply.   I respect you for that.

Quote from: "onlyme"court, to correct you on Jesus' sayings

He said that 'this generation will not pass away, till all things be fulfilled.  

The generation He was speaking about, was the rebuilding and re-establishment of Israel (the fig tree in bible prophecy).  He was basically saying that those people that witnessed the return of Israel in the endtimes (1948), would witness and experience all the foretold prophecies being fulfilled in their lifetimes.   This has yet to be confirmed or established.  As I said before, watch this space.  If I'm wrong, berate me.  If I'm not, please be adult enough to ackowledge that bible prophecy is right.  

Please at least await the outcome before posting a reply.   I respect you for that.

If I were to say "This generation", you would not be wrong to assume I mean the current generation in which we are living.  Why would Jesus, if he is God, say something so flagrantly misleading?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generation)

Generations don't last 2000 years by any definition.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html)

Yes, I know I'm being lazy. I'm working, what do you expect?

And, onlyme, I'm not going to be "adult" enough to put up with your smug, self-righteousness. Not today. Don't predict things when you have no earthly idea what will happen.

court, I'm not being smug

I'm just saying that the jury is still out on this thing. We are the final generation, at least wait til all be fulfilled (all of us) till we pass judgement

I'm not predicting things myself.  All I say is  let the bible speak for itself.  We will then all be able to pass judgement on whether the bible is right or wrong.  After all, this is the last chance, in my opinion, for the biblical truth to be revealed.  It will be revealed as truth, or falsehood.  Let history be the judge.

Is that not fair for all parties?

I can't stay far enough away from this snafu...

Ugh, onlyme, are you one of those crazies who thinks the end is nigh?
I highly doubt I will see any bible prophesies come true. So, no, I'm not going to wait. They're mystical crap.

court, I am one of those fundies who always think the end is nigh.

Yes, in a way.  For one thing, as St. Paul said, Christians have always had to live in the end times.

Personally, i think that we all live in the endtimes because, in a real sense, if we die tomorrow, it is the 'end of the world' for us, as far as 'we' are concerned.   We will never have another chance to partake in the world again, as we know it, so it is the end times for US.  It is the 'end of the world', whatever generation we live in.   Just my own observation.  It might be wrong.   But it is surely the 'end of the world' concerning 'us'

Onlyme,

You are a demented fuckwit.

Source: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006 ... alypti.php (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/rapture_rubbish_and_apocalypti.php)

aullios

thanks for that, pal

Why do the younger people on this board tend to resort to namecalling like fuckwit and dickweed and such?  onlyme and I may not see eye to eye on things but let's all grow up a little.

Aullios, you make me laugh. :lol:

Quote from: "iplaw"Why do the younger people on this board tend to resort to namecalling like fuckwit and dickweed and such?  onlyme and I may not see eye to eye on things but let's all grow up a little.

If you read my link, you could see that I meant it as a joke.   Have a sense of humor, perhaps?

Sorry.  A little trigger happy regarding this topic as I get tired of it from Big Mac.

I agree that Bigmac can come across as arrogant and offensive at first glance.   From my experience, though, he is only in it for a joke, though he has some valid points to make when he feels like it, which i respect.

Take is in your stride, that's what I say.  He's young, but he has a lot to say, much of it which is relevant.

Live and let live

iplaw, i agree with you

it seems that there is a general conspiracy against the Jews, who are seen as the scourge of civilization.

Although I don't agree with the suffering and death of both sides of this conflict, I do agree that the Jews have always been made the scapegoat in any world crisis.  

I am for the Jews.  I am for Israel.  This small country in the middle east is always at the forefront of world politics, a fact that the wider world in general will have to get used to, sooner of later.  I believe that this is for a reason.  I also believe that this reason will affect us all.

As God said, regarding Israel, "I will bless them that bless you, and I will curse them that curse you."

Take it or leave it.  That's what God said.  That is what I believe.  Prove me right, or prove me wrong.  But wait til the final scene has been played out before passing judgement, in my opinion.   It's not over yet.

Quote from: "iplaw"Sorry.  A little trigger happy regarding this topic as I get tired of it from Big Mac.

Hey I still love ya pal, though the feeling may not be mutual. Yeah I'm a dick, but it's not really that bad of a lot in life. Better than being an asshole or a pussy (Team America....all the fucking way! FUCK YEAH!).

Quote from: "onlyme"I agree that Bigmac can come across as arrogant and offensive at first glance.   From my experience, though, he is only in it for a joke, though he has some valid points to make when he feels like it, which i respect.

Take is in your stride, that's what I say.  He's young, but he has a lot to say, much of it which is relevant.

Live and let live

Eh, you're alright, a little too religious for my tastes but not a bad fellow over all. At least you seem to try to be a good Christian. That I can respect, though I highly disagree with.

Bigmac, maybe I am a little too religious for your taste, but its just what I believe, that's all.  I'm willing to accept my limitations and consider that we (men) are not the be-all and end-all.

As for Christianity, I'm pretty sure that nobody can really disagree with or hate EVERY aspect of Christianity and what it stands for, even unbelievers, because, as I see it, Christians at least do try to live a better life in a lot of ways, maybe because they foresee a time when they will have to answer to God for their actions.  Even if you think they are deluded, they still at least try to aspire to better things.  That can't be all bad, surely.

Christianity is one of the most depressingly repressive religions out there. I feel sorry for people who try to be "good christians."

Quote from: "Court"Christianity is one of the most depressingly repressive religions out there. I feel sorry for people who try to be "good christians."

court, surely you have heard about how muslims treat their women and lawbreakers.  That is more repressive than Christianity.

As for repressive, well, to be honest, I think that in Christianity, 90 percent of the battle is within ourselves, that is, directed at controlling our own selfish desires rather than imposing such views on the world.  Removing the beam from our own eye before pointing out the speck in our brother's.   I'm not altogether sure that that is a bad thing.  It may be difficult for us to try and control our own selfish urges and desires, etc, but it's generally for the benefit of society at large.  This relates to other postings I've made, for example, single parent families, paedophilia, and other things.   All I'm saying is that sometimes we need to keep ourselves in check for the good of others, rather than being a 'me, me' generation which seeks only our own fulfilment, and to hell with the rest.  

This is what Christianity is about for me.

I guess it all depends on your point of view Court.  One person's protective eithical code is another's repression. And Big Mac I do agree I'd rather not be covered in sh@t either.  Muhammad Jihad Durk Allah.  Durka Durka

Ah but onlyme, Christianity was JUST LIKE that. In fact it predates Islam, and considering Islam used both Christianity and Judaism as its sources, one wonders where it got the idea about women's place in society. Durqa durqa durqa, allah allah, jihad!

Quote from: "onlyme"

Quote from: "Court"Christianity is one of the most depressingly repressive religions out there. I feel sorry for people who try to be "good christians."

court, surely you have heard about how muslims treat their women and lawbreakers.  That is more repressive than Christianity.

Hello, I said "one of." Islam's definitely up there, as well.
And Christianity is just as repressive.

Quote from: "onlyme"As for repressive, well, to be honest, I think that in Christianity, 90 percent of the battle is within ourselves, that is, directed at controlling our own selfish desires rather than imposing such views on the world.

First of all, christianity does try to impose its moral views on the world. Let's think about anti-abortionists protesting and harassing patients. Let's think about the religious right fighting tooth and nail to teach our children ignorance with abstinence-based sex ed programs. It's simply a lie to say that christians are not trying to impose their false morals on the world. A lie.
Secondly, that's the problem with christians! They are voluntary repressing themselves! It's ridiculous. Why would god give you natural human desires and then expect you to "battle" them all of the time?
And, so we're on the same page, please tell me exactly what you're talking about when you say "our selfish desires." Like, sex and lying? What sins to you place under that label?

Quote from: "onlyme"It may be difficult for us to try and control our own selfish urges and desires, etc, but it's generally for the benefit of society at large.  This relates to other postings I've made, for example, single parent families, paedophilia, and other things.

I simply am astounded that you group single parent families with pedophilia. Astounded.
Anyway, again, I would like for you to elaborate what you mean exactly by "selfish desires and urges." What things does christianity forbid that you want to do anyway (but, through a test of willpower, I guess, you overcome)? I'd like a list of what you think are the worse sins that battled within oneself.

Quote from: "onlyme"All I'm saying is that sometimes we need to keep ourselves in check for the good of others, rather than being a 'me, me' generation which seeks only our own fulfilment, and to hell with the rest.

I guess I can't really respond to this until I know exactly what sins you mean, because I'm not sure what you mean by "keeping ourselves in check"....

Man, we are derailing. Let me make a split topic about this...

Done: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ftopic135.html (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ftopic135.html)

As for Christians 'imposing' their moral values on the world - as I said, the main thrust of our lives should be centered on 'ourselves' rather than others.

I don't group paedophilia with single parent familes.  All I'm saying is that we sometimes have to abandon our own selfish attitudes, in favour of the greater good, whether it be paedophilia (selfish), or single parent families (abdicating our responsibilities to our childrend, in order to pursue our own selfish, pleasure-seeking agenda)

I know a lot of single parent familes do a great job.  My daughter is one of them.  I just wish that the father had made a commitment in the first place to his child, which he doesn't.  My grandson is a real person who misses his 'dad'.  What is wrong with people that they can get a girl pregnant, and then not care about either her, or the welfare of their child.  That is an abdication of responsibility in my opinion.  Or should we side with the 'father', and 'his' human rights, above the rights of the children that they produce.  I hope that common sense, and not selfishness, would prevail in this situation, among thinking people.

Onlyme, I started a new thread. I'll copy your post onto it, but go to the link for responses.

Quote from: "Big Mac"It's not the US fault because Europeans are pussies when it comes to fighting a war (with the exception of Germany and a few Eastern Europe countries).

Bigmac, as I recall, America was very, very reluctant to join the 2nd world war, and it took the assault on pearl harbour to eventually bring them into it.

We brits are a tea-supping, stiff upper lipped, cricket loving race.  we don't arouse easily, but when forced into a corner to defend our homeland, we will strike with devastating effect (ref. the battle of britain).  Ok, maybe I'm being over-dramatic here.

We are not pussies.

"Rule Britannia, Britannia rules the waves...."  and all that crap.

Ha ha ha

Without us and the Russians to help you guys, the Nazi's would have eventually Goose-stepped their kraut asses over the pond eventually and just hoisted up a Swastika over Buckingham Palace. Maybe if you guys hadn't been so appeasing to Hitler we Americans wouldn't even have to worry about the issue. The reason we were reluctant is because the last war you guys dragged us into before that was a rather stupid war that was inaptly named the Great War. A lot of Americans died helping the Allies in that one, we tried to learn from our mistakes.

So yes, you guys are pussies. You used to kick everyone's ass around but that time is through.

Oh yeah, Satan asked me to say this: "AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!! COMING AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHER-FUCKIN' DAY, YEAH, AMERICA....FUCK YEAH!!!"

Bigmac, bigmac

We Britons 'invented' you Americans, don't you know?   Without us, there never would have been an America.  You are our offspring.  You can't live without us.

Quote from: "Court"Onlyme, I started a new thread. I'll copy your post onto it, but go to the link for responses.

court, I don't know how to go to the link, there doesn't seem to be one here, unless I'm missing something.

Anyway, I digress. The point of my original posting was to bring to your attention that Israel, as a restored nation, is again at the centre of world politics, and surrounded on all sides by enemies, as prophecied in the bible. I believe also, as the bible says, that Israel, though attacked from every angle, will be victorious in the end, because God has sworn that He is fighting for them.  It's no use anyone opposing this view at the moment.  The end result will be the final judge.  

I believe that the Jews, though they rejected Christ, are indeed God's chosen people, because HE chose them.  They will fulfill His purpose.

Quote from: "onlyme"

Quote from: "Court"Onlyme, I started a new thread. I'll copy your post onto it, but go to the link for responses.

court, I don't know how to go to the link, there doesn't seem to be one here, unless I'm missing something.

Anyway, I digress. The point of my original posting was to bring to your attention that Israel, as a restored nation, is again at the centre of world politics, and surrounded on all sides by enemies, as prophecied in the bible. I believe also, as the bible says, that Israel, though attacked from every angle, will be victorious in the end, because God has sworn that He is fighting for them.  It's no use anyone opposing this view at the moment.  The end result will be the final judge.  

I believe that the Jews, though they rejected Christ, are indeed God's chosen people, because HE chose them.  They will fulfill His purpose.

I think she was talking about this thread (Christianity=Repressive?):  http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ftopic135.html (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/ftopic135.html)

Quote from: "onlyme"Bigmac, bigmac

We Britons 'invented' you Americans, don't you know?   Without us, there never would have been an America.  You are our offspring.  You can't live without us.

The circle is complete the student has become the teacher. Notice Vader, played by an American kicked Obi-Wan's ass, who was played by a Brit. Coincidence, I don't think so!

We might be your offspring but we just sent your collective asses to the retirement home! FUCK YEAH!

You think so, eh?

You've heard of gulf war II?  Well, on behalf of, and on the authority of my Prime Minister, (Poodle Blair?!?!), I hereby declare War of Independance II on the American people.  We will bring you back into line.

You needed and asked for our help in the war on terror.  You rely on our intelligence services and our military expertise.  The British soldier is renowned the world over as the best soldier in the world.

As I said before, you are our offspring.  Only an offspring.  You have a lot to learn.

When you come crawling back with your tail between your legs, we might just be able to agree on a compromise so as not to embarrass y'all.

hahahaah, We only need you guys to make us look semi-legit. Otherwise, you guys would be sucking our balls and licking our butts right now (Fuck yeah, America!!!).

British soldier was considered the best soldier.....about 160 years ago. When the world still had a huge argument about whether the sun revolved around us or not. And people were crying about Darwin and stuff. Just give up, you tea guzzling, Nazi appeasing, French touching, sissy boys, we Americans can own guns, how about that, huh? HUH?!

Maybe saddam hussain had a point at the start of the first gulf war when he said that americans were all just women, in dresses, .....or something like that.

"We Americans can own guns"?

Not for much longer, if current trends continue to be implemented.  You are slowly and systematically entering a state where you, too, will be disarmed, and all under your very noses.  You just fail to see it.

Your so-called freedom and liberties are being taken away.  But you are so smug and self confident that you are blind to it.

 All Hail Bush!   Ha ha ha!!

Don't you have to go to church and say you love a half-naked guy who is on big pieces of wood?

Bigmac, you are a total ****

But I must admit, I admire your wit.  I respect cleverness and sharpness like that.

Oh, I forgot, Bigmac, you're not even a real American, are you?  You're a mexican.    Did you sneak across the border?  In the back of a wagon load of fajitas, maybe?  May I see your papers, please?

What are you doing wandering around without a leash, anyway?

Fajitas are Tex-mex, retard.

But I suppose tit for tat. I made fun of your cult leader, you make fun of my skin color.

Quote from: "Big Mac"Ah but onlyme, Christianity was JUST LIKE that. In fact it predates Islam, and considering Islam used both Christianity and Judaism as its sources, one wonders where it got the idea about women's place in society. Durqa durqa durqa, allah allah, jihad!

Mujahedeen, Yasser Arafat, Islamic Jihad

I can speak Ay-rab-ic as well, you know

Yeah well how about this.

Martyr, Martyr, Jesus, Fred Phelps, Hell, Jack Chick

I speak christian now.

Quote from: "Big Mac"The circle is complete the student has become the teacher. Notice Vader, played by an American kicked Obi-Wan's ass, who was played by a Brit. Coincidence, I don't think so!

Ummm...not quite. David Prowse played Vader. Prowse is a Brit.

Voiced by the American James Earl Jones.

Quote from: "onlyme"I believe also, as the bible says, that Israel, though attacked from every angle, will be victorious in the end, because God has sworn that He is fighting for them.

Riiiight. It couldn't possibly be the billions of dollars that the US has dumped into their weapons systems....it has to be god.

Quote from: "onlyme"I believe that the Jews, though they rejected Christ, are indeed God's chosen people, because HE chose them.  They will fulfill His purpose.

This has got to be one of the most idiotic concepts of xianity. The very idea that a benevolent creator would create all of humanity and then pick some dirty desert nomads to be his favorites is ludicrous. The fact that he would choose a favorite ought to clue you into the fact that the books were written by the "favorites". Duh.

This thread is becoming more and more interesting. Sorry onlyme, but I fully agree with BigMac. The UK may have the best army in the world, but the USA is the only worldpower. They have the best material and with their superior numbers they could blow the UK away in no time.

The Palestinians have all rights to fight Israel. Israel is an artificial state that was grounded with the help of UN and by terrorist actions of the jews against the former occupier of that land namely the UK. The first thing what happened when Israel was founded was that many palestine villages and cities disappeared from the map. More than a million palestine people lost everything they've got. No wonder that the palestinians are still upset, especially since the Israelis treat them like dirt.

On the other hand the Arab world is also to blame about what happens in their part of the world. The Arab nations surrounding Israel could have given the Palestinians some land of their own. The Arab world will have to live with the fact that Israel is very likely to stay. If all parties involved truly want peace then they should stop all this violence and get the peace process going. Unfortunately there are too many radical people on both sides who don't want any peace.

Quote from: "MikeyV"

Quote from: "Big Mac"The circle is complete the student has become the teacher. Notice Vader, played by an American kicked Obi-Wan's ass, who was played by a Brit. Coincidence, I don't think so!

Ummm...not quite. David Prowse played Vader. Prowse is a Brit.

Voiced by the American James Earl Jones.

Jones is Vader. Prowse is just some big guy they picked.


I highly doubt the brits have a better Army than the US. Not to mention we also have the Marines, probably the best fighting force to ever walk the planet. Marines are scary people, brits are just scary carnival people.

You conveniently forget that Egypt and Syria annexed what was given to Palestine; not Israel.  Palestinian land, villiages and cities dissapeared because of Egypt and Syria.  Israel only gained control of that territory in Gaza and the West Bank after the war in 1948 when Israel was attacked by the alliance of arab nations INCLUDING PALESTINIANS when Israel declared independence.  

The dance that has been going on for the last 50 years or more has been Palestine trying to get back Gaza and the West Bank after they lost those areas when they attacked Israel in 1948.  You can't provoke war with someone, lose and then cry when you don't get your land back.

Israel conceded to Arafat giving into all demands in the 90's including recognition of a statehood for Palestine.  Arafat walked away from the table after being given every demand he stipulated to.  They don't want peace, they want the destruction of Israel.

The war would have never been provoked if those Israelis hadn't forced them to abdicate in the first place. And MikeyV is right, without the US funnelling money into Israel, it'd be consumed right now. God's People my brown ass.

What part of annexation by Egypt and Syria didn't you understand, Israel wasn't involved until Palestine, Syria, Iraq and other arab nations attacked them.  It's like Mexico bitching about losing Texas.  I don't see us giving back Mexico any time soon.  That's the price you pay when you lose a war, you lose your land.

Quote from: "onlyme"Bigmac, bigmac

We Britons 'invented' you Americans, don't you know?   Without us, there never would have been an America.  You are our offspring.  You can't live without us.

*Hysterical laughter*
We're all grown up now, onlyme. We can definitely live without you.
You're just bitter because you used to own half the world and now you're just a tiny, sad little island. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
(Please don't take me seriously, I'm just messing with you.)

Nevermind that last post I didn't see it was Big Mac he changed his avatar.

Quote from: "iplaw"What part of annexation by Egypt and Syria didn't you understand, Israel wasn't involved until Palestine, Syria, Iraq and other arab nations attacked them.  It's like Mexico bitching about losing Texas.  I don't see us giving back Mexico any time soon.  That's the price you pay when you lose a war, you lose your land.

No, Mexico lost Texas because a bunch of white people came over and decided they didn't like playing by Mexico's rules so they led a rebellion. So it was actually Americans who are to blame for that one also. They wanted their Manifest Destinty fulfilled.

Oh keep on ignoring me, that's what a real intellectual does, right?

very interesting discussion.  I agree with everyone of you on SOME points, and disagree on others, unfortunately, I'm not adept at this forum thing enough to include quotes from several different people.  I tried.

As regards why God would choose this 'dirty little nation' Israel, or whatever the post said, the whole point I think is that, as God said, He chooses the WEAK things to confound the strong, the foolish things to confound the wise.

And you who think America is the only superpower...Granted... but don't you think you can be humbled?  Many a 'mad world ruler' has had the same thoughts - I'm invincible ...(cue evil laughter. .  HA HA HA HA HA)

TOM62.....yes, the Arab nations could have given some land to israel.  And there ARE too many radicals who don't want peace.  I'm not in favour of war at any time, it's just that I accept the inevitable - that Israel WILL be victorious eventually in this battle for their place on earth (their original, God-given land)

God also says that He 'sets up rulers, and casts them down again'

I think 'men' are too smug, arrogant and self-important to realise this.  Todays superpower is tomorrows pile of rubble.  History itself teaches us this.

Who reads history?

Or do you think America is invincible?  Maybe you think it will reign for a thousand years?   (Hitler...'cough')

Just a few well placed 'dirty bombs' could reduce the American nation to anarchy.  Not to say I hope that happens.  I think America is a great nation and ally...maybe a little trigger happy and over confident in their own ability and supremacy.   Who know?  Time will tell.

Quote from: "onlyme"As regards why God would choose this 'dirty little nation' Israel, or whatever the post said, the whole point I think is that, as God said, He chooses the WEAK things to confound the strong, the foolish things to confound the wise.

I said "dirty desert nomads", but same same. The simple fact that you can't see the problem with god picking favorites speaks volumes towards your character. Do you have children? More than one? Did you pick one and say "You are my favorite". Did that child escape punishment? Did that child get the best food or the largest room? Do you tell that child every day that they are your favorite? I mean, think about it for a minute.

It makes a lie out of John 3:16 "God so loved the world...". Bullshit! God loves Israel, as he makes abundantly clear all throughout thebooks. Why anyone but a Jew would follow this dogmatic crap is beyond me.

Quotethat Israel WILL be victorious eventually in this battle for their place on earth (their original, God-given land)

Only if you believe thebooks. Of course a book written by the Jews would say this. Duh.

Quote from: "onlyme"Todays superpower is tomorrows pile of rubble.  

A fact supported by the collapse of the British Empire. (Okay, and the Roman Empire.)

Speaking of which, I was amazed the first time I saw a map of the British Empire at it's peak. They weren't kidding when they said the sun never sets, were they?

MikeyV:  but I'm not a Jew, or in favour of the Jewish religion, as I've said before, we are at odds with one another on a lot of points, but I humbly accept the inevitable, that God chooses the small, weak, insignificant members of society to humble the strong.  He is on the side of the underdog, in a way, which I totally approve of, and accept.

Court:  And the greeks, and the medo-persians...etc

And America??  Or, is America, by virtue of its present only superpower status, justified in thinking itself invincible?  I'm not saying you said that, but it is implied in some of the other posts.  

A little cautious humility is in order here, I think.

You know what I find hilarious, God doesn't mention the Native Americans. Quite a few people on the other half of the world and you would think God would mention them at some point. Not to mention God doesn't mention the Far East anywhere in his books. And no one is struck by the fact a Jewish religion would pit the Jewish people as favorites against the rest of humanity?

Quote from: "onlyme"And America??  Or, is America, by virtue of its present only superpower status, justified in thinking itself invincible?  I'm not saying you said that, but it is implied in some of the other posts.  

A little cautious humility is in order here, I think.

Meh, it's just fun to pretend we're invincible. Besides, what's the likelihood that America will collapse in my lifetime?

Quote from: "Big Mac"And no one is struck by the fact a Jewish religion would pit the Jewish people as favorites against the rest of humanity?

I always wondered that in Sunday school. Why are the only players in the Bible the self-proclaimed "favorites"? Why aren't there bible stories based in China or South America, as well? Did God not give a shit about the rest of the world?
Stupid Sunday school.

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "onlyme"And America??  Or, is America, by virtue of its present only superpower status, justified in thinking itself invincible?  I'm not saying you said that, but it is implied in some of the other posts.  

A little cautious humility is in order here, I think.

Meh, it's just fun to pretend we're invincible. Besides, what's the likelihood that America will collapse in my lifetime?

If america collapses I think a lot of other places will also collapse. People talk of China gaining strength but it's straining itself and it needs America as a competitor to keep on. Without us this new surge for China would have never been possible. I doubt America will collapse any time soon.

For one thing, the Jews didn't choose themselves.  They've suffered probably more as a race than anyone else, both during the holocaust, and in their 2000 year exile, etc.

God didn't also specifically mention Britain in the bible, as far as I know.  That doesn't bother me, though.

Court:  America now has so many enemies, the collapse of the US could happen at any time.   A great many people are actively seeking that, including, I think, your present government.

court, you said:

Secondly, that's the problem with christians! They are voluntary repressing themselves! It's ridiculous. Why would god give you natural human desires and then expect you to "battle" them all of the time?

Does this not also apply to those who espouse evolution?  Do you not see yourselves as having 'natural' desires, which are nevertheless harmful to other members of your mammal society?  Or do you agree with the 'survival of the fittest' in this respect also, and therefore should pursue your own agenda, and to hell with the rest, since they are weak?

This is not meant as an attack, I'm just trying to discern where you draw the line.  If morality is not imposed by religion, should it be imposed by a secular society, and if so, why?

Quote from: "onlyme"Do you not see yourselves as having 'natural' desires, which are nevertheless harmful to other members of your mammal society?

Can you name something that everyone naturally desires which harms society?  I can't think of anything.

I've never heard of a secular morality that teaches the repression of natural desires. Nor would I ever endorse such a morality.
How does "survival of the fittest" (and, it's not necessarily the "stronger" that survives, keep that in mind) have to do with repressing natural desires?
I do believe in an innate morality (probably a pretty basic and selfish one) and a social morality, which evolves and changes to fit the needs of the current society. Christian morality is simply an out-dated social morality...

Quote from: "onlyme"For one thing, the Jews didn't choose themselves. They've suffered probably more as a race than anyone else, both during the holocaust, and in their 2000 year exile, etc.

Hey, I didn't say they could predict the future. Nor did I say they haven't undergone persecution. I'm just saying that it's no coincidence that the inhabitants of the land from which the bible came are "god's chosen people."

Quote from: "onlyme"God didn't also specifically mention Britain in the bible, as far as I know. That doesn't bother me, though.

That's because the bible doesn't mention any place besides the ass-backward place from which it originated. It's not that it doesn't mention America that bothers me, but that it doesn't mention anywhere else but that relatively small part of the middle east. If god was real, that would not be the case.

Quote from: "laetusatheos"Can you name something that everyone naturally desires which harms society? I can't think of anything.

Honestly, neither can I.

I'm talking about, for example, paedophilia (natural desire???), or maybe the urge to take something that is not yours, such as your neighbours wife, or possessions.  If we are just mammals, then why shouldn't we behave just like mammals, say, for example, hyenas, who take the 'prey' from other, weaker members of the animal kingdom?

Is there any evidence that pedophilia is genetic? I thought that it was almost all environment-based, which would require you to come up with a different example.
As for stealing, that's where the selfish morality comes in. You don't want other people to steal your stuff or wife, so you don't do it to them. In fact, you all get together and create a tribe of some sort and a social contract (like a government) that agrees that no one will steal.
Not all mammals are equal. Hyenas don't have as developed a sense of reason and logic. However, do they steal from animals in their tribe? Probably not. I'll bet they steal from other packs, which humans do all the time, because different tribes are not going to be under the same social contract. Therefore, stealing from them will not be seen as "immoral."
This is less evident today because of the widened communication on this planet. The media and internet have created a sort of "global community," making it less acceptable to most people (especially those from developed countries) to "steal" from other countries or civilizations.

Quote from: "onlyme"I'm talking about, for example, paedophilia (natural desire???), or maybe the urge to take something that is not yours, such as your neighbours wife, or possessions.  If we are just mammals, then why shouldn't we behave just like mammals, say, for example, hyenas, who take the 'prey' from other, weaker members of the animal kingdom?

pedophilia is arguably a developmental problem and not a natural desire (ie, no one is born a pedophile)

humans, as a whole, generally care about the welfare of others.  It would be easier to argue that it is natural to not want to take from others, than it would be to argue that we are all inherently thieves.  Humans have empathy, hyenas don't.  I would say that stealing is a societal issue...not something that humans instinctively desire.  I know this isn't an in depth explaination...but I think it would require a thesis on human nature and society in order to explain it fully.

How on earth did this subject find it's way into the arab-israeli conflict forum?

maybe it has a teensy-weensy bit to do with me.  I'm sure sometimes I lack self-control and just launch off by replying to a point in a post and end up taking it somewhere completely different.

I'm a complicated person, aren't I?

Are you merely reflecting or ignoring the points Laetus and I just made?

QuoteIt would be easier to argue that it is natural to not want to take from others, than it would be to argue that we are all inherently thieves.

Are we inherently inclined to not take from others or are we taught not to?  If we were inherently "wired" not to steal then why is it most children have to be taught not to steal; not to take that toy away from the other child?

I think the idea of stealing has been abstracted to only encompass the obvious crimes.  Of course I inherently don't rob people or steal things from their homes, those are the biggies that are easy not to do.  But I do cut corners every once in a while, and act selfishly, which are just euphimisms for thievery.