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I can make you believe in thirty minutes.

Started by Hector Valdez, April 29, 2012, 09:03:18 PM

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Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism

Quote from: fester30 on April 30, 2012, 09:50:07 PM
What I hear the most in central Arkansas is "if you died right now do you know if you'd go to heaven?"  I just tell them that if there were a heaven and hell I'd be going to hell for sure.  They're usually surprised.  Then I talk to them about how, if you're born in po-dunk China where you never hear about Jesus, and if the only way to heaven is through Jesus, and if God is all-powerful, yet still allows those people to go to hell through no fault of their own, then he is a jerk, so I'll go to hell on principle rather than follow that jerk.  There's not much they can say about that, except something that makes God sound racist because we must be the chosen people, and those Muslims and others obviously aren't, since we're the only ones that get that privilege of hearing about Jesus.

Yeah, anyway.  fun.
WOW!! I used the same China argument on yahoo. once. The response was there are a lot more Chrisitans in China than you would think.  I said yeah they are called tourists.
"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." -Voltaire
"By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out". Richard Dawkins

DeterminedJuliet

#16
Quote from: Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism on April 30, 2012, 09:52:01 PM
Quote from: fester30 on April 30, 2012, 09:50:07 PM
What I hear the most in central Arkansas is "if you died right now do you know if you'd go to heaven?"  I just tell them that if there were a heaven and hell I'd be going to hell for sure.  They're usually surprised.  Then I talk to them about how, if you're born in po-dunk China where you never hear about Jesus, and if the only way to heaven is through Jesus, and if God is all-powerful, yet still allows those people to go to hell through no fault of their own, then he is a jerk, so I'll go to hell on principle rather than follow that jerk.  There's not much they can say about that, except something that makes God sound racist because we must be the chosen people, and those Muslims and others obviously aren't, since we're the only ones that get that privilege of hearing about Jesus.

Yeah, anyway.  fun.
WOW!! I used the same China argument on yahoo. once. The response was there are a lot more Chrisitans in China than you would think.  I said yeah they are called tourists.

And still says nothing about the vast number of people who AREN'T Christian  ::)
"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism on April 30, 2012, 09:52:01 PM
Quote from: fester30 on April 30, 2012, 09:50:07 PM
What I hear the most in central Arkansas is "if you died right now do you know if you'd go to heaven?"  I just tell them that if there were a heaven and hell I'd be going to hell for sure.  They're usually surprised.  Then I talk to them about how, if you're born in po-dunk China where you never hear about Jesus, and if the only way to heaven is through Jesus, and if God is all-powerful, yet still allows those people to go to hell through no fault of their own, then he is a jerk, so I'll go to hell on principle rather than follow that jerk.  There's not much they can say about that, except something that makes God sound racist because we must be the chosen people, and those Muslims and others obviously aren't, since we're the only ones that get that privilege of hearing about Jesus.

Yeah, anyway.  fun.
WOW!! I used the same China argument on yahoo. once. The response was there are a lot more Chrisitans in China than you would think.  I said yeah they are called tourists.

I have always thought of that argument in general. People in many countries speak many different languages. People are born  into different situations.

To actually believe someone is going to hell just cuz they havent heard of your pal jesus is  seriously absurd.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

The Black Jester

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 10:15:24 PM
Quote from: Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism on April 30, 2012, 09:52:01 PM
Quote from: fester30 on April 30, 2012, 09:50:07 PM
What I hear the most in central Arkansas is "if you died right now do you know if you'd go to heaven?"  I just tell them that if there were a heaven and hell I'd be going to hell for sure.  They're usually surprised.  Then I talk to them about how, if you're born in po-dunk China where you never hear about Jesus, and if the only way to heaven is through Jesus, and if God is all-powerful, yet still allows those people to go to hell through no fault of their own, then he is a jerk, so I'll go to hell on principle rather than follow that jerk.  There's not much they can say about that, except something that makes God sound racist because we must be the chosen people, and those Muslims and others obviously aren't, since we're the only ones that get that privilege of hearing about Jesus.

Yeah, anyway.  fun.
WOW!! I used the same China argument on yahoo. once. The response was there are a lot more Chrisitans in China than you would think.  I said yeah they are called tourists.

I have always thought of that argument in general. People in many countries speak many different languages. People are born  into different situations.

To actually believe someone is going to hell just cuz they havent heard of your pal jesus is  seriously absurd.

This is a ridiculous dogma.  So much so, that many Christians I have met have created a loophole in the dogma, with, as far as I'm aware, little actual Biblical justification, that says that such 'innocents' are exempt from damnation if they truly have not heard the 'good news' before they die.  Which only means, of course, that once you tell them the 'good news,' you are personally responsible for making their damnation possible. 
The Black Jester

"Religion is institutionalised superstition, science is institutionalised curiosity." - Tank

"Confederation of the dispossessed,
Fearing neither god nor master." - Killing Joke

http://theblackjester.wordpress.com

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: The Black Jester on April 30, 2012, 11:32:24 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 10:15:24 PM
To actually believe someone is going to hell just cuz they havent heard of your pal jesus is  seriously absurd.

This is a ridiculous dogma.  So much so, that many Christians I have met have created a loophole in the dogma, with, as far as I'm aware, little actual Biblical justification, that says that such 'innocents' are exempt from damnation if they truly have not heard the 'good news' before they die.  Which only means, of course, that once you tell them the 'good news,' you are personally responsible for making their damnation possible.

Heh...love those Christians...(sigh)

Sweetdeath

Pretty much! ^
Just goes to show how most christians are pompus assholes.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 11:50:13 PM
Pretty much! ^
Just goes to show how most christians are pompus assholes.

Mis-informed does not equal a pompus assholes...but it is your perogative to state so.

En_Route

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 11:50:13 PM
Pretty much! ^
Just goes to show how most christians are pompus assholes.

This strikes me as a false premise and a false conclusion
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

Amicale

I've been asked more than a few times in my life whether I believed in Jesus. And depending on where I was in my life, I either answered with 'yes' or 'no'. The last time I was asked, it was by a guy who I'd only known vaguely as being a former customer of mine. He came past my place, saw me doing yard work, and proceeded to tell me what a nice day it was, and how blessed we were to be enjoying it. I just smiled politely. Then he said "man, Jesus Christ gives us so much. I love him. Do you love him?"

This took me aback, because the last time I'd seen him in my old store, he hadn't ever made any religious references. I just politely said "Well, no. To love him, I'm sure you'd have to be convinced that he was alive, and that he was God. I don't happen to believe either of those things, but I'm glad you do." ... and I TRIED to get back to my yard work. He persisted though, citing all the ways he thought Jesus was God, and all the ways Jesus had helped him during his life. To anything he said, I just tried to respond with "oh, I'm glad for you" or something similar. I prettymuch just wanted him to get off my lawn and move along. It had been more than 20 minutes of this.

When he started bringing up the heaven and hell stuff, and asked if I knew where I was going when I died, I finally snapped just a bit, and said "Yes sir, I do." He got all excited, and asked where. So I told him "well, I want to be cremated, so I'll either be in urn, or sprinkled somewhere very nice." He got very, very quiet, said "Oh. Uh.... good for you..." and finally left.  :P

He was friendly enough, but came off as just a wee bit unbalanced. One of the types that tells you what a miserable, law-breaking wreck they'd be without Christ -- my reaction to those people is generally 'wow, they're better off believing what they do, then.'

I don't often run across those types here, but when I do, it's always a bit surreal. I guess I can't get my head around the whole proselytizing thing. Like I've said before in other threads, even when I was a Christian, I didn't have conversations like this with people. And I certainly never stepped onto their lawns and tried to engage them like that.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Amicale

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 11:50:13 PM
Pretty much! ^
Just goes to show how most christians are pompus assholes.

I don't personally believe most Christians are pompous assholes. Most mean well, and most seem to be decent folks who really think that their ideas will help you. Most sincerely believe what they say they believe. If anything, they can sometimes come off as appearing to be arrogant, due to how sure of themselves they seem. They may not even realize that's how they're being seen.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Sweetdeath

Maybe it's just me then, with my bad experiences and religious folks.

Usually when they bring up the beauty of the world and nature, and how blessed they are, etc.. in their diluted ways, i bring up human trafficking and other "great things" that happen every day, in which their lord lets occur.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 01, 2012, 12:29:09 AM
Maybe it's just me then, with my bad experiences and religious folks.

Usually when they bring up the beauty of the world and nature, and how blessed they are, etc.. in their diluted ways, i bring up human trafficking and other "great things" that happen every day, in which their lord lets occur.

If you want a killer (literally) argument, bring up viral diseases. Viruses are "designed" to infect specific animals, for instance, people viruses only infect people's cells. How could a loving god have created such a thing? And how could a powerful one allow it to happen?

No matter how hard they try, they still can't negate the fact that there are killing nano "machines" that infect specifically people, just as well as if they were made for just that purpose, as far as theistic evolution goes...
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


xSilverPhinx

#27
Quote from: Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism on April 30, 2012, 09:50:07 PM
WOW!! I used the same China argument on yahoo. once. The response was there are a lot more Chrisitans in China than you would think.  I said yeah they are called tourists.

What unsophistication on their part, as if the fact that there might be a few Christians in China would somehow make everything ok? Sweep the billion who have never heard of Jesus under the rug, they don't matter because there are a few million who have...
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Sweetdeath

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on May 01, 2012, 12:39:48 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on May 01, 2012, 12:29:09 AM
Maybe it's just me then, with my bad experiences and religious folks.

Usually when they bring up the beauty of the world and nature, and how blessed they are, etc.. in their diluted ways, i bring up human trafficking and other "great things" that happen every day, in which their lord lets occur.

If you want a killer (literally) argument, bring up viral diseases. Viruses are "designed" to infect specific animals, for instance, people viruses only infect people's cells. How could a loving god have created such a thing? And how could a powerful one allow it to happen?

No matter how hard they try, they still can't negate the fact that there are killing nano "machines" that infect specifically people, just as well as if they were made for just that purpose, as far as theistic evolution goes...

Ooooh yeah. Bringing biology into it always makes for fun.
Especialy when you account rare genetic disorders.


There is actually a heart breaking tale of a 10 month old girl with only a few months given to live because of her extreme genetic disorder. Her mum  is recording every event til her death. So sad...
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

The Black Jester

Quote from: En_Route on May 01, 2012, 12:10:12 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 30, 2012, 11:50:13 PM
Pretty much! ^
Just goes to show how most christians are pompus assholes.

This strikes me as a false premise and a false conclusion

Which is the false premise?
The Black Jester

"Religion is institutionalised superstition, science is institutionalised curiosity." - Tank

"Confederation of the dispossessed,
Fearing neither god nor master." - Killing Joke

http://theblackjester.wordpress.com