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Social Suicide

Started by musicality, April 24, 2012, 07:41:02 AM

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Sandra Craft

Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 12:50:42 AM
I've heard Christians phrase it this way, as an analogy for their beliefs about hell: "if you're my friend, and I see you standing on the train tracks saying you can't see any evidence a train's coming... and there's a train coming, what kind of friend would I be, if I didn't push you off those tracks kicking and screaming?"

I think we've seen that analogy turn up on these forums before, and I've heard it more than once in real life, and it's always a facepalm analogy for me. 

It breaks down because they can't see the train coming either, they just imagine that it is and are trying to push me off the tracks based on something in their head.  If they actually could see and/or hear the train coming, I'd be able to as well and would cheerfully get off the tracks on my own. 

It does make me wonder, is there any analogy supporting proselytizing that doesn't break down under its own illogic?
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Amicale

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 30, 2012, 12:23:27 AM
Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 12:50:42 AM
I've heard Christians phrase it this way, as an analogy for their beliefs about hell: "if you're my friend, and I see you standing on the train tracks saying you can't see any evidence a train's coming... and there's a train coming, what kind of friend would I be, if I didn't push you off those tracks kicking and screaming?"

I think we've seen that analogy turn up on these forums before, and I've heard it more than once in real life, and it's always a facepalm analogy for me. 

It breaks down because they can't see the train coming either, they just imagine that it is and are trying to push me off the tracks based on something in their head.  If they actually could see and/or hear the train coming, I'd be able to as well and would cheerfully get off the tracks on my own. 

It does make me wonder, is there any analogy supporting proselytizing that doesn't break down under its own illogic?


Very good point about them not seeing the train either. :) For those who use that analogy about the train, or something similar to it... I'll say this for them. They're probably sincere in their beliefs, they probably care about the people they're trying to "save", and they probably have their heart in the right place. For those reasons, I'm never angry if a friend makes an analogy like that. I try to put myself in their shoes. If I had that mentality and honestly believed what they did, then I'd probably try to share my ideas with others too, in the hopes that they wouldn't be "hit". I say probably, because I don't know for sure how I'd respond, really. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't proselytize. It was a personal thing, to me, and it didn't occur to me to go around trying to convert others.

I can't think of an analogy supporting proselytizing that doesn't break down. Good question. If any of the theists (or ex-theists) here have one, I'd be sincerely interested in hearing it, out of curiosity.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:04:58 AM
For those who use that analogy about the train, or something similar to it... I'll say this for them. They're probably sincere in their beliefs, they probably care about the people they're trying to "save", and they probably have their heart in the right place. For those reasons, I'm never angry if a friend makes an analogy like that.

I'm right there with you.  The ones that are glaring and screaming gospel are annoying, no question about it, but most of the others I find kind of sweet.  And, like their charging train god, my face palming is done entirely in my own head.  But I would like to hear an analogy that doesn't break down under the weight of its own illogic, or a reason for worshipping a god that doesn't rely on a hopeless attempt to prove the unprovable.  I've been promised this stuff for years, and out of pure curiousity I'd like to finally get an answer.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Amicale

I will admit to doing something. Or rather, admit to keeping my mouth shut on something.

I was with a friend and her son. Her son is 6. He was asking his mom all kinds of questions about where dogs, cats, butterflies, etc go when they die. She responded with "well honey, what do you think?" and he said "I think they go to animal heaven." and then a bit later, he said "I think nice people go to heaven too." She asked "why do you think that?" and in a wide-eyed, solemn-faced little boy response, he said "because I love them and I want them to be with me forever. I want you (myself) and you (his mom) to be with me forever! Don't you want that, mommy and (me)?"

I couldn't, for the life of me, say anything other than "yes, of course!" and she said the same. Neither of us believe in God, but... eh.

I said it because it's the truth. If I COULD have forever with my friends and family and those I love, I'd take it in a heartbeat. So it was absolutely true what I said. I can want and wish for something. What I of course didn't say to him was "but wanting it doesn't make it true". I'm not his parent, it wasn't my place, and I suspect in the future, he won't see the world in such a simple way -- "if I want it, it MUST exist".

When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:47:55 AM
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.

And then there's the less generous explanation -- they fear their own death to such an extent that only believing in a personal eternity, against all logic, will calm their fear.  I'll admit to being able to sympathize with that.  I don't know if I'd want to live forever (it would depend on the circumstances and conditions) but I wouldn't mind a greatly expanded life span myself.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 30, 2012, 01:56:53 AM
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:47:55 AM
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.

And then there's the less generous explanation -- they fear their own death to such an extent that only believing in a personal eternity, against all logic, will calm their fear.  I'll admit to being able to sympathize with that.  I don't know if I'd want to live forever (it would depend on the circumstances and conditions) but I wouldn't mind a greatly expanded life span myself.

I don't know...thinking short-term, yes everlasting life does look tempting. Thinking long-term, definitely not.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Sweetdeath

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 30, 2012, 02:16:39 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on April 30, 2012, 01:56:53 AM
Quote from: Amicale on April 30, 2012, 01:47:55 AM
When it comes down to it, though, I think that's honestly the apologetic that a LOT of Christians use, whether they realize it or not. They want their beliefs to be true and they want their loved ones with them always so badly that to them, it's true.

And then there's the less generous explanation -- they fear their own death to such an extent that only believing in a personal eternity, against all logic, will calm their fear.  I'll admit to being able to sympathize with that.  I don't know if I'd want to live forever (it would depend on the circumstances and conditions) but I wouldn't mind a greatly expanded life span myself.

I don't know...thinking short-term, yes everlasting life does look tempting. Thinking long-term, definitely not.


I'd rather be a vampire.
Not really, lol.

But realistically, these people are kind of sad and pathetic. I agree it comes out of fear; but to apply it so furiously to a child kind of pisses me off.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.