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Social Suicide

Started by musicality, April 24, 2012, 07:41:02 AM

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Tank

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not?  I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation.  :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Same here. We can only hope that other places put indoctrination behind them.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.



I don't believe in personal responsibility but even if I did, I cannot see how somebody who is incapable of realising the consequences
of their actions  could be  regarded as culpable.

Though I do believe in personal responsibility (things would fall apart IMO if we didn't take it as a given), as for the rest of what you said, I feel the same way. There's a intentional difference between spreading the cold without knowing what you're doing and spreading it with the intent to cause disease, such as in biological warfare. Intention makes the difference.

To be the devil's advocate for a moment here: the religious may believe that they're causing harm by not preaching and a proselytising ad nauseum, so I don't see those types as having evil intents. It's just sad that they're so afraid to fight what is more important (IMO) but rather stick to their beliefs like crutches. A reversal in priorities. ???   
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Amicale

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 24, 2012, 10:55:19 PM

To be the devil's advocate for a moment here: the religious may believe that they're causing harm by not preaching and a proselytising ad nauseum, so I don't see those types as having evil intents. It's just sad that they're so afraid to fight what is more important (IMO) but rather stick to their beliefs like crutches. A reversal in priorities. ???   

I absolutely agree with this. I've heard Christians phrase it this way, as an analogy for their beliefs about hell: "if you're my friend, and I see you standing on the train tracks saying you can't see any evidence a train's coming... and there's a train coming, what kind of friend would I be, if I didn't push you off those tracks kicking and screaming?"

These people do NOT have evil intentions. They aren't intending to hurt you by preaching or prosyletizing, they honestly, sincerely believe that if they don't give you their message, you're doomed. These are the same types of folks who break down in tears and tell you "I love you, I can't stand the thought of you not being in heaven with me one day". Heh. Try sticking up for your atheism right in that moment, when that's a very close family member sobbing in your arms...  :P If you CAN, then you've got a stronger stomach than I do. Or different priorities.

I think it's just sad. First, that they'd be SO certain their way was correct, and stick to their ideas like crutches... but secondly and most importantly, it's sad that they're tormented and lying awake at night, worrying about the eternal souls of the people they love. I feel really bad for them. I don't want ANYONE to ever worry over me like that. I'd MUCH sooner people just enjoy their life while they have it. Enjoy and love the people you know. Appreciate living right now. *shrug*


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Sweetdeath

Yes. It's like me saying "i locked my daughter in my bedroom to protect her."
We all know such a way of thinking is utterly reckless and insane. So, look how dangerous it is  for a large mass of people whom strongly believe their way is right, then continue to force their beliefs on others who dont ask/want it. It really pisses me off.
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

En_Route

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 24, 2012, 10:55:19 PM
Quote from: En_Route on April 24, 2012, 06:01:38 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.



I don't believe in personal responsibility but even if I did, I cannot see how somebody who is incapable of realising the consequences
of their actions  could be  regarded as culpable.

Though I do believe in personal responsibility (things would fall apart IMO if we didn't take it as a given), as for the rest of what you said, I feel the same way.  

I agree that the maintenance of social order depends on assigning personal responsibility for our actions. However, at the philosophical level, I think it is  merely a useful fiction, propped up by quasi-religious notions of free will. 
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).

OldGit


Asmodean

Quote from: Asmo on April 24, 2012, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not?  I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation.  :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Same here. We can only hope that other places put indoctrination behind them.
Hey, Asmo, it's been some time since you mocked and/or insulted any one. I'm still waiting for a chane to use some mod red here  ;D
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sweetdeath

Quote from: Asmodean on April 25, 2012, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: Asmo on April 24, 2012, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 04:46:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not?  I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation.  :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.
Same here. We can only hope that other places put indoctrination behind them.
Hey, Asmo, it's been some time since you mocked and/or insulted any one. I'm still waiting for a chane to use some mod red here  ;D

Asmo is  acting a bit weird lately. XP
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

rickrocks

The hardest part of being an atheist is interacting with family. I'm thinking of my family. We have representatives of every faction from holy roller to atheist pinkos. And we've always been able to sit around the holiday dinner table and talk about different concepts. Nowadays, my nephew has grown up, become a Baptist preacher, and sired four of the greatest kids. The mom is a great, loving person who totally lives for her family. It sounds idyllic. But there's a divisiveness in it that keeps me from feeling comfortable in suggesting a get-together. The kids are home-schooled, and they all never interact on a social level outside of their fellow church members. They are almost cloistered like the Amish, with limited contact with the outside world. Their entire existence is based on praising God and being totally thankful to God for their blessings and doing God's work in the world. God is the source of life and love to them.

I think of their family portrait. There they sit, the six of them, and five more if you count my other nephew, all set up real perfect and pretty, all set up like bowling pins. Me? I've been godless since just after high school ('71). And I really want to keep up the relationship we had all the time I was "Uncle Rick". I want to be an influence, but I hesitate. Why? Because they have it going on so nicely. I feel like if I was to be myself around them, I would knock down all those bowling pins. This bull could destroy that china shop. Nephew or wife could possibly change their mind on God and re-, or un-convert, lose the faith. This could lead to the deterioration of their marriage, destruction of the family unit, rebellion and dissension among the kids, destruction of their perfect little universe.

Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me. 

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me. 

I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


rickrocks

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2012, 01:31:09 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me. 

I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.

It's unfortunate that during family parties, the conversation circles around how full our stomachs are, and whatever game is on tv.

Amicale

Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 04:10:31 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2012, 01:31:09 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me. 

I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.

It's unfortunate that during family parties, the conversation circles around how full our stomachs are, and whatever game is on tv.

Hmm. Actually, I like talking about mundane, simple stuff with my family. Just catching up on life, talking about good food, school events for the kids, work for the adults, etc. Just touching base on that stuff is a good thing, to me. If I want a philosophical conversation, that's when I go talk to a friend or log in here to HAF. :) I don't mind at all. I picked my friends for lots of different reasons, but my family are the people I go to when I want to just relax and tell my grandma how awesome her cabbage rolls were.  ;D


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

rickrocks

Amicale, nicely put. I will ponder further.

Hector Valdez

I find it interesting that a Christian will prosylytize to save those they love, while an Atheist will not, because they don't wont to hurt those they love.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Amicale on April 27, 2012, 04:20:04 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 04:10:31 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 27, 2012, 01:31:09 AM
Quote from: rickrocks on April 27, 2012, 01:23:41 AM
Maybe I'm overestimating my own influence, but what do you think? Do you see similar situations in your family? What do you do? It worries me. 

I'm not any sort of activist around my family, or social group that I really depend on. They know I'm an atheist, but that's it. Religion hardly comes up.

It's unfortunate that during family parties, the conversation circles around how full our stomachs are, and whatever game is on tv.

Hmm. Actually, I like talking about mundane, simple stuff with my family. Just catching up on life, talking about good food, school events for the kids, work for the adults, etc. Just touching base on that stuff is a good thing, to me. If I want a philosophical conversation, that's when I go talk to a friend or log in here to HAF. :) I don't mind at all. I picked my friends for lots of different reasons, but my family are the people I go to when I want to just relax and tell my grandma how awesome her cabbage rolls were.  ;D

Well put.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey