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Social Suicide

Started by musicality, April 24, 2012, 07:41:02 AM

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musicality

"Music is prophecy. Its styles are ahead of the rest of society because
it explores, much faster than material reality can, the entire range of
possibilities."

history_geek

I was thinking about posting this, but forgot. Indeed, a powerful vid, and to me personally it's almost surreal, in the sense that people actually have to go through this sort of stuff... ???
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clarke's Third Law
"Any sufficiently advanced alien is indistinguishable from a god."
Pierre-Simon, marquis de Laplace:
Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothése - I do not require that hypothesis[img]http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/4eef2cc3548cc9844a491b22ad384546.gif[/i

Guardian85

Makes me want to strangle some parents!
Some people should not be allowed to breed...


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Tank

A simple powerful message well delivered.

Thanks for posting.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 08:04:45 AM
Makes me want to strangle some parents!
Some people should not be allowed to breed...
Do you blame people for catching a cold?

As Richard Dawkins pointed out religion is very much like a 'mind virus'. Once infected with a religious meme it's not easy to just slough it off, we witness that situation here every day. What this goes to show is just how insidious and dangerous institutionalised superstitions can be in that they can turn parents against their own children.

It's the way the parents were brought up that's the problem. Musicality isn't going to bring her kids up to be superstitious so the chain is broken with her. There are loads of children of theists here and ex-theists that will also break the chain. I hope things will get better in the long run but in the near term humanity is going to go through some major pain as it divests itself of mythology. While anger is the immediate emotional response it shouldn't drown out the need to be sympathetic to those less fortunate than ourselves who still cling to their past, their memes and their upbringing.

Somewhere in all our ancestry we all have theist parents/grandparents etc etc. I wouldn't be too hard on mine.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Siz

#5
I feel more pity and sorrow than anger. Of course I feel sorrow for the 'children', but I also pity the parents because it is the fact that they are scared of going to hell that they feel compelled to disown their children. It is the act of a terrorised mind and must still be a wretched decision for them.

Although its easy for me, from the comfort of my Atheism, to say that I'd risk eternal damnation for the wellbeing of my children, if I truly believed in the likelihood (or even possibility) of eternal damnation, would I have the strength of love to risk being associated with the heathen offspring? These parents obviously do not.

Is it really their fault? Whose fault is it? It is the blameless children of today who will be teaching the perpetuators of tomorrow. Arguably there is no blame, ad infinitum, and no way to break the cycle if we are to preserve free will.

Sad...so very sad. Anyone got the answer to this one?

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Asmodean

Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
I wouldn't be too hard on mine.
If mine tried pushing their theism on me and I still turned out atheist, I'd hold a massive grudge. They'd probably never see nor hear from me again from the moment I could leave home.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Buddy

Wow. With my mother being the person I am closest too, that would absolutely crush me if she did that.  :-[
Strange but not a stranger<br /><br />I love my car more than I love most people.

Guardian85

Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.



"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Tank

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
What if they didn't know what a cold was or that they even had it? I grant you that in this day and age many more people have been exposed to the atheist meme, so many theists at least know some people who are atheists.

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not?  I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Jimmy

It may be social suicide, but anymore I don't really care. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist, but they'll figure me out sooner or later if they're around me long enough( I don't pray at family gatherings or say "bless you" when someone sneezes) By then they usually love me for other reasons( like for being a good friend, or neighbor, or coworker) than for what my outlook on life is. Society is changing now, especially for the younger generation. Thanks to the internet, there are myriads of stories of teenagers battling out and challenging their parents and grandparents on their religious traditions and these teenagers/young adults will pass this on to their children and so on, and with each successive generation, the stigma will become less and less. That is my hope anyways :)
For if there be no Prospect beyond the Grave, the inference is certainly right, Let us eat and drink, les us enjoy what we delight in, for to morrow we shall die.   ~John Locke~

Tank

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 02:46:55 PM
It may be social suicide, but anymore I don't really care. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist, but they'll figure me out sooner or later if they're around me long enough( I don't pray at family gatherings or say "bless you" when someone sneezes) By then they usually love me for other reasons( like for being a good friend, or neighbor, or coworker) than for what my outlook on life is. Society is changing now, especially for the younger generation. Thanks to the internet, there are myriads of stories of teenagers battling out and challenging their parents and grandparents on their religious traditions and these teenagers/young adults will pass this on to their children and so on, and with each successive generation, the stigma will become less and less. That is my hope anyways :)
That's a very good way to go about it. Let the believers figure it out by themselves.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Guardian85

Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 02:32:03 PM

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.
Why not?  I'm not trying to wind you up here. But if they are 'incapable of seeing' how can they be held responsible? If they have been brainwashed to what extent can they be held responsible for their actions?
Maybe in that case we need to move the blame back another generation.  :-\
But where I come from we put family before ideology.


"If scientist means 'not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,' I guess I'm a scientist, then."
-Unknown Smartass-

Amicale

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 02:46:55 PM
It may be social suicide, but anymore I don't really care. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist, but they'll figure me out sooner or later if they're around me long enough( I don't pray at family gatherings or say "bless you" when someone sneezes) By then they usually love me for other reasons( like for being a good friend, or neighbor, or coworker) than for what my outlook on life is. Society is changing now, especially for the younger generation. Thanks to the internet, there are myriads of stories of teenagers battling out and challenging their parents and grandparents on their religious traditions and these teenagers/young adults will pass this on to their children and so on, and with each successive generation, the stigma will become less and less. That is my hope anyways :)

Great approach. :) And like you, I hope that the stigma WILL become less and less. With time, learning, and our generation having some life experience as atheists, I think it'll get better.

I'm personally generally pretty non-combative. I'd sooner focus on getting to know people, and loving them, for reasons other than belief - they're kind, they're a good person, they're funny, etc etc. But if I know someone well enough to discuss something, and I also think they'd like to just have an occasional chat then I'm happy to share my idea and to hear theirs, as well. These are just conversations though, with people I respect, trust, and know very well... and I'd never consider these to be battles or challenges. I'm not trying to "win" anything; I'm just trying to share, and I hope they'll share too. It's about the respect we have for each other, really.

Also, like you, I don't tend to say much in general family situations, or around people in public. I don't want to hide my atheism, but I think they'll figure it out if they spend enough time around me. I don't offer to pray for people, or say bless you, or refer to faith in my daily life. They definitely clue in quickly. One family member used to spend almost all of his time discussing the bible with me, until he realized that I knew the bible pretty well, but that I didn't believe it -- that's when he stopped.  :D

In all seriousness, I feel so bad for people who have to worry about whether they'll lose their family over simply stating their beliefs. These people generally have a LOT more to lose than many of us, who had relatives who dealt with our coming out atheist or never being theist at all just fine. So it would be too easy to say 'the heck with those people, drop them from your life' or 'if my parents tried to raise me theist and I still turned out atheist, I'd leave', but.... that's your family. The people you've known and loved your entire life. Walking away from that isn't anything most people want to do.

As others have said here, it's just best to break the cycle as much as possible. Have it end with us. That's not to say our kids or grandkids will never be religious, but they won't be religious because WE threatened or forced or expected them to be.


"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

En_Route

Quote from: Guardian85 on April 24, 2012, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Tank on April 24, 2012, 08:15:59 AM
Do you blame people for catching a cold?
No, but I do blame the people who intentionally go around spreading the cold when we know how much it can ruin someone.
The fact that they themselves are incapable of seeing how much hurt they cause is hardly an excuse.



I don't believe in personal responsibility but even if I did, I cannot see how somebody who is incapable of realising the consequences
of their actions  could be  regarded as culpable.
Some ideas are so stupid only an intellectual could believe them (Orwell).