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Thoughts on Pantheism

Started by Jimmy, April 24, 2012, 04:20:56 AM

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Jimmy

Over the years I've been fine tuning both my outlook on the world around me AND the best description of that outlook. I find myself identifying philosophically to naturalism(not the naked kind ;) ) and I do not believe in gods and/or the supernatural, but I still have "spiritual" moments, in which I feel either connected to nature and/or the universe at large and have a complex set of emotions that are associated with those emotions; sometimes to the point that I draw tears(happy ones).  I recently came across the term naturalistic pantheism and this is the Wikipedia definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism
Now I realize that pantheism can also mean a literal belief in a God permeating everything, which doesn't make sense to me either, but my views of the term are more allegorical than literal and no NOT involve a deity, so that is where the naturalistic part comes in, to emphasize this lack of belief.
Anyone else have similar experiences or thoughts on this?
For if there be no Prospect beyond the Grave, the inference is certainly right, Let us eat and drink, les us enjoy what we delight in, for to morrow we shall die.   ~John Locke~

xSilverPhinx

Yes, though I woulod describe myself as having pantheistic tendencies, not really pantheistic in the sense of the word. The whole idea that nature is god just still sounds too religious to me, so i reject it.

The 'god' word has too much baggage, and some of it seeps into 'pantheism' as well.

But yeah, I'm nit-picky with the words. Just a bit.  :-X

One of the more interesting things that comes with atheism is a kind of awareness that I would also resist calling 'spiritual'. The thought that a part of the universe temporarily organised itself into something that's capable of observing itself is something profound IMO. Would that be more or less what you see as pantheism?






I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Jimmy

#2
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on April 24, 2012, 05:55:12 AM
Yes, though I woulod describe myself as having pantheistic tendencies, not really pantheistic in the sense of the word. The whole idea that nature is god just still sounds too religious to me, so i reject it.

The 'god' word has too much baggage, and some of it seeps into 'pantheism' as well.

But yeah, I'm nit-picky with the words. Just a bit.  :-X

One of the more interesting things that comes with atheism is a kind of awareness that I would also resist calling 'spiritual'. The thought that a part of the universe temporarily organised itself into something that's capable of observing itself is something profound IMO. Would that be more or less what you see as pantheism?

Yes, it is incredible to me that we are merely "star stuff" and are able to contemplate the fact that we are so; and knowing how tiny I am, compared to the cosmos as a whole, is truly humbling(especially when I see deep space photos).  So yes, I see pantheism under this lens, hence the adding of the naturalistic, or scientific adjective to the word pantheism. However, I'm not reluctant to use the word spiritual because I feel it best describes the emotions I have, which are more or less a deep awe and understanding and a feeling of love for the world around me. In fact, I'm sure the emotions I feel are probably derived from the same regions of the brain as those of the religious(let me know if I'm wrong here). At times, as an atheist, I would like to deny that I have these emotions because of their association with religion, probably much like how many religious people would like to deny that they have sexual desires because they think it is sinful.   I understand that there may be atheists that aren't comfortable embracing such feelings, and that is fine with me, I'm curious:

How many atheists experience these feelings and embrace them?
How many experience them but suppress them?
how many don't really experience them at all?
For if there be no Prospect beyond the Grave, the inference is certainly right, Let us eat and drink, les us enjoy what we delight in, for to morrow we shall die.   ~John Locke~

history_geek

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 02:27:13 PMHow many atheists experience these feelings and embrace them?

For my own part I can only point you to a video by philhllenes called Science Saved My Soul ;D ( and around 5:19-6:55 he pretty much says what I think about when people try to call this sense of awe and wonder "spiritual" or "religious" experience...though I guess "mindgasm" does have an interesting ring to it... :D ).

As for Pantheism, I really don't know. To me it sounds like the next step of Druidism or something. Without the Earth spirits and what not. In other words to me it's just another way to make me say that there is something that is in control of it all, be it universe and it's laws or "god". I'm just waiting for the say some guy hear about dark matter and how it most likely is holding the galaxies together and starts calling it "god".... :-\
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clarke's Third Law
"Any sufficiently advanced alien is indistinguishable from a god."
Pierre-Simon, marquis de Laplace:
Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothése - I do not require that hypothesis[img]http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/4eef2cc3548cc9844a491b22ad384546.gif[/i

Siz

Isn't Pantheism just a romanticised description of our universe? It seems that it's only the language used, rather than the substance of the idea that sets it apart from pure, concentrated Atheism.

No such romance from me. I love to revel in the glorious inanity of it all and do not require the crutch of such emotive fancy.

When one sleeps on the floor one need not worry about falling out of bed - Anton LaVey

The universe is a cold, uncaring void. The key to happiness isn't a search for meaning, it's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually you'll be dead!

Recusant

Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 04:20:56 AM
Anyone else have similar experiences or thoughts on this?

Yes, I have had similar experiences, and consider them a natural reaction to being here as part of the universe/being an aspect of the universe which can experience at least some of itself. I think that "naturalistic pantheism" is somewhat of a misnomer, but on the other hand I would have trouble coming up with an appropriate name for it, so can't really carp too much. I hope that they manage to do some good.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Sweetdeath

Quote from: Scissorlegs on April 25, 2012, 12:19:57 AM
Isn't Pantheism just a romanticised description of our universe? It seems that it's only the language used, rather than the substance of the idea that sets it apart from pure, concentrated Atheism.

No such romance from me. I love to revel in the glorious inanity of it all and do not require the crutch of such emotive fancy.

I feel as if there are too many terms for simple things..
What exactly is Pantheism?
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Jimmy

Quote from: Sweetdeath on April 25, 2012, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: Scissorlegs on April 25, 2012, 12:19:57 AM
Isn't Pantheism just a romanticised description of our universe? It seems that it's only the language used, rather than the substance of the idea that sets it apart from pure, concentrated Atheism.

No such romance from me. I love to revel in the glorious inanity of it all and do not require the crutch of such emotive fancy.

I feel as if there are too many terms for simple things..
What exactly is Pantheism?

The modern meaning is often defined as God and the Universe being one in the same. However, it can mean something different to atheists than to theists, to the former it is more often about awe, wonder, and scientific understanding, while the latter often involve the supernatural and spiritual union with the universe. I would be in the former.
For if there be no Prospect beyond the Grave, the inference is certainly right, Let us eat and drink, les us enjoy what we delight in, for to morrow we shall die.   ~John Locke~

Jimmy

Quote from: Recusant on April 25, 2012, 12:45:53 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on April 24, 2012, 04:20:56 AM
Anyone else have similar experiences or thoughts on this?

Yes, I have had similar experiences, and consider them a natural reaction to being here as part of the universe/being an aspect of the universe which can experience at least some of itself. I think that "naturalistic pantheism" is somewhat of a misnomer, but on the other hand I would have trouble coming up with an appropriate name for it, so can't really carp too much. I hope that they manage to do some good.

I've read that naturalistic can be interchanged with scientific; they're essentially describing the same thing.
For if there be no Prospect beyond the Grave, the inference is certainly right, Let us eat and drink, les us enjoy what we delight in, for to morrow we shall die.   ~John Locke~

Anne D.

I'm often awed by the beauty of nature or the vastness of the sky above/universe. I just wouldn't describe that as a spiritual experience. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

I'm also not blind to the ugliness in nature. Have you ever seen the movie Antichrist? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870984/ Overall, it is a total gut punch, but what it does do well is hammer in the fact that nature is not just beauty; nature is also horrific ugliness and "cruelty."

It takes our magnificent human brains to focus on the beauty to the exclusion of the ugliness.

(How's that for an upper of a post?  :) )


Jimmy

Quote from: Anne D. on April 25, 2012, 03:24:10 AM
I'm often awed by the beauty of nature or the vastness of the sky above/universe. I just wouldn't describe that as a spiritual experience. Maybe it's just a matter of semantics.

I'm also not blind to the ugliness in nature. Have you ever seen the movie Antichrist? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0870984/ Overall, it is a total gut punch, but what it does do well is hammer in the fact that nature is not just beauty; nature is also horrific ugliness and "cruelty."

It takes our magnificent human brains to focus on the beauty to the exclusion of the ugliness.

(How's that for an upper of a post?  :) )



No I haven't seen that movie, but I'll check it out.

You know, you're so right about humans focusing on the beauty most of the time, I never thought about it before( now that IS an upper ;)
For if there be no Prospect beyond the Grave, the inference is certainly right, Let us eat and drink, les us enjoy what we delight in, for to morrow we shall die.   ~John Locke~

Amicale

I understand where you're coming from, for sure. I LOVE being out in nature, seeing the living, growing things, watching the sky and the water. I love the feeling of looking up and night, and contemplating the stars, and space. I feel an emotional connection to it all. If someone wants to call it 'naturalistic pantheism', to me that's kind of the same thing as saying "a healthy sense of awe and wonder". :) That's prettymuch what it boils down to, for me.

I do understand that nature has an ugly side. Horrible storms, fire, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc. You might say when it comes to these things, I have "a healthy sense of awe and fear" -- I respect the natural power of the earth and what it's capable of, and I generally do my best to get out of the way, if something dangerous is beginning.... but even then, I have an odd fascination with that ugly side of nature. I love thunderstorms. I'm interested in twisters and earthquakes and tsunamis. Don't get me wrong, I hate that they kill people and destroy homes and lives... but I'm still somehow intrigued. Guess I should have went into a weather-related field of work.  :P

Anyway, I  feel like I do have an emotional/intellectual connection to the world and universe around me. I love wondering "are we the only ones out there?" and asking all the different fun questions.

I'd just stop short of calling it pantheism, secular or otherwise. :)



"Our lives are not our own. From womb to tomb we are bound to others. By every crime and act of kindness we birth our future." - Cloud Atlas

"To live in the hearts of those we leave behind is to never die." -Carl Sagan

Anne D.

Jimmy--just a warning/heads-up if you do plan to watch the movie: have something fun/uplifting lined up afterward. To say it's a "downer" is a total understatement. It left me feeling yicky for days.

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 03:42:52 AM
I do understand that nature has an ugly side. Horrible storms, fire, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc. You might say when it comes to these things, I have "a healthy sense of awe and fear" -- I respect the natural power of the earth and what it's capable of, and I generally do my best to get out of the way, if something dangerous is beginning.... but even then, I have an odd fascination with that ugly side of nature. I love thunderstorms. I'm interested in twisters and earthquakes and tsunamis. Don't get me wrong, I hate that they kill people and destroy homes and lives... but I'm still somehow intrigued. Guess I should have went into a weather-related field of work.  :P

But...some of those events are creative events.

Anyways back to the original topic: I've even heard some people call themselves 'atheistic pantheists' to differentiate themselves from theistic ones, so maybe that would be the label I would take to describe my views. 'Pantheism' by itself and the nature is god/god is nature thing makes it sound like nature has a mind.

Not to mention it's almost religious-sounding, which wouldn't be correct either for me. It's not like I worship nature or feel the need to find something to worship.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Sweetdeath

Quote from: Amicale on April 25, 2012, 03:42:52 AM
I understand where you're coming from, for sure. I LOVE being out in nature, seeing the living, growing things, watching the sky and the water. I love the feeling of looking up and night, and contemplating the stars, and space. I feel an emotional connection to it all. If someone wants to call it 'naturalistic pantheism', to me that's kind of the same thing as saying "a healthy sense of awe and wonder". :) That's prettymuch what it boils down to, for me.

I do understand that nature has an ugly side. Horrible storms, fire, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, etc. You might say when it comes to these things, I have "a healthy sense of awe and fear" -- I respect the natural power of the earth and what it's capable of, and I generally do my best to get out of the way, if something dangerous is beginning.... but even then, I have an odd fascination with that ugly side of nature. I love thunderstorms. I'm interested in twisters and earthquakes and tsunamis. Don't get me wrong, I hate that they kill people and destroy homes and lives... but I'm still somehow intrigued. Guess I should have went into a weather-related field of work.  :P

Anyway, I  feel like I do have an emotional/intellectual connection to the world and universe around me. I love wondering "are we the only ones out there?" and asking all the different fun questions.

I'd just stop short of calling it pantheism, secular or otherwise. :)



Oh, Asmo. You seem more poetic than usual. :)
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.