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I don't call myself much of anything.

Started by joeoleson, April 15, 2012, 04:56:38 PM

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joeoleson

I need ten to hit the threads, so I think I'll relate something that occurred to me while reading introductions and get my tenth post in at the same time.

A lot of the introductions had a particular theme in common (especially with the younger set), that labeling themselves atheist is stressful and full of peril.  That it's akin to coming out of the closet as a homosexual.

At one time in our collective history, yes it was.  Your ass could be and would be burned at the stake for proclaiming your atheism.  Most likely one of your own family would have lit you up.  But to liken it to the coming out of a homosexual to his/her world is cheapening their plight in our modern world; they still get put to death around the globe. 

As for me, I don't call myself much of anything.  Atheist, agnostic, humanist, etc, there all labels that identify a person as someone that disagrees with a large, multifaceted group of people that run the gambit from peaceful and law abiding to zealot enough to kill other people.  Religion, the single greatest killer of man, and yet it has always been with us.  The worse times have gotten in the past, the stronger the grip on religion became from those that couldn't face the world without a benevolent provider and protector.  I estimate them to be about 80% of the world's population (so when I refer to 80%s, that's who I mean). 

I haven't had much association with religious people in the last 20 years or so; what I remember of it involved a lot of hypocrisy.  Whatever they did was correct because it was sanctioned by god and they knew where they were going when they died.  Did I?  I'd tell them yep, I'm going in the ground.  This always seemed to scare them; they'd get all frantic and try to save my soul.  They would try to scare me with the denial of heaven; I'd respond that I was far more concerned with the bird in my hand than the two that they say are waiting for me if I join their group.  Praying to god or Bob the Snicker Doodle under my frig, the results are the same.  But, Bob's not judgmental or homicidal when disagreed with.  This last bit usually put them off me. 

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that as far as labels are concerned, i'm just joe.  I'm just a guy trying to get through life as best I can without having to give up my freedom because some hypocrite put me in a corner.  If that means I keep to myself, well I like myself so that's just fine.  My greatest concern today is whether one of my baby chickens is going to make it after I accidentally stepped on its head last night when putting them up.  No praying to the sky pilot, just genital care. 

Just be yourself; whomever that may be.  The only rule I'd state is the one I've seen here covered by others; being godless does not equal being moral-less.  God is not needed to be a moral person; denying god isn't a free ticket to be an ass.  Other than that, welcome to the three ring circus that is reality; it is a far more enjoyable show when you realize that the script isn't written in stone, it's written as you live it.                 
just joe

Tank

Moved thread to Life as an Atheist now Joe has 10 posts and can comment on the thread.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ali

Are you a farmer (sorry, I'm stuck on the baby chicken part of your post.)  How is the chick?

As for the rest of it; well, I don't think it's particularly useful to play the "Who has it worse?" game between disenfranchised minorities.  But all the same, I can appreciate that you don't personally feel the need for a label for your lack of belief.  Others have argued same, and I think that in a perfect world I wouldn't either.  It reminds me of the old saying "I'll be a post-feminist in the post-patriarchy."  Meaning, I won't fight this fight when there is no longer a need.  I feel the same about atheism.

Tank

It's easier to be a closet atheist than a closet homosexual. The former condition may by annoying while the later can be very dangerous as one would feel a physical inclination to express one's desires. But to say atheism is no longer a threat to one's life is IMO a little Ameriocentric. I doubt you'll get many atheists who feel safe to admit their intellectual predilection in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia, Afghanistan or the Southern states in America.

And as 'The' Ali points out there is little point differentiating on the grievance card. When all people can be who they want to be (provided that dos no harm to others) is when we can consider 'job done' as far as human social evolution/progress is concerned.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

joeoleson

I'll give you Tank that in some parts of the world it is still deadly to be an atheist, and if one is the type of atheist that has to wear their atheism on their sleeve the way most religious people wear their particular belief on their sleeve, then chances are your going to get stoned to death (in the bad, not with cannabis, way).  I was just saying not to define oneself with a replacement for something as intangible as what is being cast aside.  Don't reclassify, just live.

Ms. Ali
I'm not a farmer, we live on 5 acres of wooded land in West central Arkansas and I like eggs, lots of eggs, in all kinds of dishes.  Local and national news isn't giving me a lot of confidence in my future ability to get eggs, or most anything else, so I'm raising my own.  A neighbor gave us a rooster and a hen 2 months ago and I've had a fresh egg almost daily since then (and yes, its heaven  ;D).  Six weeks ago my gal asked me if I thought I could raise them from chicks.  They're all still alive and thriving.  The hen I stepped on is back with the flock running with them, at the very least she'll be blind in one eye.  I just hope she's eating; I got her to take water, but haven't seen her eat yet.  We have 26 assorted six week old chicks, two turkeys, three geese and three duck that are also six weeks old.  I'm still kind of amazed at how fond I've become of them, especially the turkeys.  I would have never guessed that they would be so affectionate.  Thank you for asking. 
just joe

Tank

Quote from: joeoleson on April 15, 2012, 07:05:05 PM
I'll give you Tank that in some parts of the world it is still deadly to be an atheist, and if one is the type of atheist that has to wear their atheism on their sleeve the way most religious people wear their particular belief on their sleeve, then chances are your going to get stoned to death (in the bad, not with cannabis, way).  I was just saying not to define oneself with a replacement for something as intangible as what is being cast aside.  Don't reclassify, just live.

I agree with this, up to point, and that point/line is when I am describing myself to others. For communication to be effective one has to use terms that the other person understands. I think of myself as many things, one of which is an atheist. I don't classify myself as such but I'll qualify myself to assist communication with others.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Ali

Arkansas is pretty country.  I'm originally from SW MO, and my grandparents lived in Russellville AR for about 10 years, so I've spent a bit of time there.  That's cool about all of your chickens and turkeys and whatnot, but what are you going to do with them all?  Will you be able to eat them if you've taken a shine to them?  :)

DeterminedJuliet

Labels get a bad rap, but I kind of like them. People can't help but think in "classifications" all of the time. Our brains are constantly grouping, re-grouping, organizing and generally trying to make sense of the world. As much as we'd like to truly see every person as a unique individual, I don't think it's really going to happen. We're hardwired to "classify" people one way or another.

If that doesn't appeal to you personally, that's cool. But I never really understand when people call on others to do the same. I understand that stereotypes can be dangerous, but labels are proficient for a reason and they can be used for "good",  I think.  Coming up with your own set of "labels" is kind of empowering, actually. It gives you a frame of reference and connectedness to other people in your "group".

I willingly apply a lot of labels to myself ("mom", "newfoundlander", "atheist", "26 year old"). It doesn't change who I really am, but using those words helps my psyche "fit" the things about me together.

"We've thought of life by analogy with a journey, with pilgrimage which had a serious purpose at the end, and the THING was to get to that end; success, or whatever it is, or maybe heaven after you're dead. But, we missed the point the whole way along; It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing, or dance, while the music was being played.

Sandra Craft

I have to admit that I pretty much agree with everyone who got here before me, tho I'm sure other opinions will turn up soon enough.

There are not only plenty of places in the world where you can catch as much heat for being atheist as queer, but even places in America where that can happen.  Frankly, being both atheist and queer myself I take no issue with the comparison -- altho I live in a part of the country where admitting to either is not a serious problem, there are still circumstances in which both can be absurdly awkward.  I also don't think that being in the closet for one is any easier than the other.  I've always found intellectual dishonesty just as difficult to live with as emotional dishonesty.

And I also have no problem with labels -- I know this is a cliche, but humans are pattern-seekers and labels are part of putting a pattern together.  Besides, altho there are times when labels can be confusing and over-simplistic, for the most part they're a handy short-cut and I know I definitely want to know more about people I meet than just "they're them".  Yes, I know that eventually I'll get to know more but I do like having short-cuts.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

joeoleson

Point taken Tank.  To be honest, I have very little contact with anyone besides my gal and sons, so living with the mentality I do doesn't get in the way.  I will admit that when I am in public I wish the logical people had some way of indicating who they are so I wouldn't have to wade through a sea of water-walkers to find a decent conversation.  I'm sure my label-phobia comes from somewhere honest.


Ms. Ali
This batch is going to grow old; their off-spring will be eaten.  If food gets tight before then we'll live off the land; this part of Arkansas is full of wildlife (both animal and plant) and my gal knows which ones can be eaten and how to prepare them.  Poke salad is big around here.  But then you probably already knew that.
just joe

Firebird

Just speaking for myself, but I don't equate coming "out of the closet" as atheist anywhere near as difficult as coming out as gay. I've had a couple of people close to me come out as gay, and it seemed much more traumatic for them than anything I ever went through. I also don't feel my atheism defines me as much as homosexuality does for them either. For example, when one of my friends came out a few years ago, he immediately began hanging out with a brand new community of friends that he met through other gay people. Nothing like that ever happened when a few of us admitted we didn't believe in god either. While there is an atheist community out there, I don't think there's as much of a tendency to band together. Which is probably a bit unfortunate, as it would be nice to have a more organized community, but I imagine that happens because of the trauma of the situation (ie, the need to seek out other people who've also had to go through what they have).
"Great, replace one book about an abusive, needy asshole with another." - Will (moderator) on replacing hotel Bibles with "Fifty Shades of Grey"

Stevil

Yeah, labels are handy in a way, such that you can express your position quickly and efficiently.
However, they can also be confusing.
The atheist label for example is often confused, especially with many people stating that they are agnostic rather than atheist.
Personally I find the agnostic label to be pointless. The vast majority of people whom proclaim themselves to be agnostic are actually atheist in the sense that they lack a belief in god/s.

Anyway, I think labels are beneficial. They can let you know that you are not alone, they can give you a sense of belonging, a sense of community.
They can make you feel proud and want to live up to an image of what you want that label to be portrayed as.
For some bizarre reason the "atheist" label has a bad reputation, especially within USA. The more people that publicly associate with it, the better, often people have fear of the unknown, and when they start to know people who are atheist then those fears disappear. They realise we are ordinary people, we just don't pray or go to church.

Tank

Quote from: joeoleson on April 15, 2012, 09:46:09 PM
Point taken Tank.  To be honest, I have very little contact with anyone besides my gal and sons, so living with the mentality I do doesn't get in the way.  I will admit that when I am in public I wish the logical people had some way of indicating who they are so I wouldn't have to wade through a sea of water-walkers to find a decent conversation.  I'm sure my label-phobia comes from somewhere honest.
Now there is a thought. Instead of a Pink or Rainbow ribbon maybe free thinkers shloud have some sort of symbol. I wonder what we should use?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Firebird on April 15, 2012, 10:17:40 PM
Just speaking for myself, but I don't equate coming "out of the closet" as atheist anywhere near as difficult as coming out as gay. I've had a couple of people close to me come out as gay, and it seemed much more traumatic for them than anything I ever went through.

Try coming out as a queer atheist to ardently religious queer friends/family.  You'd think there'd be some sympathy if not empathy because of the shared queerness but they can freak out over it more than anyone.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Stevil

Quote from: Tank on April 15, 2012, 10:36:03 PM
Now there is a thought. Instead of a Pink or Rainbow ribbon maybe free thinkers shloud have some sort of symbol. I wonder what we should use?
Yup, I'd be keen to wear a chain with an atheist, free thinker symbol (pendant) as long as it was good taste.
Whitney posted quite a good one, but there doesn't seem to be a global symbol yet.

I wouldn't however wear the old git spaghetti monster jersey, I would want some a bit more subtle.