Author Topic: If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively op  (Read 499 times)

Papasito Bruno

  • Deranged Psychopathic Twinkle Toes
  • Blessing Her Holy Hooves
  • *****
  • Posts: 4973
  • Gender: Male
  • Save water. Shower together!
...
Careful my friend...

Sorry, but I can't be friends with a toll collector...
 

:unsure:


That was a reference to the false gnostics ::) of the past, from an obscure passage from the Nag Hammadi.


What the hell is a Gnostic Christian anyway?


The Living Gnosis of the Ahgendai
What True Gnostics DO NOT Believe
 
True Gnostics should not be confused with the false Gnostics of ages past, as represented by the codices and tractates discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945. Neither are we representative of those Gnostics which early church fathers argued against in their efforts to establish a single church orthodoxy with its attendant ecclesiastical authority. Got it?
 
 
TRUE GNOSTICS...
 
•  do not believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. True Gnostics are not Christians.
 
•  do not accept or believe in the Bible.
 
•  do not believe in original sin.
 
•  do not believe that mankind is inherently evil.
 
•  do not believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. For the doctrine of blood atonement presents a God who demands the human sacrifice of an innocent man, and any God who demands murder to appease justice is unworthy of worship or adoration.
 
•  do not believe in hell or final judgment. For the doctrine of hell and eternal torment are immoral beliefs, and the doctrine of final judgment perverts and distorts mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
 
•  do not believe in Jehovah. However, true Gnostics do accept that the biblical Jehovah is a demiurge, an evil monster who would present himself as God in order to confuse mankind with regard to what is truly right and wrong.
 
•  do not believe in a devil which leads people into sin. Humankind has produced enough devils of its own without having to create the fictional variety in order to explain the evil that people do against each other. We are accountable to God for our acts of inhumanity towards each other. There is no devil to bring to account.

Weird shit man. :o
Every taco is hand rolled with exotic Mexican spices by genuine Mayan Virgins.
Or. Carlos, depending on who's available.

I really, really hate anti-semantics.

Asmodean

  • The Grumpy Lumpy
  • Administrator
  • Luxembourg Trembles!
  • *****
  • Posts: 14314
  • The GrayGod
Weird shit man. :o
Weird shit? Hm! True Asmos, they don't even believe in Asmos.


...And ought to be smote for their blasphemy by The One Truestest and Terriblestestest of All True Asmos  >:(
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

  • Beginning to See the Wedge
  • *
  • Posts: 35
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

Christians and Muslims seem to think so as evidenced by Inquisitions and Jihads.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

 We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and good moral arguments and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them a better and more moral ways. Some of Christianity has adopted these better ways of late but Islam is lagging and fighting against ideological reform.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
I don't have a really set ideology, I guess it would be humanism, where I don't want to do harm to anyone. So no, I feel no specific compunction to oppose "immorality" or evil, though I might do so anyway, if the occasion arose. It's a pretty broad question.
But I don't feel too bad about my vague answer, because you don't make much sense yourself.
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan. You think God should die a slow painful death. You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings, but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him. 
And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral, so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.

It certainly is when you put so many assumption in my mouth that are false.

Context of answers has to be kept in mind.

Better to ask me what I think instead of telling me what I think.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop

  • Beginning to See the Wedge
  • *
  • Posts: 35
...
Careful my friend...

Sorry, but I can't be friends with a toll collector...
 

:unsure:


That was a reference to the false gnostics ::) of the past, from an obscure passage from the Nag Hammadi.


What the hell is a Gnostic Christian anyway?


The Living Gnosis of the Ahgendai
What True Gnostics DO NOT Believe
 
True Gnostics should not be confused with the false Gnostics of ages past, as represented by the codices and tractates discovered at Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945. Neither are we representative of those Gnostics which early church fathers argued against in their efforts to establish a single church orthodoxy with its attendant ecclesiastical authority. Got it?
 
 
TRUE GNOSTICS...
 
•  do not believe in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. True Gnostics are not Christians.
 
•  do not accept or believe in the Bible.
 
•  do not believe in original sin.
 
•  do not believe that mankind is inherently evil.
 
•  do not believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. For the doctrine of blood atonement presents a God who demands the human sacrifice of an innocent man, and any God who demands murder to appease justice is unworthy of worship or adoration.
 
•  do not believe in hell or final judgment. For the doctrine of hell and eternal torment are immoral beliefs, and the doctrine of final judgment perverts and distorts mercy, compassion, and forgiveness.
 
•  do not believe in Jehovah. However, true Gnostics do accept that the biblical Jehovah is a demiurge, an evil monster who would present himself as God in order to confuse mankind with regard to what is truly right and wrong.
 
•  do not believe in a devil which leads people into sin. Humankind has produced enough devils of its own without having to create the fictional variety in order to explain the evil that people do against each other. We are accountable to God for our acts of inhumanity towards each other. There is no devil to bring to account.

Weird shit man. :o

That leads to a moral ideology that does not include idol worship of a genocidal son murdering God.

That is what weird Christian shit is.

My shit is good shit.

Regards
DL

Magdalena

  • Butterfly of Doom.
  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7190
  • Gender: Female
  • Angry hippies need to smoke cheap weed.
...
My shit is good shit.

Regards
DL

Your shit is good shit?


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

Icarus

  • The wise one.
  • Blessing Her Holy Hooves
  • *****
  • Posts: 4563
GCB used the word: context, above.   It may be useful to know that that word is a sort of red flag for atheists.  Lesser Christian apologists use that word often  It is a defensive word for them. It is a feeble argument word for many of us.

Dragonia

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 481
  • Gender: Female
If you think an ideology or religion is immoral and evil, should you actively oppose it?

...

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

Regards
DL
....
 It's a pretty broad question.
But I don't feel too bad about my vague answer, because you don't make much sense yourself.
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan. You think God should die a slow painful death. You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings, but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him. 
And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral, so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.

It certainly is when you put so many assumption in my mouth that are false.

Context of answers has to be kept in mind.

Better to ask me what I think instead of telling me what I think.

Regards
DL
Your response confuses me even more. I wasn't trying to assume anything about you, I was simply putting the things that YOU said together, trying to make sense of them.
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
These quotes from GCB are all from this thread:
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=15404.0

Dragonia:
What the hell is a Gnostic Christian? You said in a previous post that you think God is more evil than Satan, but you don't believe in Satan.
Quote
... but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

 You think God should die a slow painful death.
Quote
The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. 

You believe in Jesus and follow his moral teachings,
Quote
As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught.


but Jesus is God's son, according to the only documentation that we have of him.  
(That would be the Bible)

And you're wondering if we should oppose bad ideologies, I think yours is such. You strive for perfection, supposedly achieved by following Jesus' moral teachings. But his teachings aren't all moral,
(Many verses:
Matthew 19:21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
”Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 10:35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
Luke 14:26  “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.)

so how do you decide which is which? And how can you deny Jesus' Father, but think Jesus is great? It's very confusing.
END QUOTE FROM DRAGONIA

So yeah, what's up? I believe you when you said
Quote
 I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. 
And Atheists.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Magdalena

  • Butterfly of Doom.
  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7190
  • Gender: Female
  • Angry hippies need to smoke cheap weed.
...
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
Dragonia, you did great!


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

Papasito Bruno

  • Deranged Psychopathic Twinkle Toes
  • Blessing Her Holy Hooves
  • *****
  • Posts: 4973
  • Gender: Male
  • Save water. Shower together!
I wonder if this is how Jehovah, the demiurge, or evil monster looks like?




Scary, butt not too scary.




Every taco is hand rolled with exotic Mexican spices by genuine Mayan Virgins.
Or. Carlos, depending on who's available.

I really, really hate anti-semantics.

Dave

  • Formerly known as Gloucester
  • Blessing Her Holy Hooves
  • *****
  • Posts: 4359
  • Gender: Male
GCB used the word: context, above.   It may be useful to know that that word is a sort of red flag for atheists.  Lesser Christian apologists use that word often  It is a defensive word for them. It is a feeble argument word for many of us.

Aw, don't blame poor old "context", Icarus, it is a perfectly valid word - just 'cos people you don't like use it against you!

In its correct context "context" is a useful friend. One of my favourites in fact.

 :grin:
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

Dragonia

  • A Frood Who Really Knows Where Their Towel Is
  • **
  • Posts: 481
  • Gender: Female
...
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
Dragonia, you did great!

Thanks. It was hard.
:hug:
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~ Plato (?)

Magdalena

  • Butterfly of Doom.
  • Don't Pray in My School, and I Won't Think in Your Church
  • *****
  • Posts: 7190
  • Gender: Female
  • Angry hippies need to smoke cheap weed.
...
Since I don't know how to do this in a graceful, easy to read manner, it's about to get choppy....
Dragonia, you did great!

Thanks. It was hard.
:hug:

I know it is, but totally worth it.  :snicker:


“I've had several "spiritual" or numinous experiences over the years, but never felt that they were the product of anything but the workings of my own mind in reaction to the universe.” ~Recusant

"Color me fascinated..." ~Asmodean, The Gray God.

Bad Penny II

  • Despises Pat Robertson
  • **
  • Posts: 663
  • Borderline Troll
GCB used the word: context, above.   It may be useful to know that that word is a sort of red flag for atheists.  Lesser Christian apologists use that word often  It is a defensive word for them. It is a feeble argument word for many of us.

Aw, don't blame poor old "context", Icarus, it is a perfectly valid word - just 'cos people you don't like use it against you!

In its correct context "context" is a useful friend. One of my favourites in fact.

 :grin:

I'm not going to surrender the word "context".
How would you know where you was without it?
Different colours made of tears
These days I mostly I post when I’m pissed ([Brit, vulgar] Very drunk) so I’m liable to say shit.

Gnostic Christian Bishop

  • Beginning to See the Wedge
  • *
  • Posts: 35
This "DL" goes by a different name on other sites. I suspected it was him when he created the account, because there really isn't any such thing as a "Gnostic Christian" and he's the only person I've encountered who describes themself as such. Despite my familiarity with his views, I decided that I couldn't in good faith with the ethos of this site just reject his account out of hand.

So, Gnostic Christian Bishop, perhaps you could give us some history of the development and principles of this Gnostic Christianity that you profess. For instance, name some historical figures that we would be able to read about who professed Gnostic Christianity in the past. Thank you in advance.

There are many but your own research is likely better than what I would give you to ignore.

I asked you, Gnostic Christian Bishop, because as I clearly stated in the post to which you are replying, to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as "Gnostic Christianity." This is your chance to set me straight. If you are incapable of giving an honest reply or are unwilling to do so, you will confirm my understanding.

I am a Gnostic Christian and we have always seen it as part of our belief system to oppose immoral and evil belief systems. We are not pacifists but historically have done our ideological fighting with good arguments instead of violence.

Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence.

We have also called on all good people to actively oppose religions and ideologies that they feel are immoral and not deserving of their respect. That is a take-off on the adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing. Gnostic Christians believe in spreading good ideologies.

Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did call them out for their evils in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

Great, please show me past examples of Gnostic Christians calling out Christianity and Islam for their evils.

In whatever belief system you follow, be it humanist, secular, atheistic or religious, does your ideology require you to fight other ideologies or religions you find immoral or harmful to society?

Given the above it appears that you consider argument to be equivalent to fighting. I argue against what I consider to be harmful elements in society, but not because of an ideology as such. Rather I do so as a means of discovery and because of my personal opposition to those harmful elements. Nor do I consider argument to be equivalent to fighting. In my view, ideally it is a way of learning and on rare occasions it can be a means to persuasion.

Please specify what ideology you follow in your reply.

For the sake of this discussion I will describe my ideology as Epicurean.

I am not going to provide links to the reality of Gnostic Christianity for you to ignore.

Do your own research or continue to think Gnostic Christianity a fiction.

I am not interested in your games. They are transparent.

-------

"Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence."

While you are trying to prove we do not and did not exist, look up the word demiurge, and if it exists, you will note that it is a derogatory name for Yahweh which non-esisting Gnostic Christians postulated was evil.

"Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?"

All over the net and a good start would be here. http://gnosis.org/library.html

Our good ideology and good news that the bible speaks of is shown in this link.

Compare that to Christianity's slave wanting ideology and let me know which one you find as better.


Regards
DL

Recusant

  • Miscreant Erendrake
  • Administrator
  • Guardian of Reason
  • *****
  • Posts: 5605
  • Gender: Male
  • infidel barbarian
I am not going to provide links to the reality of Gnostic Christianity for you to ignore.

Do your own research or continue to think Gnostic Christianity a fiction.

If this is how a "Gnostic Christian" responds to polite requests for information, it's no wonder I've never heard of them before.

I am not interested in your games. They are transparent.

Nor am I interested in your posturing and chest-thumping. They are disagreeable.

Please present examples from reputable sources showing Gnostic Christians in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence.

While you are trying to prove we do not and did not exist, look up the word demiurge, and if it exists, you will note that it is a derogatory name for Yahweh which non-esisting Gnostic Christians postulated was evil.

I note that you failed to present even one example of "Gnostic Christians" in history fighting against immoral and evil belief systems with good arguments instead of violence. Is that because no such examples exist?

You're inferring an agenda that I am not pursuing. Proving a negative is almost always a futile endeavor. I plainly stated that I don't think there's any such thing as "Gnostic Christianity," but I asked you in several ways to provide evidence which would show my belief to be erroneous. You've declined to do so.

I read about the ancient Gnostics back when Elaine Pagels published her book The Gnostic Gospels. However, there is no historical evidence that the people who lived at Nag Hammadi called themselves "Gnostics." They were called so by Christians of that era and adjudged to be heretics. They ceased to exist well over a thousand years ago. If there is a modern group calling themselves "Christian Gnostics" who're trying to present themselves as a continuation of the ancient Gnostics, I would consider them little more credible than modern druids. Again, you're welcome to present evidence from reputable sources to help correct my understanding.

I did as you said, and this is what I found. The word "demiurge" predates what we now call Gnosticism by centuries, and literally means "public worker." According to the Oxford English Dictionary:

Quote
A name for the Maker or Creator of the world, in the Platonic Philosophy; in certain later systems, as the Gnostic, conceived as a being subordinate to the Supreme Being, and sometimes as the author of evil.

This is not evidence of the existence of modern "Gnostic Christians."

Very well, and what are the good ideologies, in the view of these Gnostic Christians? Where might I be able to read more about the views of Gnostic Christianity?

All over the net and a good start would be here. http://gnosis.org/library.html

Our good ideology and good news that the bible speaks of is shown in this link.

Compare that to Christianity's slave wanting ideology and let me know which one you find as better.

Am I to take it that you consider yourself to be a proponent of Gnosticism as found in the writings discovered at Nag Hammadi? Why not simply call yourself a Gnostic then--why "Gnostic Christian"?

What is your opinion of Elaine Pagels' writing and thinking regarding the Gnostic texts?

Is there a good reason why it took you two months to compose a reply to my post?
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken