Happy Atheist Forum

Quote from: "onlyme"

Quote from: "Court"Christianity is one of the most depressingly repressive religions out there. I feel sorry for people who try to be "good christians."

court, surely you have heard about how muslims treat their women and lawbreakers.  That is more repressive than Christianity.

Hello, I said "one of." Islam's definitely up there, as well.
And Christianity is just as repressive.

Quote from: "onlyme"As for repressive, well, to be honest, I think that in Christianity, 90 percent of the battle is within ourselves, that is, directed at controlling our own selfish desires rather than imposing such views on the world.

First of all, christianity does try to impose its moral views on the world. Let's think about anti-abortionists protesting and harassing patients. Let's think about the religious right fighting tooth and nail to teach our children ignorance with abstinence-based sex ed programs. It's simply a lie to say that christians are not trying to impose their false morals on the world. A lie.
Secondly, that's the problem with christians! They are voluntary repressing themselves! It's ridiculous. Why would god give you natural human desires and then expect you to "battle" them all of the time?
And, so we're on the same page, please tell me exactly what you're talking about when you say "our selfish desires." Like, sex and lying? What sins to you place under that label?

Quote from: "onlyme"It may be difficult for us to try and control our own selfish urges and desires, etc, but it's generally for the benefit of society at large.  This relates to other postings I've made, for example, single parent families, paedophilia, and other things.

I simply am astounded that you group single parent families with pedophilia. Astounded.
Anyway, again, I would like for you to elaborate what you mean exactly by "selfish desires and urges." What things does christianity forbid that you want to do anyway (but, through a test of willpower, I guess, you overcome)? I'd like a list of what you think are the worse sins that battled within oneself.

Quote from: "onlyme"All I'm saying is that sometimes we need to keep ourselves in check for the good of others, rather than being a 'me, me' generation which seeks only our own fulfilment, and to hell with the rest.

I guess I can't really respond to this until I know exactly what sins you mean, because I'm not sure what you mean by "keeping ourselves in check"....

onlyme, my mother had to raise me when my parents divorced (after years of fighting, seperations, and things being thrown by both parties) and then roughly a year after the divorce my father died in a car accident. How does my mother being a single-parent fit in the same category as a pedophile? This right here has pissed me off. And usually I acknowledge you are trying.
onlyme, my mother had to raise me when my parents divorced (after years of fighting, seperations, and things being thrown by both parties) and then roughly a year after the divorce my father died in a car accident. How does my mother being a single-parent fit in the same category as a pedophile? This right here has pissed me off. And usually I acknowledge you are trying.onlyme, my mother had to raise me when my parents divorced (after years of fighting, seperations, and things being thrown by both parties) and then roughly a year after the divorce my father died in a car accident. How does my mother being a single-parent fit in the same category as a pedophile? This right here has pissed me off. And usually I acknowledge you are trying.
     


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Quotechristianity does try to impose its moral views on the world.

Christianity doesn't Christians do; an important distinction.

Quote from: "iplaw"Christianity doesn't Christians do; an important distinction.

But Christianity does advocate proselytizing people of other religions/people without religion. There are many Bible verses that prove this.

So the Christians who push their views on others are just following what their holy book tells them really.

Onlyme missed that I started a new thread, and responded on the old one, so I'm copying his response to me here:

As for Christians 'imposing' their moral values on the world - as I said, the main thrust of our lives should be centered on 'ourselves' rather than others.

I don't group paedophilia with single parent familes. All I'm saying is that we sometimes have to abandon our own selfish attitudes, in favour of the greater good, whether it be paedophilia (selfish), or single parent families (abdicating our responsibilities to our childrend, in order to pursue our own selfish, pleasure-seeking agenda)

I know a lot of single parent familes do a great job. My daughter is one of them. I just wish that the father had made a commitment in the first place to his child, which he doesn't. My grandson is a real person who misses his 'dad'. What is wrong with people that they can get a girl pregnant, and then not care about either her, or the welfare of their child. That is an abdication of responsibility in my opinion. Or should we side with the 'father', and 'his' human rights, above the rights of the children that they produce. I hope that common sense, and not selfishness, would prevail in this situation, among thinking people.

Personally, onlyme, I think I would have been better off if my father had abandoned his responsibility and run off on my mother. Some people are simply not meant for that sort of responsibility, and hanging around will probably only hinder the child from developing normally.

Not only that, but you are assuming that all single parent families exist because of irresponsible sex, which simply isn't true. Honestly, I wouldn't exist (and neither would my "sinful" single-parent family) if my mother hadn't gone to a private christian high school and college. She didn't learn about birth control, so she had me. Who's at fault in that situation?

Quote from: "Jassman"

Quote from: "iplaw"Christianity doesn't Christians do; an important distinction.

But Christianity does advocate proselytizing people of other religions/people without religion. There are many Bible verses that prove this.

So the Christians who push their views on others are just following what their holy book tells them really.

What he said. Jesus even tells the apostles at the end when he is ascending into heaven to go forth and spread the news to all nations and kings and peasants of his glory. So yes, they are being Good Christians when they are pushing their views.

Quote from: "Big Mac"What he said. Jesus even tells the apostles at the end when he is ascending into heaven to go forth and spread the news to all nations and kings and peasants of his glory. So yes, they are being Good Christians when they are pushing their views.

Too bad their views are screwed up and ridiculous.

QuoteBut Christianity does advocate proselytizing people of other religions/people without religion. There are many Bible verses that prove this.

Many people proselytize for many causes, as many here proselytize for atheism.  I think you folks have confused proselytizing with imposition of views; two different things.  Scripture encourages haring views not imposition of views.  Please point to me where Christ implored me to impose my belief on someone else in contradistinction with sharing my faith.

QuoteToo bad their views are screwed up and ridiculous.

Court.  This board started off to be a great place where both sides could exchange ideas without being branded with descriptions.  I respect your right to your belief and would never call your ideas foolish or screwed up no matter how I felt about them.  Arguments here are getting to be a little hyperbolistic for me.

Quote from: "Court"

Quote from: "Big Mac"What he said. Jesus even tells the apostles at the end when he is ascending into heaven to go forth and spread the news to all nations and kings and peasants of his glory. So yes, they are being Good Christians when they are pushing their views.

Too bad their views are screwed up and ridiculous.

Hey, woman, you need to keep quiet because it says in the Good Book for women to be silent in the churches. A man tells you to do something, and you and your baby cave better do it if you know what's good for you! Hyuck!


Hahahahaa.

It's difficult to debate with you, iplaw, because you, unlike most christians, are more concerned with Jesus's teaching and not the whole bible. I could tell you Deuteronomy 13:6-10 tells you to stone those who try to proselytize to you, but I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say it.

Quote from: "iplaw"

QuoteToo bad their views are screwed up and ridiculous.

Court.  This board started off to be a great place where both sides could exchange ideas without being branded with descriptions.  I respect your right to your belief and would never call your ideas foolish or screwed up no matter how I felt about them.  Arguments here are getting to be a little hyperbolistic for me.

Okay, I apologize. I retract my statement.

Court, I like you too much to even argue with you about anything anymore.  I think we pretty much know where each other stand on most things and I respect you for your pursuit of truth so...there we have it.

Quote from: "iplaw"Court, I like you too much to even argue with you about anything anymore.  I think we pretty much know where each other stand on most things and I respect you for your pursuit of truth so...there we have it.

:)
Thank you, though.

What cop out. Charming people is pathetic dude. WHy won't you honestly defend the fact your religion pushes the idea that Homosexuals, Women, and people of neighboring countries are meant to feel God's wrath? And the funniest thing, it's all because he loves us like his children? I don't see the logic behind Christianity.

God sends himself down (in the form of his son) into a virgin. I'm curious why he didn't do like in Hosea and have it be a prostitute. It'd further show that he forgives all. Then he has the child disobey his parents when he's about 12 to go and talk to the elders, who were amazed by his understanding of the law (which is oddly similiar to how a lot of cults of personalities portray their leaders. Look at Hubbard and Moon and you'll see what I'm talking about). THen when he's 33 he is tortured and crucified to pay for our sins. Why so much violence with a loving God? It makes no sense.

I just got a defilibrator for your thread, Court.

Quote from: "iplaw"Many people proselytize for many causes, as many here proselytize for atheism.  .

I don't see what we do here as proselytizing.  If people don't want to hear about our views, beliefs and non-beliefs, they shouldn't be on an openly atheistic website.  

I don't go out in public and try to convert anyone.  

We are trying to get people to think for themselves.  Explaining why we think and believe as we do is not proselytizing.

Maybe I wasn't clear what proselytizing meant and should be replaced with "sharing views."

QuoteI don't go out in public and try to convert anyone.

No, but I bet you speak your mind when certain topics come up.  And to assert that atheists are not so bold as to convert I suggest you go to www.godisimaginary.com (http://www.godisimaginary.com) and explain what the purpose of saying "god is imaginary" in public would be other than to attempt to convert someone to think that "god is imaginary."  I don't mind the idea but to deny that some atheists don't engage in the same rhetorical tactics is a joke.

QuoteWe are trying to get people to think for themselves.  Explaining why we think and believe as we do is not proselytizing.

This is just semantics.  I regard sharing my faith exactly the same way.  Anyone who does more than share a viewpoint is in error.

iplaw, we can't blame you for the crimes of christianity against society. I don't think that christians should force their value systems into politics, etc. I also think that, although the bible doesn't specifically direct believers to do this, the spirit of the book does.

The other day, I saw these stupid flyers that said "God loves you" on the train and I took every one of them down. I honestly thought about putting up some for Jassman's God Solution website, but then I knew I'd be just as bad as them.

QuoteCharming people is pathetic dude.

Probably why you can't get a date.  :wink:   BTW, I have decided to unilaterally ignore your responses unless they involve topics about humor or Team America.  I don't care for responding to rants.

QuoteI also think, that although the bible doesn't specifically direct believers to do this, the spirit of the book does.

I think you inadvertantly make my point.  You can't judge a philosophy by it's abuses no matter how wacky the individual.

Quote from: "iplaw"No, but I bet you speak your mind when certain topics come up.  And to assert that atheists are not so bold as to convert I suggest you go to www.godisimaginary.com (http://www.godisimaginary.com) and explain what the purpose of saying "god is imaginary" in public would be other than to attempt to convert someone to think that "god is imaginary."  I don't mind the idea but to deny that some atheists don't engage in the same rhetorical tactics is a joke.

You are right that a major reason for that is to convert, or more accurately, to open peoples' minds to a point-of-view other than their own. But another reason is to help phase out the stigma associated with atheism. The general population, at least in North America, sees atheists as just a fringe group that are ignorant to their "one true God". They don't realize that they make up about 14% of the Canadian/American citizens (and growing; non-religion faster than any religion). In fact, Bush said:

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

That should be enough to fully illustrate my point.

Quote from: "Court"I honestly thought about putting up some for Jassman's God Solution website, but then I knew I'd be just as bad as them. :) I thought people would forget about the site after a day or so. Hopefully it will get quite a few hits once it gets out to the 31415926535 search engines I submitted it to.

Quote from: "iplaw"

QuoteI also think, that although the bible doesn't specifically direct believers to do this, the spirit of the book does.

I think you inadvertantly make my point.  You can't judge a philosophy by it's abuses no matter how wacky the individual.

Luckily for me, that's not the only problem I have with the christian "philosophy." Plus, it doesn't matter that christianity doesn't directly order its members to force their morals into my life, because they attempt to do it anyway. Thus, I feel the need to share my views. It's the only way to battle the political and social force that christianity has become.
Religion should be a private practice, but it's not.

Quote from: "Jassman"

Quote from: "Court"I honestly thought about putting up some for Jassman's God Solution website, but then I knew I'd be just as bad as them. :) I thought people would forget about the site after a day or so. Hopefully it will get quite a few hits once it gets out to the 31415926535 search engines I submitted it to.

I actually plan on scattering a few across campus, probably in the liberal arts building I just didn't think the train was an appropriate place.

QuoteThe general population, at least in North America, sees atheists as just a fringe group that are ignorant to their "one true God".

As the "general population" of atheists takes the fringe of the christian population and props them up as the norm.

To state that atheism is not a fringe group is incorrect.  It doesn't mean you aren't right it just means atheism is still a small philosophy in relation.  Also, by fringe I don't mean wacko.

Quote from: "iplaw"

QuoteThe general population, at least in North America, sees atheists as just a fringe group that are ignorant to their "one true God".

As the "general population" of atheists takes the fringe of the christian population and props them up as the norm.

I don't think fundies are the norm. But they do the most harm when it comes to pushing their value systems into our schools and politics.
However, the general population of christians, fundies or not, see atheists as immoral, fundamentally bad people. It's a stereotype we can't get rid of unless we explain ourselves. Thus, the "evangical" nature of some atheists.

Quote from: "iplaw"To state that atheism is not a fringe group is incorrect.  It doesn't mean you aren't right it just means atheism is still a small philosophy in relation.  Also, by fringe I don't mean wacko.

Well, you don't mean wacko, but the rest of America does. Yes, atheists are a minority. But that doesn't mean we should be attacked as immoral, satan-worshipping, kitten-sacrificers either.

Quote from: "Court"I actually plan on scattering a few across campus, probably in the liberal arts building I just didn't think the train was an appropriate place.

Well I better get that flyer template finished then (that is, if that is the one you plan on using). I also should fix up a display problem in Internet Explorer. At any rate, thanks a lot for your support!

Just understand that as disgusting as you see evangelical christians, reverse the sentiment for the average christian who sees an evangelical atheist.

You need to understand that for each and every shade and grade of christian you have a corresponding shade or grade of atheist.  One just prefers to argue for god the other against.  It has more to do with human nature than philosophy.  The fundie christian would be a fundie atheist in another life, they are just fundie in general and it wouldn't matter what it was about!

Quote from: "Jassman"

Quote from: "Court"I actually plan on scattering a few across campus, probably in the liberal arts building I just didn't think the train was an appropriate place.

Well I better get that flyer template finished then (that is, if that is the one you plan on using). I also should fix up a display problem in Internet Explorer. At any rate, thanks a lot for your support!

Whenever you're done with it, go ahead and email it to me: courtneystoker@yahoo.com

Quote from: "iplaw"Just understand that as disgusting as you see evangelical christians, reverse the sentiment for the average christian who sees an evangelical atheist.

But I don't think I've ever seen an evangelical atheist standing on a street corner yelling verses from Darwin.
Just understand that from our POV, christianity merely preaches ignorance...

How is the fundie yelling on the street corner any different from the fundie yelling "god is imaginary" in public when someone says "merry christmas" to them.  

As from our POV atheism preaches the same.  Just seeing life from different perspectives.

It's frustrating from both perspectives, I know. I used to, after all, be a christian.
But I think that promoting atheism serves two purposes (although, I wouldn't agree that yelling "god is imaginary" on the street is a good way to promote atheism): It debunks the false, negative stereotypes about atheists and it promotes open-mindedness and rationality. I just want people to understand why they believe the way they do, and urge them to use the same standards for their religious beliefs as they do for the rest of their beliefs (like not believing in Santa).

You should have stopped with the first sentence.  Any justification of evangelistic behavior for either side entitles the other to behave similarly without complaints.

Quote from: "iplaw"You should have stopped with the first sentence.  Any justification of evangelistic behavior for either side entitles the other to behave similarly without complaints.

I don't mind christians "sharing beliefs"... I mind forcing their beliefs. There's a difference. If I tell them in the first 30 seconds that I'm not interested, they should back off. This rarely happens.

Quote from: "Big Mac"onlyme, my mother had to raise me when my parents divorced (after years of fighting, seperations, and things being thrown by both parties) and then roughly a year after the divorce my father died in a car accident. How does my mother being a single-parent fit in the same category as a pedophile? This right here has pissed me off. And usually I acknowledge you are trying.
onlyme, my mother had to raise me when my parents divorced (after years of fighting, seperations, and things being thrown by both parties) and then roughly a year after the divorce my father died in a car accident. How does my mother being a single-parent fit in the same category as a pedophile? This right here has pissed me off. And usually I acknowledge you are trying.onlyme, my mother had to raise me when my parents divorced (after years of fighting, seperations, and things being thrown by both parties) and then roughly a year after the divorce my father died in a car accident. How does my mother being a single-parent fit in the same category as a pedophile? This right here has pissed me off. And usually I acknowledge you are trying.
     


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Bigmac, I think you missed my earlier post regarding this matter.  I clarified it by NOT lumping single parent families with paedophiles.  I don't know, maybe it was on another part of this forum.  I'm all fingers and thumbs at the moment - can't keep track of my postings.   Sorry, but please search for my posting history to elucidate my thoughts on this matter.

As I said earlier, I grew up in something of a similar situation, my father used to beat me and my sister for not going to school.  we feared him.  Now he's dead, though, I wish he were back, in all honesty.

I reply, with wondering thoughts, on many topics on this forum.  None of them seem to follow a common thread.  I apologise.  I'm new to this forum thing.  This is the first one I've been on.

Can't disagree.  I don't think I was arguing for anyone to do that though.

Quote from: "onlyme"Bigmac, I think you missed my earlier post regarding this matter.  I clarified it by NOT lumping single parent families with paedophiles.  I don't know, maybe it was on another part of this forum.  I'm all fingers and thumbs at the moment - can't keep track of my postings.   Sorry, but please search for my posting history to elucidate my thoughts on this matter.

You did post it in the wrong place. I copied it over for you, but Big M had already replied to your earlier post.

Quote from: "onlyme"As I said earlier, I grew up in something of a similar situation, my father used to beat me and my sister for not going to school.  we feared him.  Now he's dead, though, I wish he were back, in all honesty.

Why? My dad didn't beat me, but he was a verbally abusive, nasty, drunk son-of-a-bitch and I wish he would completely disappear from my life. I haven't spoken to him in at least six months, and it's a relief. If he died, I can't imagine wishing him back.

Quote from: "iplaw"Can't disagree.  I don't think I was arguing for anyone to do that though.

You weren't. I was just clarifying that by defending "sharing beliefs," I don't mean the tactics usually employed by the more militant christians. The only thing I do generally is talk about it with friends, so that they know that questioning their beliefs isn't sinful or terrible. I plan on posting some flyers around campus, but I don't find appropriately placed christian flyers offensive. The ones on the train pissed me off because people can't help but ride the train and it doesn't have a place for it...They had just stuck them on the signs that tell you about train safety.

iplaw,

are you a Christian, or an atheist?

Best question I have been asked all day

Quote from: "iplaw"Best question I have been asked all day

so, what is the answer?

He's a Christian. I'm not sure if you've noticed subtley how he talks about God in a rather awe-inspired light or not. And I think he made an explicitly Christian (as in he defended and spoke of his faith) post a while back.

Of course he is unilaterally (sounds like Dubya) ignoring me. Which is cool, because he has AIDS, just like eveyone has AIDS! (there, I made a Team America joke, are you going to respond :p )

Everyone's got AIDS!  You know why everyone has AIDS, cause everyone wants to be loyal and you know what loyalty means?  It means you will to do certain things for the good of your country.  You want to help them don't you Gary?  I know you're dedicated Gary.

Have you seen an ant eat its own head?