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Which Came First the Imagination or the Religion?

Started by Davin, May 14, 2010, 04:02:47 AM

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Davin

I made this post, and thought that it could be a good discussion:

All things can speculatively be linked to religion just like all things can speculatively be linked to sex. Can we say that Egyption, Greek or Norse mythology are how the people of those times were able to conceive god? The problem is that even if those people imagined a god different than the gods imagined by Christianity, Islam, Judaism... etc., they're still using their imagination. I think it's a farther imaginative leap to imagine the Christian god as Zeus than imagining that Zeus is the cause for lighting by hurling it from Olympus Mons. So the question is: how can you determine if the religion is the cause of imagination if all the beliefs in god(s) are so varied? Given that there is no reasonable evidence for any kind of god, the idea that imagination comes from god is a farther leap than saying religion comes from imagination.

Humans don't often come up with a completely original concept of anything, mostly we just build upon existing knowledge and concepts. We see something and say "what if it worked this way instead?" Even as a huge fan of Einstein, I doubt he would have developed the theory of relativity without the work of Newton (whom I'm also a huge fan), and Newton would have been farther behind if first mathematics hadn't been built up to point it was when he started... etc. So the idea that people build upon things isn't necessarily because of religion, in fact Galileo might have something different to say about imaginative discovery and religion. Galileo came up with his concept of how the planets move in spite of the religious teachings, not because of.

We use stories to instill and explain the importance of acting certain ways, not exclusively for that purpose but I'm going down a more specific road here. I hardly think that Dr. Seuss was in the business of writing religious stories, I would have to say that the stories are very secular. There is no mention of god, no mention of sin, just story explanations of good and bad things that happen to the characters in the stories because of the actions that they took (or sometimes didn't take). To imagine a world of imagination without religion, just look at all the things created without references to religion or religious principles.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

i_am_i

Quote from: "Davin"So the question is: how can you determine if the religion is the cause of imagination if all the beliefs in god(s) are so varied?

Okay, so that's the question. My answer is in the form of another question: who ever said that religion is the cause of imagination? That's a pretty weird idea. It's like saying that Beethoven's fifth symphony was the cause of him composing it.

It doesn't take much imagination at all to conclude that religion is the product of, well, the human imagination. I mean, what do you think? That religion was lying around waiting for someone to discover it, that discovery being the cause of human imagination? Weird!

Sorry, maybe I'm just completely missing your point.
Call me J


Sapere aude

Davin

Quote from: "i_am_i"Sorry, maybe I'm just completely missing your point.
I understand, it's an argument I recently heard again and was discussing. The argument was that things like art wouldn't exist if religion weren't there to inspire people and I was asked if I could think of a world without religion that retained all the imaginative things we now know. Examples are given of the renaissance artists who created, in my opinion, some beautiful pieces of art that were religiously themed.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Recusant

Quote from: "Davin"...renaissance artists who created, in my opinion, some beautiful pieces of art that were religiously themed.

Artists in the Renaissance were inspired to create religious works of art, all right-- by the money paid them by the church.  I think it would have been difficult, if not impossible in those days to be an entirely secular artist.  Back then the church was a huge power bloc in European society, in all senses, including politically.  You messed with the church at peril of your life, and artists were not excepted.
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Tank

I would suggest that imagination has it's origins firmly embedded in our ancestors ability to predict effect from cause, the better our ancestors became at that trick the better they survived. Imagination is just a highly developed ability to create fantastical versions of effect from cause. If this is so and one blends in the hierarchical nature of growing up, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that religion was the invention of imagination, not the other way around. Please do not take this post too seriously!
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Recusant

#5
On an even more basic level, imagination is an inherent characteristic of problem solving species.  I think that there's no question that imagination was in the "mental tool box" of our ancestors long long before we invented deities.

[youtube:32repq5n]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGKxuxk8a_0[/youtube:32repq5n]

Does a crow believe in gods?
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration — courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truth."
— H. L. Mencken


Davin

Yeah, I agree with you guys... I guess I was hoping for some kind of perspective from the (at least two semi-active) theists we have here.

Over thousands of years I can see how our ability to predict things could start to get distorted into some else. Like the big dark clouds usually bring rain (and wind and lightning), starts to become a single name for the dark clouds, then over time the dark clouds become (in their perception) and active agent that chooses when and where to strike with lightning... etc. Which would fit into what we find with all the ancient religions having a god for almost everything out of their control.

If only this weren't just my speculation, then it would really be something.

Quote from: "Recusant"Does a crow believe in gods?
Don't know, can't get any information like that out of them.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

hvargas

Imagination is a passed time of the MIND. It is a way for the Mind to entertain itself consciously and unconciously. Imagination is also a relative to Dreams. The question is which came first Imagination or the Religion. The answer is RELIGION. The GODS are all the same be they from whaterver culture the only thing that changes are the name given to them as they are pick up by another group. I think that one question which may replace the above is: which came first the mythology or the Religion. Now mythology is base on the Imagination for this is story telling around the camp-fire. The Orator, was great at it and able to convince its audience with his imagination to the extend as to having the audience actullay believing the stories to be real events. In this case the Imagination will arise first then the Religion will gradually take its forms. In other cases the Religion will always followed an IDEA. Ideas have their roots in IMAGINATIONS. Religion is not something imagine if the events that support the Religion are true. If I imagine a God and I built a Religion around such a God then the Imagination came first. If I claimed that an Angel was send by God and gave me a message to passed on to others, that will not be something imagine even if it was in a dream. There is a thin line between the two: Imagination and religion.

i_am_i

At some point in time a primitive humanoid must have imagined what he'd have if he sharpened the end of a big stick. He imagined, in his primitive way, himself killing an animal to eat, he imagined being able to better protect himself. His imagining led him to make a tool. Actually he made two tools, a spear and a sharpening device. Such a device would also come in handy for removing the flesh from the animal he'd killed with his spear, and then someone else imagined a good way to cook that flesh over a fire, and someone else imagined a way to take the animal's hide to make clothing and to use the animal's teeth and bones to make other tools and so on.

The human imagination was most likely working long before anyone took the time to come up with supernatural explanations for natural occurances. I imagine that our primitive ancestors were far too busy with keeping about the business of staying alive to spend much time wondering what it was all about.
Call me J


Sapere aude

Shine

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how religion could precede imagination.  Religion, at its most basic, is to endorse abstract concepts as reality.  Abstract concepts--by which I mean ideas completely devoid of any presence in the physical universe--are necessarily products of the imagination; in the absence of any physical presence, a description of an abstract concept can only be a conceptual endeavor.  Religious beliefs are therefore impossible without the possession of an imagination.

Davin

Quote from: "Shine"Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how religion could precede imagination.  Religion, at its most basic, is to endorse abstract concepts as reality.  Abstract concepts--by which I mean ideas completely devoid of any presence in the physical universe--are necessarily products of the imagination; in the absence of any physical presence, a description of an abstract concept can only be a conceptual endeavor.  Religious beliefs are therefore impossible without the possession of an imagination.
Don't even worry about it, I thought the topic was more interesting. Turns out, I'm not even interested any more. Maybe I should spam this on a bunch of Christian forums... not seriously, it just seems like something they would spam on us in the reverse.
Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.

Tank

Quote from: "Shine"Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see how religion could precede imagination.  Religion, at its most basic, is to endorse abstract concepts as reality.  Abstract concepts--by which I mean ideas completely devoid of any presence in the physical universe--are necessarily products of the imagination; in the absence of any physical presence, a description of an abstract concept can only be a conceptual endeavor.  Religious beliefs are therefore impossible without the possession of an imagination.
I would agree with what you have written, makes perfect sense to me.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Shine

Quote from: "Davin"Maybe I should spam this on a bunch of Christian forums... not seriously, it just seems like something they would spam on us in the reverse.

I agree, Davin, I think that this is the sentiment that religious people are using in the Argument from Beauty for God's existence.  Like you mentioned earlier in the thread, there is the tendency to attribute artistic works to divine influence and thereby credit creativity to God.  Taken to its logical end, attributing creativity to God would lead one to attribute the imagination itself to God and thereby suggest that the worship of God preceded the power of imagination.  I think that what you have done is better elucidate a theist's Argument from Beauty, or perhaps provided half of its refutation.  All that I did was carry the refutation all the way through.  (I think; I may be bungling the specifics of that argument.)

AntiAtheist

Religion! GOD created the heavens and the Earth in the beginning and gave man his mind. Why is it so hard for you atheists to understand something as simply as that.

Tank

Quote from: "AntiAtheist"Religion! GOD created the heavens and the Earth in the beginning and gave man his mind. Why is it so hard for you atheists to understand something as simply as that.
It's very easy to understand your claim, however there is no evidence to support you claim is there?
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.