When kids get in the middle

[Kylyssa]

Personally, I feel very strongly about church and state separation.  I find the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance to be one of the most offensive statements ever made to non-Christian Americans.  

The place where the Pledge and the unwanted associated declaration of Faith shows up most is in schools.  We're seeing children required to say the Pledge in their schools and the pressure to conform is high.  This is plainly wrong.  You can read my objections to the words "under God" in the Pledge here:

One Nation Under God...Get Your Atheist Ass Outta My Country!

However, parental objections to such practices will have unwanted effects on the children.  I question whether or not it's fair to expose children to the consequences of protesting religious incursions into schools.  

It seems to me a parent should weigh the possibility of repercussions against the benefits.  Perhaps the affected children should even have some say in the matter?  They could be asked what degree of repercussions they'd be willing to endure so the right thing can be done.

In some areas the repercussions would likely be very minimal but in other,  strongly conservative and religious communities children could face all degrees of backlash.  They could face a high degree of emotional abuse at the hands of their peers, teachers, and other members of the community.  They could even face violence.  

I suppose it comes down to what degree of danger you and your children are willing to tolerate for your beliefs.

[tacoma_kyle]

In high school, essentially through my Junior year I always said 'under god' just because and it really didnt bother me.

Through senior year, though, I just simply stopped saying it.

Another interesting bit. Kinda funny how I found this. My parents bought a house where I live, K-Falls, to remodel it as a investment. Well my dad was rummaging under the house and saw that there was old newspapers wrapped aroung the pipes for insulation.

They were dated 1939. I read a little, they were in good shape. A little bit I ran across, somethin talked about a 'new song' titled 'God Bless America.' Yeah, the one thats so common. I was thinkin WTF? That wouldnt surprise me at all that the song hasn't even been around a century.

I just checked online. Apparently made in 1938.

Funny how it turned out! (although not really...)

[susangail]

I've always said "under God" and I was angered when I heard people were trying to take that out of the Pledge. I was shocked to find out that it wasn't in the original and that not all the founding fathers were Christians (I hate that argument now). Now I really find that phrase offensive and I will not say it anymore when I say the Pledge.

And I do agree with you on the effects of all this on children. They don't understand it nor do they even care, I think, and parents can take it too far. From what I've read, a lot of parents do that kind of stuff so their children can benefit or so it won't influence them or something along those lines. I think there's a time and place to fight for what you believe but sometimes parents should just let their kids decide for themselves.

[LARA]

Great topic.  I'm mired neck deep in this stuff where I am at.  We went to a Veterans Day assembly at my daughter's school and there were several references to God, one specifically to the Abrahamic God (the kids words), a led prayer at the end, and after the pledge of allegiance, I heard more than on kid say "Amen".

It is so difficult for me to deal with this kind of out and out brainwashing at a federal and state supported school.  During the prayer, I held my head up and looked around to see who was brave enough to do the same.  I saw no one looking back at me.

The school has no business in religion.  It is not their place to teach it to the students, and I'm sure religious parents would object to them taking on this task as well.

Right now my state is trying to enact emergency legislation to protect students religious speech, "if any" (a quote from the bill) and give special speech privileges to student government officers, sports captains, etc.  so they can then put pressures on these students to lead prayers and preserve the whole state led religion thing they have going on down here.

I am so frustrated by the absolute bullshit that going on here.  I believe strongly in freedom of religion for everyone, but this means that in state supported areas, secularity has got to be preserved by those in authority.  

I have told my daughter everything I know that is appropriate for her age about science and evolution.  I have told her that she is free to pray or to not pray, as American, it's her right not to do so or to do so.  But the fact of the matter is, she is very young, impressionable and the fundies among us are not in any way interested in fair play, freedom of speech or America.  I would fight for their rights to free speech, but they would gag me in a nanosecond for so much as questioning their Bible if they had that power.

My parents let me choose my own religion for myself, and this one thing I think they did right.  I've taken a lot of time studying different religious beliefs on my own, and find myself very fond of Buddhism, but in the interest of Science and Freedom, I ally myself with Atheism.

I debate with myself on whether or not to fight, or how much to fight, but I think my daughter can take care of herself down here.

A while ago she was talking to me about a conversation she had with another student.  She said he told her rainbows are made by God.  She said "That's silly mom, rainbows are made by light passing through water."

[Loffler]

Far more satisfying is to let everyone in your class know you're an atheist and talk about it quite openly, then when you say the pledge say the "under god" part nice and confidently with a big fat smile, to really drive home the point that it's just words that carry zero meaning.

For bonus points, put yourself in a situation where you get to lead a group in prayer when half of them know damn well you're a huge atheist. Make it as sugary sweet as possible.

[Sophus]

I have often contemplated this. I believe it is wrong for these children to be brainwashed into whatever religion. When you grow up believing in a God that isn't real you develop what is classified as an irrational belief (belief based on conforming because of your parents faith). These children may choose to rebel against whatever religion later on in life and even identify as atheist but the sub-conscience still believes in a God thus truly altering how their life is lived. Therefore these people actually are theists. Simply not spiritual ones. This explains why they can be drawn back into religion via transgressional appeals. Their reasons for atheism were never verified as logical ones - the only valid answer for atheism, not bitter feelings toward God. You cannot claim to be an atheist and be angry at God at the same time. How can you feel hate for what does not exist in your mind? I am veering with my little theory but anyways....

 I would love nothing more than to expose the truth to the world. To hold the torch high as Robert Green Ingersoll put it. But the world is not ready for the truth.

The truth is God has been disproven in every possible way. Put the process of making this an axiom would be difficult due to intense scrutinizing. In the Religious realm the word atheism is often associated with the evil antagonist. They fail to even attempt to see things from our side. I wouldn't be surprised if these "Torch bearers" were killed by some religious extremist.

Besides... it keeps people in line and some people need religion because hope is necessary to the intelligent creature for survival. As long as they're happy....

[PatHayes]

Hey, the best way to increase atheism is to have religious instruction in schools. I grew up in England, which has a state Church and (at the time) compulsory religious instruction and morning prayers. I was an atheist at the age of 6 and never suffered any ill effects. I'm confident that if they are getting sanity at home, kids can handle nonsense at school.

Pat Hayes

[Sophus]

Well is spreading atheism necessarily a good thing? I believe some people need religion. Whether it be to keep them happy and sane (I know that's a paradox for religious fanatics) or to keep them in line.

[curiosityandthecat]

Well is spreading atheism necessarily a good thing? I believe some people need religion. Whether it be to keep them happy and sane (I know that's a paradox for religious fanatics) or to keep them in line.

Being sane isn't the same as being rational, so it's not really a paradox. A lot of religious folk need religious because they feel that's the only thing that guides them. They are moral vacuums without it. Hence why they distrust us so much.

[Asmodean]

Being sane isn't the same as being rational, so it's not really a paradox. A lot of religious folk need religious because they feel that's the only thing that guides them. They are moral vacuums without it. Hence why they distrust us so much.

Sheep. A flock of sheep.  

[Will]

Personally, I feel very strongly about church and state separation.  I find the addition of the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance to be one of the most offensive statements ever made to non-Christian Americans.

Even worse, it ruins the meter of the pledge completely. It was clearly written by fundamentalist lawmakers and not a literary artist, which I happen to find even more offensive.

The place where the Pledge and the unwanted associated declaration of Faith shows up most is in schools.  We're seeing children required to say the Pledge in their schools and the pressure to conform is high.  This is plainly wrong.  You can read my objections to the words "under God" in the Pledge here:

One Nation Under God...Get Your Atheist Ass Outta My Country!

However, parental objections to such practices will have unwanted effects on the children.  I question whether or not it's fair to expose children to the consequences of protesting religious incursions into schools.  

It seems to me a parent should weigh the possibility of repercussions against the benefits.  Perhaps the affected children should even have some say in the matter?  They could be asked what degree of repercussions they'd be willing to endure so the right thing can be done.

In some areas the repercussions would likely be very minimal but in other,  strongly conservative and religious communities children could face all degrees of backlash.  They could face a high degree of emotional abuse at the hands of their peers, teachers, and other members of the community.  They could even face violence.  

I suppose it comes down to what degree of danger you and your children are willing to tolerate for your beliefs.

I have always found that it's best not to shelter children too much from what they will eventually have to deal with as reasonable adults. Despite continued efforts, I doubt I'll be able to remove all of religion by the time my children are born and raised. They will have to deal with religion in their lives just as we have.

Following that conclusion, it seems better to ensure that children understand in no uncertain terms what religion is and why they may be forced to say some very silly things. It's also important that as they develop their understanding that they also start to put in place necessary defenses. A child should know when it's okay to say no. It's also important for us, the adults, to ensure that our children to not face impossible challenges. The emotional abuse you mention, especially if it's not being monitored (or even worse is reinforced) by teachers and faculty is totally unacceptable.

I keep going back in my mind to the idea of an atheist lobby, and atheist rights organizations. This paradox of organization where we gain strength but in gaining notoriety we also become a bigger target. I'll admit that organization is one way to deal with incapable or involved faculty. While organizations like the ACLU are great, they can only do so much.

[Wraitchel]

Well is spreading atheism necessarily a good thing? I believe some people need religion. Whether it be to keep them happy and sane (I know that's a paradox for religious fanatics) or to keep them in line.

I strongly disagree. War is caused by religion and greed. We can undermine greed by working for social justice. We can undermine religion by debunking the god myth.

"what puts a hundred thousand children in the sand?
belief can, belief can
what puts a folded flag inside his mother's hand?
belief can, belief can"      ---John Mayer

[DennisK]

Since I'm new to the atheist forums, I don't know what is out there in terms of networked and legal support for combatting god in schools.  Fear of persecution is understandable here in NC.  While speaking out at your own school can target you, how about having a network of people to act in the name of fairness on the school's behalf.  Prayers should not be supported in schools and that includes the added "under god" in the pledge.  It only reinforces that the Christian was is the right way.

Just think, if children actually knew that the overwhelming majority of our Founding Fathers did not believe in a personal god (this includes JC) and were adamant about the separation of church and state what that would do to the christian fundamentalists.  It would drastically change the landscape of religion in our country, IMO.

[curiosityandthecat]

Just think, if children actually knew that the overwhelming majority of our Founding Fathers did not believe in a personal god (this includes JC) and were adamant about the separation of church and state what that would do to the christian fundamentalists.  It would drastically change the landscape of religion in our country, IMO.

I don't think it would matter much. Their parents will just tell them that it's the secular left trying to distort history away from the true glory of god. Kids aren't stupid, but they will believe what they're told, especially if it's by the people who feed and clothe them. I just really don't think most people care all that much about the "real" history.

[DennisK]

I don't think it would matter much. Their parents will just tell them that it's the secular left trying to distort history away from the true glory of god. Kids aren't stupid, but they will believe what they're told, especially if it's by the people who feed and clothe them. I just really don't think most people care all that much about the "real" history.

Well, maybe it won't effect the fundamentalist's children immediately, but it may trickle down to them from those kids who are inquisitive.  Since so much respect is given in schools for the Founding Fathers's intellect and forethought (at least it was the case when I was in school many moons ago), one could make the leap that it would effect many little minds to know they were deists and not jesus lovers as is assumed from all the god rhetoric injected into government.  It might have the opposite effect of the current pledge drubbing god into our kids' lives.  Then maybe those who had a better understanding would give the creationist's kids some ribbing.  Who knows.