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When Nothing Created Everything

Started by Achronos, January 06, 2011, 12:21:38 AM

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LegendarySandwich

Quote from: "Achronos"
Quote from: "Stevil"Let's put things into perspective here

Most faiths have come up with Myths to explain everything because children want to know the answers to everything and adults want children to look at them as being all knowledgable.
Interesting, but I don't think there is any evidence the writers of say, The New Testament, created the myth of Christ because they all had some inquisitive children who needed some new myths to shut them up, so they got together to create a new one, the resurrection.  And then they left their families and children to tell this story to all the people clammering for a new story, and then ultimately died for something they knew they had made up. "Science" can really cause one to make up some humdinger stories!

Here's my perspective:

I agree, people would want to believe in God whether he existed or not.  I took probably 6 classes on Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell in college, the idea of mans need for "myth" is truly fascinating. And they would want to believe for a variety of reasons. This deep yearning, this spirituality, would cause people to create myths if there was not something real to fill the void.

But I am a Christian, because I believe Christ's resurrection is real.  It is not a myth.  I believe this for many reasons, but primarily for two:

1) Too many people would have known the story was a lie.  Almost immediately they were being killed for this lie.  Within 30 years of Christ's death the faith had spread so widely, it was persecuted specifically by Nero from 64 to 68 AD.  There are people who died in this persecution who would have known Christ, known the Disciples and Apostles, there are disciples and apostles who probably died in this persecution.  These "first-hand" believers, the ones who knew Christ, would have known they were being killed for a lie.  Yet no one recanted, no one said, "it's all a lie, this is how we did it."

2) In the Saints of the Church, while I do believe many of their accounts could very well be made up stories, I believe many of them and many of their miracles.  And I have seen miracles with my own eyes.  These to me are living testimonies of the miracle that took place over 2000 years ago.

As to the Bible.  It was written by men.  The only thing I believe, I'm no biblical scholar so I could be wrong, that was directly written from God's mouth and immediately written down, were the ten commandments.  Other than that, men.  Men who believed and were inspired by God, but were men nonetheless.  So the fact these fallible men wrote a testament of the journey from creation to Christ that sometimes seems odd, sometimes contradicting, sometimes like "sheepherders" is no surprise, in fact, to me it seems perfectly natural.

Human beings are flawed.  We kill people for stupid reasons. We do things to hurt ourselves and our families when we know they will hurt ourselves and our families.  We complain about our lot in life then spend all night wasting time on discussion boards!  We often think we are trying to listen to and follow God, when we aren't really interested in listening or following at all.  The fact the bible reflects all these problems of ours, just makes it more real and valid to me.

So anyway, these threads have been interesting.  Just thought now might be a good time to relate my view.  The idea that science can't prove God is as old as the bible itself, and the idea that faith can never become a science is just as ancient. We've yet to really say anything profound or new on any of these threads.

In the case of Christianity, it really comes down to one thing, do you believe God became man, died and rose from the dead, so we could become more like him and live forever. I believe it.

The people that the New Testament describes, like the disciples and such, who would have "known the story was a lie"? Probably made up too.

What miracles have you seen with your own eyes?

And I don't believe that science has nothing to say on the matter of God, though you're right that faith can't become science, as they're opposites.

And iSok believes that Mohamed was inspired by God and whatnot, and that you're wrong. Funny, that.

Achronos

Quote from: "LegendarySandwich"The people that the New Testament describes, like the disciples and such, who would have "known the story was a lie"? Probably made up too.

What miracles have you seen with your own eyes?

And I don't believe that science has nothing to say on the matter of God, though you're right that faith can't become science, as they're opposites.

And iSok believes that Mohamed was inspired by God and whatnot, and that you're wrong. Funny, that.
As I said, it's a historical fact Nero persecuted and killed Christians in 64 AD.  This is just 30 years or so after Christ would have died.  Are you saying you believe the people described in the New Testament were "made up"?  If so, the story had to be "made up" after 30 AD. And the lie had to have spread enough by 64 AD that "christians" were a threat to the Roman Emperor. The New testament list hundreds of names and people that would have all been based on lies, if it was made up.  That would have taken a lot of dedicated "liers", willing to die for their lie.  And you believe what, the did if for their children? ;)
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."
- St. Augustine

DJAkuma

Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?

Gawen

Quote from: "DJAkuma"Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?
He survived even though the zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve told him he shouldn't have, but the curve simply isn't curved enough. He doesn't take into consideration that the curve cannot possibly have all the information needed to make an accurate prediction or excuse. Therefore "Goddidit".
He also doesn't take into account how many times his mother may have thought about him in that way and there was never anything wrong with him....and how many times there was something wrong with him and his mother never knew.
The essence of the mind is not in what it thinks, but how it thinks. Faith is the surrender of our mind; of reason and our skepticism to put all our trust or faith in someone or something that has no good evidence of itself. That is a sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith is not.
"When you fall, I will be there" - Floor

Achronos

Quote from: "DJAkuma"Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?
As someone else who flys, your first sentence is so painfully laughable. Bailing out at 10 feet without a chute from a moving jet... and survived is enough for me. That's messed up. I've personally known people that did the same thing, with a chute, and didn't make it. These ejection seats have engineering charts associated with them. I know how they work, and I know how the human body works enough to know how certain forces will act upon it (G compression, highspeed winds, impacts, flailing, etc) ...The story of my mother is just icing.

Vengeful deity. Of course, to be wrong on the character of God would change many things, including the New Testament Jesus. It also would assume there is no personal (experiential) relationship with God and the faithful.

I've got a question.

DjAkuma, have you prayed recently? Seriously. Not the "God, give me a hamburger... You there...? SEE!!1!" kinda prayer, but a prayer as if to a benevolent Father. Like a "God, I don't have any faith, but I want to know you. I want to know your love and your peace. ...etc." kinda prayer? Not in the televangelist awkward kinda way. But mean it, not just read it or say it. Things happen when you truly open up, and you don't even have to tell anyone.

It's too bad this is all a joke to you, what I described was very real to me.  Sorry my posts weren't helpful to you.
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."
- St. Augustine

Achronos

Quote from: "Gawen"
Quote from: "DJAkuma"Ok, so you were snatched from the jaws of death in a way that can't be explained easily by our current understanding of science. By what method were you able to rule out the rather large number of deities it could have been, a benevolent ghost, aliens, steven hawking (he may have powers over space and time we can't begin to understand), superman, or Billy Mays?

Aren't you going to be kinda screwed if it was in fact another vengeful deity who was trying to prove himself to you and now you're giving all the credit to the wrong one?
He survived even though the zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve told him he shouldn't have, but the curve simply isn't curved enough. He doesn't take into consideration that the curve cannot possibly have all the information needed to make an accurate prediction or excuse. Therefore "Goddidit".
He also doesn't take into account how many times his mother may have thought about him in that way and there was never anything wrong with him....and how many times there was something wrong with him and his mother never knew.
Of course I considered all this, did you even read what I wrote?  Of do you automatically filter things to fit your story?

I specifically said the miracle part of the story wasn't my surviving(a miracle might have saved me, but it could conceivably be something else science and flight engineers don't understand yet), it was the call from my mother.  And I gave you the data, she's only made one call to me like that in her life and mine.  Of course my mother worries about me, and of course I've had things wrong with me in my life, but only once have I gotten a call like that from her, and it came at the exact time I was about to be ejected in the Zero Survivability zone. Before purusing a degree in Theology, I was a Math major with a minor in Statistics.  I did try to wrap my head around the probability of that many times and it was so astronomical as to be almost hard to comprehend.

I wanted to have a conversation, and I'm being very open.  You don't need to keep reverting to, "nah, hah, so you think Goddidit, you just are replacing ignorance with faith in leprechauns, Billy Mays, etc." This ultimately just stops the conversation, and make's people who might like to have genuine conversation with you stop. Assuming you are here for genuine conversation.  It appears more and more like you just want to play word games.

But I really don't need to say anymore.  Sorry again for stepping in.  It seems like from your response I'm just wasting your time.
"Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe."
- St. Augustine

McQ

Quote from: "Achronos"I ejected from a jet less than 10 feet from the ground.  My chute didn't fully deploy and I lived.  The man I was flying with died. I was flying on a Saturday, when I normally wouldn't have been, and no one in my family new I was flying that day.  I broke my back, and when I returned home, their was a message on my answering machine from my mother.  The time of the call would have been almost exactly when my crash was.  It said, "I don't know why, but I just got on my knees and prayed for you because I felt like you were in danger.  Call me."

I'll leave my surviving the crash even though I was outside the envelope of survivability to chance(an engineer from MD even visited me to explain I should be dead and to try to figure out how I survived on the Zero Survivablity part of the ejection curve), my mother's prayers might very well have had no effect.  But the fact she knew at the almost the exact moment of my crash to pray, when she didn't even know I was flying, and it was documented on the time code of my answering machine, to me that is miraculous.  Science has no answer for that, except that is was pure coincidence. And of course, I'm sure you'll think it's coincidence. Of course, I've never gotten a call like that from my mom before or since. And I used to be a Math major in College, I can't even fathom the probability of getting a message like that from my mom once in my entire life at the exact time I was in a burning jet.

Let's see the accident report. Otherwise, I call bullshit on your story, at least the "Zero Survivability" part. From one former military aviator to another.  ;)
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

Thumpalumpacus

Having been an Air Force firefighter, I second McQ's call of bullshit.  Given that you were dealing with a McDonnell-Douglas engneer, the seat in question would have been the ACES-II, which has zero-zero capability. (This means, readers, that it will provide a functioning chute even after ejection at 0 knots IAS at 0 altitude.)  Also, the ACES-II has strapping to haul in the limbs, minimizing the risk of amputation.  Furthermore, if you were ten feet from the ground, you were almost certainly either taking off or on final.  At either end of the runway, your IAS is not going to be much beyond 200knts if even that, which means you are not going to be having windblast issues. With Gs at 12-14, spinal compression can still be an issue, but nearly as much as the old Martin-Baker Widowmakers.

This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.
Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

Whitney

I had a bad feeling something bad was going to happen the days leading up to the Murrah Building bombing.
I have had other times in my life where bad feelings coincided with bath things happening.  Enough that I started to worry if I had that feeling.  Then had that feeling before needing to leave for an important plane trip and went anyway...a very uneventful smooth plane ride.

Our lives are sporadically visited by odd, sometimes almost unbelievable, coincidences; they only mean something if attempt to apply meaning to them.  Our minds are pattern seeking machines...we remember these few coincidences but forget all the times nothing odd happened.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

Is that so?  Perhaps next time you'd ought to actually research your claim before you make it.  (See also this google search.)

[Curious people should know, that link links to the last ten years of Class-A mishaps (which involve the total loss of the aircraft) in the US Air Force.]
Illegitimi non carborundum.

DJAkuma

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

Is that so?  Perhaps next time you'd ought to actually research your claim before you make it.  (See also this google search.)

[Curious people should know, that link links to the last ten years of Class-A mishaps (which involve the total loss of the aircraft) in the US Air Force.]

Some of those are pretty interesting, I like the one in 2000 when someone crashed a 3.7 million dollar UAV by essentially clicking the wrong menu.

DJAkuma

How did you go about ruling out telepathy as being the reason your mom called?

McQ

Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.
Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.
Elvis didn't do no drugs!
--Penn Jillette

AnimatedDirt

Quote from: "McQ"
Quote from: "AnimatedDirt"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"This claim could be more easily verified were you to be so kind as to provide a date and either a/c type or base at which the mishap occurred.
Having been on two aircraft (jet) mishap surveys when I was in the AF, I know for a fact that the details of the mishaps are kept almost (if not) Top Secret.  Unless you have some top secret clearance and a better reason than, "Some Christian claims his mother called him while he was flying on an Atheist Forum..." excuse, I'm doubtful you would gain any information.

As has been pointed out, this is simply not true. Aircraft mishaps are not classified Top Secret.
I said "almost".  It's a fact as it related to me...apparently they may go public at some point.  My two were bombing range related.  Maybe that's the difference, maybe not.  I don't keep up with it since, but that was my experience while I was in.  I'm still doubtful though.