Duality and Evolution

[SAbboushi]

There is a duality to our existence.  At an early age, we learn about the dualities of good / bad; light / dark; love / hate; and boy / girl.  And in school: positive / negative; addition / subtraction; action / reaction; and electron / proton.  And those far beyond my ability to comprehend are talking about the boson / fermion of supersymmetry (SUSY); or the “dual spaces” of the “Theory of Everything (TOE) which you can read about in Scientific America. [according to http://www.posttool.com/cisna/dual.html]

According to  http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evoluti ... ition.html: “This is a good working scientific definition of evolution; one that can be used to distinguish between evolution and similar changes that are not evolution: Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.“

Forgive me and a warning: I am about to get a bit graphic as I talk about male and female anatomy and function:

I am truly amazed at the duality of male and female.  And although I will now focus upon that of human beings, it is the duality of ALL types of males and females that amazes me, not just that of human beings.

Penis, vagina, puzzle pieces fitting together, lubrication, ejaculation, sperm, egg.  I am unable, using the theory of evolution, to explain how TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT “things” (man with penis, woman with vagina) can randomly and SEPARATELY evolve, where their SPECIFIC SHAPE AND FUNCTION are DESIGNED for the OTHER “thing” (vaginal lubrication designed for penis; ejaculation and sperm designed for egg).  Because without the complete design and proper functioning, there would be no procreation (at least as a result of penis/vagina/sperm/egg).  And so how could two “things” evolve to become male and female?  Where did the “male” come from before it had the capability to procreate using sperm from a penis?  Where did the “female” come from before it had the ability to procreate using a vagina and an egg?  How could these two “things” (Male and female) have, AT THE SAME TIME, evolved, SEPARATELY?   Using the definition above where the “result” is “heritable changes in a population spread over many generations”: this may explain OTHER changes that have occurred within the human species, but so far, I am unable to see how it can account for the FIRST male and and FIRST female: without the ability to procreate in the manner that we do, I don’t see HOW it would have been possible for there to be “heritable changes in a population spread over many generations” to result in the FIRST male and female.  To me, this is much like the “chicken / egg” question of “which came first?”

NOTE: I do not consider the manner (above) in which I reference anatomy and function to be of a sexually suggestive nature and hope that it does not conflict with the rules of this forum.  But I am not the moderator of this forum - and so I will understand (although I would be disappointed) should this post be censored by the moderator.

If someone can EXPLAIN the manner in which evolution could have created the first male and female of a species - IN THE CONTEXT of the difficulties that I have cited above, I would be MOST grateful!

With Regards-
Sam

[Asmodean]

There is a duality to our existence.  At an early age, we learn about the dualities of good / bad; light / dark; love / hate; and boy / girl.  And in school: positive / negative; addition / subtraction; action / reaction; and electron / proton.

You just disregarded the shades of gray that exist in every case. Sometimes argueably so, but still. Electrons and protons, for instance. There is a neutron inbetween. Good and bad are divided by many denominations of neutrality, as love and hate are divided by as many denominations of indifference. Light and dark are also opposites, yet what of the shadows that are inbetween?

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.“

To put it simply, yes.

I am truly amazed at the duality of male and female.  And although I will now focus upon that of human beings, it is the duality of ALL types of males and females that amazes me, not just that of human beings.

Hermaphrodites amaze me more, but that's another story.

Penis, vagina, puzzle pieces fitting together, lubrication, ejaculation, sperm, egg.  I am unable, using the theory of evolution, to explain how TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT “things” (man with penis, woman with vagina) can randomly and SEPARATELY evolve, where their SPECIFIC SHAPE AND FUNCTION are DESIGNED for the OTHER “thing” (vaginal lubrication designed for penis; ejaculation and sperm designed for egg).

In short words, my explanation is: long years of evolution and spontaneous mutation. Long years being the key. Look at the way some non-mammal species do it. There are no pieces fitting nicely together in many cases of reptiles, fish, snails and the like. They are amnaging just fine as they are and therefor are not more evolved than they are.

Why we developed the way we did in the first place is an overall good question, but the complexity of it all can be explained with the time it took for us to get where we are. Life on Earth is about what? 3.6 billion years old? While the first organism ever to gestate is not even one billion years old.

Because without the complete design and proper functioning, there would be no procreation (at least as a result of penis/vagina/sperm/egg).  And so how could two “things” evolve to become male and female?  Where did the “male” come from before it had the capability to procreate using sperm from a penis?  Where did the “female” come from before it had the ability to procreate using a vagina and an egg?

They evolved from hermaphrodites... Duh!  

How could these two “things” (Male and female) have, AT THE SAME TIME, evolved, SEPARATELY?

Symbiosis. They adapted to the environment and to each other to best perform their duties.

Using the definition above where the “result” is “heritable changes in a population spread over many generations”: this may explain OTHER changes that have occurred within the human species, but so far, I am unable to see how it can account for the FIRST male and and FIRST female: without the ability to procreate in the manner that we do, I don’t see HOW it would have been possible for there to be “heritable changes in a population spread over many generations” to result in the FIRST male and female.  To me, this is much like the “chicken / egg” question of “which came first?”

First came single-celled organisms that multiplied by dividing themselves. As they became more complex, some evolved into the first hermaphrodites. As they became more complex, some evolved into the first gender-divided species. Or rather, to a mix of the two first, where one organism carried both reproductive organs, but required another to multiply. Like some snails do today.

NOTE: I do not consider the manner (above) in which I reference anatomy and function to be of a sexually suggestive nature and hope that it does not conflict with the rules of this forum.  But I am not the moderator of this forum - and so I will understand (although I would be disappointed) should this post be censored by the moderator.

I think it's quite alright. nothing here that any self-respecting ten year old has not seen and heard. (at least as far as anatomy is concerned)

If someone can EXPLAIN the manner in which evolution could have created the first male and female of a species - IN THE CONTEXT of the difficulties that I have cited above, I would be MOST grateful!

Again, long time, increasing complexity that made simple multiplying by splitting oneself in half impossible and many many links inbetween.

[Will]

This seems to biol down to: why are there genders? This is actually incredibly simple.

Asexual organisms can only survive if the organism from which they came had the right traits. Any changes are rare and are caused by mutation. Sexual organisms get genetic material from myriad sources combining in many different ways, speeding up the process of natural selection. The faster a species has natural selection, the faster they can adapt.

[myleviathan]

AT THE SAME TIME, evolved, SEPARATELY?

Good post. That's one to wrap your mind around while sipping a cup of coffee before going to work.

Male and female genders didn't evolve seperately. They evolved together, in a myriad of species. From sperm-spraying, dioecius (they can be male or female) jellyfish all the way up the chain of life.

Maybe the problem is your premise that males and females are somehow opposite. We're far more similar than different.

[SAbboushi]

Thanks for your posts.

Asmodean:
>> They evolved from hermaphrodites... Duh!  
Thanks for referring me to hermaphrodites - I will look into that.  I could have done without the "Duh!" part though  

Lot of useful info from all.  Thanks

[Asmodean]

Thanks for your posts.

Asmodean:
>> They evolved from hermaphrodites... Duh!  
Thanks for referring me to hermaphrodites - I will look into that.  I could have done without the "Duh!" part though  

Lot of useful info from all.  Thanks

Well, actually it's a lot more complex than that (evolution is not a simple process), but in very short words, that's the idea.

Oh, and don't mind my duh-s, it's just a part of my... style, for the lack of a better word.