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There is also the shroud of turin, which verifies Jesus in a new way than other evidences.

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Why God?

Started by Tank, September 04, 2011, 10:37:08 AM

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Tank

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 09, 2016, 02:34:43 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2016, 08:26:42 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on October 08, 2016, 02:59:05 PM
Quote from: Lekatt on November 18, 2014, 06:25:32 PM
I believe everyone thinks for themselves. Everyone chooses what he will believe and not believe

Not if they get you young enough
So true.

I can't agree with this.  I was churched from day one and it still didn't take, despite my own best efforts to co-operate.  I think we tend to under-estimate the number of people who would have chosen religion anyway, even if they hadn't been raised in one, and are simply comfortable with what they know.
Generalisations are generally wrong.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Essie Mae

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 09, 2016, 02:34:43 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 08, 2016, 08:26:42 PM
Quote from: Essie Mae on October 08, 2016, 02:59:05 PM
Quote from: Lekatt on November 18, 2014, 06:25:32 PM
I believe everyone thinks for themselves. Everyone chooses what he will believe and not believe

Not if they get you young enough
So true.

I can't agree with this.  I was churched from day one and it still didn't take, despite my own best efforts to co-operate.  I think we tend to under-estimate the number of people who would have chosen religion anyway, even if they hadn't been raised in one, and are simply comfortable with what they know.

I don't know Books, I was genuinely and deeply frightened into the kingdom, there really wasn't much comfort there, and I always, always felt that I didn't measure up. Whatever my reasons (not that reason came into it), for staying for nearly 60 years, perhaps it was a perverse way of punishing myself for not being good enough. Anyway, the shackles are gone now and life is good in spite of not coming out to my family, who are still there, ironically because of me.
Hell is empty and all the devils are here. Wm Shakespeare


Sandra Craft

Quote from: Essie Mae on October 20, 2016, 11:23:22 PM
I don't know Books, I was genuinely and deeply frightened into the kingdom, there really wasn't much comfort there, and I always, always felt that I didn't measure up. Whatever my reasons (not that reason came into it), for staying for nearly 60 years, perhaps it was a perverse way of punishing myself for not being good enough. Anyway, the shackles are gone now and life is good in spite of not coming out to my family, who are still there, ironically because of me.

I'm not denying that for some of us religion isn't a fit, or may be just an unthinking habit but I do think we tend to disregard the number of people for whom it is comforting simply because that isn't our experience.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Essie Mae

Well that's true. I have met 2 or 3  people n the past who have said quite openly that they believed because they wanted to. One of them also said she didn't believe we could 'have come from monkeysn' because she didn't want to.
Hell is empty and all the devils are here. Wm Shakespeare


Asmodean

That's stupid. Also, those who believe that the consensus among biologists is that h. sapiens sapiens originated from monkeys are mockably ignorant if they happen to be over the age of like... Twelve. Still, as long as that person does not try to inflict her non-relationship with facts on others, I'm disinclined to care.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Icarus

Quote from: Asmodean on October 21, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
That's stupid. Also, those who believe that the consensus among biologists is that h. sapiens sapiens originated from monkeys are mockably ignorant if they happen to be over the age of like... Twelve. Still, as long as that person does not try to inflict her non-relationship with facts on others, I'm disinclined to care.

The Asmo has once again gone to the meaty center of the subject. Who knew that a lump of clay could be so shrewd and insightful?

Asmodean

He is, but in this case, He's simply implying that some people are just dumb to a greater degree than necessary, but that their stupidity is between them and their god unless they try to rub some off on His insightfully-shrewd rump.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Ecurb Noselrub

Since I don't know what another person's experience is, I'm disinclined to judge.

Asmodean

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 22, 2016, 02:04:03 AM
Since I don't know what another person's experience is, I'm disinclined to judge.
Does their experience matter? I did define a reasonably objective standard of measurement for the purpose of this discussion; the basic understanding of the evolutionary tree of h. sapiens sapiens in accordance with the standing scientific consensus. An individual's experience in this regard does not indicate whether or not they are stupid. What it does is answer the question why they are the way they are. My point is; you can measure and compare stupidity. As such, you don't need to get all judgemental when saying that someone or something is stupid, nor do you need to account for variables outside the scope of the question "is this shit stupid?"

Of course, one can delve into the murky waters of philosophy and ask whether a person holding a stupid view is therefore stupid, but I don't really like philosophy, so I limit myself to saying that yes, in that particular regard, they are.

...

That is, if that is what your reply is directed at. If you are talking about me judging someone's believing what they want to believe as a stupid position to hold, well... I can justify that too, with high degree of objectivity. I don't think that's necessary though, given no causal link between what a person wants and what is.

If your reply is to someone else entirely, then... carry on.  ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Essie Mae on October 21, 2016, 08:18:45 PM
Well that's true. I have met 2 or 3  people n the past who have said quite openly that they believed because they wanted to. One of them also said she didn't believe we could 'have come from monkeysn' because she didn't want to.

Yeah, I've met a lot of people who have trouble with the idea of humans being primates rather than a special creation, and who honestly just do not understand evolution beyond the level of a Chick tract.  What gets me is these same people have no trouble seeing the family resemblance between a donkey and a zebra.

But I know that's asking too much -- from what I've seen, belief rarely has anything to do with intelligence or logic, it answers purely emotional needs.  Needs some of us do not have, or do not need answered in that way.  But for other people, many other people, it appears to give them exactly what they need.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Asmodean

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2016, 03:56:43 AM
[Belief] answers purely emotional needs.  Needs some of us do not have, or do not need answered in that way.  But for other people, many other people, it appears to give them exactly what they need.
:headscratch: The Asmo is going to go do some of that philosophy He dislikes regarding that there.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Asmodean on October 22, 2016, 04:47:51 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2016, 03:56:43 AM
[Belief] answers purely emotional needs.  Needs some of us do not have, or do not need answered in that way.  But for other people, many other people, it appears to give them exactly what they need.
:headscratch: The Asmo is going to go do some of that philosophy He dislikes regarding that there.

Well, I'm definitely sorry now.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Asmodean

Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
Well, I'm definitely sorry now.
Why?! The Asmo does enjoy puzzling out such things, then figuring out if His reasoning was correct. That last bit does not rely on philosophy, so it's perfectly acceptable.  :)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on July 25, 2013, 08:18:52 PM
In Asmo's grey lump,
wrath and dark clouds gather force.
Luxembourg trembles.

Sandra Craft

Quote from: Asmodean on October 22, 2016, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 22, 2016, 10:41:45 AM
Well, I'm definitely sorry now.
Why?! The Asmo does enjoy puzzling out such things, then figuring out if His reasoning was correct. That last bit does not rely on philosophy, so it's perfectly acceptable.  :)

I hate philosophy, it's so rarely worth any time or effort and I'm sorry to cause it in anyone.  Also, I feel some tedious questions may be coming my way.
Sandy

  

"Life is short, and it is up to you to make it sweet."  Sarah Louise Delany

Ecurb Noselrub

Quote from: Asmodean on October 22, 2016, 03:14:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on October 22, 2016, 02:04:03 AM
Since I don't know what another person's experience is, I'm disinclined to judge.
Does their experience matter? I did define a reasonably objective standard of measurement for the purpose of this discussion; the basic understanding of the evolutionary tree of h. sapiens sapiens in accordance with the standing scientific consensus. An individual's experience in this regard does not indicate whether or not they are stupid. What it does is answer the question why they are the way they are. My point is; you can measure and compare stupidity. As such, you don't need to get all judgemental when saying that someone or something is stupid, nor do you need to account for variables outside the scope of the question "is this shit stupid?"

Of course, one can delve into the murky waters of philosophy and ask whether a person holding a stupid view is therefore stupid, but I don't really like philosophy, so I limit myself to saying that yes, in that particular regard, they are.

...

That is, if that is what your reply is directed at. If you are talking about me judging someone's believing what they want to believe as a stupid position to hold, well... I can justify that too, with high degree of objectivity. I don't think that's necessary though, given no causal link between what a person wants and what is.

If your reply is to someone else entirely, then... carry on.  ;)

I was commenting more on Books' post about people's experience of religion.  I agree that if something is objectively, factually wrong people should be called on it.  Not sure that makes them stupid - just wrong.  But religious experience falls somewhere outside the realm of those things capable of purely objective analysis.