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Community => Life As An Atheist => Topic started by: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM

Title: How will atheism...
Post by: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
How will atheism fill the huge void it will create when it replaces theism?
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Bluenose on July 26, 2018, 11:28:59 AM
I find so much to wonder at in the natural world and universe that, for me, the question never arose.  When I realised that I simply did not believe any of the BS my main feeling was one of relief.  I hadn't realised just how much of a burden trying to twist my mind to accept things that are patently absurd until I lifted the burden.  How this might work for people who like to have all their answers already answered for them, no thought required, I have no idea.  I suspect that what will eventually happen is that religion will gradually fade away.  Today, more and more of the young people are leaving religion behind.  The time will come when the last believer dies and finally the world will be free from the vicious yolk of magical thinking.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 26, 2018, 11:46:01 AM
Well, doubt that we will be around when that era dawns!

But I sort of go with Bluenose, education in the natural beauty  of the Universe (including humans of course) - plus an understanding that it also contains death and destruction, some of which is unavoidable but a lot of which is by our own agency and therefore, possibly, avoidable.

I am going to suggest that humanism will gain members but they may be "nominal", not consciously "practicing" but, sort of, following a set of rules that their education offers them about citizenship and ethics. I hope.

But then, could be just a human generated apocalypse?
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Bad Penny II on July 26, 2018, 02:21:07 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
How will atheism fill the huge void it will create when it replaces theism?

Is there going to be an overnight revolution, yesterday religion today rationalism?
Atheism isn't really an "ism"
Religion is the/an opium of the people
I don't think rationalism serves as an opiate, maybe they'll just switch to opiates.
Anyway, whatever, people need their medication.

If theism passes atheism/rationalism will pick up a percentage but most will just take up with some other nonsense, maybe-perhaps-what-doIknow.

It's not as if religion is a large part of the nominally religious persons life anyway.

I think the question is dodgy and I expect there is a name for its particular kind of dodgy but so far I haven't bothered getting the labels straight.  I know dodgy when I see it though.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: No one on July 26, 2018, 05:37:52 PM
As long as there are humans inhabiting this pale bite dot Tank, rationalism will never replace irrationality.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Tank on July 26, 2018, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: No one on July 26, 2018, 05:37:52 PM
As long as there are humans inhabiting this pale bite dot Tank, rationalism will never replace irrationality.

I agree. But it doesn't have to be total or absolute to be infinitely better.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Icarus on July 27, 2018, 12:41:28 AM
Somewhere , maybe on HAF, I came across an assessment of which country was the least religious.  At the top of the list....as I recall (or not recall) the least religious was the Czeck republic????   Maybe it was Hungary. 

The demise of religion is a slow process here in the US.  I live across the street from a very large, opulent and well kept Baptist church whose attendance has been declining for several years.  The church has now been closed and the facilities will be used for a school.  I suspect that the school is a faith based one.   Across town there is a magnificent old Presbyterian church that has held forth for nigh on 100 years.  It is now closed because of declining attendance. I have mixed emotions about those developments.

I have almost zero tolerance for the narrow minded pronouncements of the Jesus people but I also have some compassion for them.  That their churches are failing is a sad time for them .  As much as I am opposed to the general insistent teaching of the churches, I do have some compassion for the members who have lost their spiritual anchor.

Then there are the mega churches like the one in Houston, operated by a man who I believe is a shameless charlatan, Joel O'steen.  His church has weekly attendance in the tens of thousands.  The traffic congestion caused by the attendees, and the necessary regulation thereof by the police force is a costly proposition. Never the less it is an expense absorbed by the tax payers, most of whom have no connection to that church.

I reckon that it will be a thousand years before our general population has dislodged themselves from the religions that are so dear to them.  The part that concerns me most is that the least educated of the populace will be the last ones to go.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 27, 2018, 03:04:07 AM
There are several graphs available online that offer the idea that a low national IQ correlates to high religiosity. This is typical:

(https://imgur.com/9875c2b.jpg)

http://www.humanreligions.info/intelligence.html

Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: joeactor on July 27, 2018, 01:29:51 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
How will atheism fill the huge void it will create when it replaces theism?

"Replace" implies it has a competing set of ideas/values/whatever. I view it more as the vacuum that is created when belief in a god is removed. In that way it's not truly a replacement.

If suddenly all belief in god and all religions were gone, that wouldn't imply any coordinated school of thought or belief that replaces it. It also doesn't necessarily mean a rise in intelligence.

To truly replace theism, you'd need a set of core values and beliefs, and the desire to spread them to others. So... a religion of atheism?
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 27, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: joeactor on July 27, 2018, 01:29:51 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
How will atheism fill the huge void it will create when it replaces theism?

"Replace" implies it has a competing set of ideas/values/whatever. I view it more as the vacuum that is created when belief in a god is removed. In that way it's not truly a replacement.

If suddenly all belief in god and all religions were gone, that wouldn't imply any coordinated school of thought or belief that replaces it. It also doesn't necessarily mean a rise in intelligence.

To truly replace theism, you'd need a set of core values and beliefs, and the desire to spread them to others. So... a religion of atheism?

Good ponts, Joe. But this is where I think humanism, or something like it could fill the void, without the prescriptive or dogmatic elements. There are obvious differences as to how humanists/atheists and theists view the natural world and the origins of morals and ethics, but humanists, unlike pure atheists (so far as I know), voluntarily subscribe to a set of "rules" that imply a duty to humanity and were actually agreed internationally. This makes humanism a kind of "belief". Those who have thought enough about what they do and do not believe in to consciously declare as atheists have almost certainly adopted a personally worked out version of those "rules".  This is as opposed to the "I don't believe in nothing" brigade and the, "I just wanna do my own thing without this god stuff" types.

Basic "rules":

There are no supernatural beings.
The material universe is the only thing that exists.
Science provides the only reliable source of knowledge about this universe.
We only live this life - there is no after-life, and no such thing as reincarnation.
Human beings can live ethical and fulfilling lives without religious beliefs.
Human beings derive their moral code from the lessons of history, personal experience, and thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/humanism.shtml

I doubt that few here wiuld have much argument with that but, perhaps, do not wish to subscribe to the "humanist" label.

Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: joeactor on July 27, 2018, 07:10:04 PM
Quote from: Dave on July 27, 2018, 03:01:21 PM
Quote from: joeactor on July 27, 2018, 01:29:51 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
How will atheism fill the huge void it will create when it replaces theism?

"Replace" implies it has a competing set of ideas/values/whatever. I view it more as the vacuum that is created when belief in a god is removed. In that way it's not truly a replacement.

If suddenly all belief in god and all religions were gone, that wouldn't imply any coordinated school of thought or belief that replaces it. It also doesn't necessarily mean a rise in intelligence.

To truly replace theism, you'd need a set of core values and beliefs, and the desire to spread them to others. So... a religion of atheism?

Good ponts, Joe. But this is where I think humanism, or something like it could fill the void, without the prescriptive or dogmatic elements. There are obvious differences as to how humanists/atheists and theists view the natural world and the origins of morals and ethics, but humanists, unlike pure atheists (so far as I know), voluntarily subscribe to a set of "rules" that imply a duty to humanity and were actually agreed internationally. This makes humanism a kind of "belief". Those who have thought enough about what they do and do not believe in to consciously declare as atheists have almost certainly adopted a personally worked out version of those "rules".  This is as opposed to the "I don't believe in nothing" brigade and the, "I just wanna do my own thing without this god stuff" types.

Basic "rules":

There are no supernatural beings.
The material universe is the only thing that exists.
Science provides the only reliable source of knowledge about this universe.
We only live this life - there is no after-life, and no such thing as reincarnation.
Human beings can live ethical and fulfilling lives without religious beliefs.
Human beings derive their moral code from the lessons of history, personal experience, and thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/types/humanism.shtml

I doubt that few here wiuld have much argument with that but, perhaps, do not wish to subscribe to the "humanist" label.

Yes... I could see that supplanting theism. Might take a while to make a significant dent, but it could make for a more sane, kind world. (at least one would hope)
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: No one on July 29, 2018, 06:21:18 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
But it doesn't have to be total or absolute to be infinitely better.

Point taken. However, humankind has a dire desire to be loved. That, coupled with their grotesque, delusional, over valued self worth, essentially assures a wish granting sky daddy remains an element of the human ethos for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Tank on July 29, 2018, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: No one on July 29, 2018, 06:21:18 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
But it doesn't have to be total or absolute to be infinitely better.

Point taken. However, humankind has a dire desire to be loved. That, coupled with their grotesque, delusional, over valued self worth, essentially assures a wish granting sky daddy remains an element of the human ethos for the foreseeable future.

I think you are right. The initial aim should be to separate mythology from politics and give evidence based research a bigger voice in decision making.   
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 29, 2018, 08:46:46 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 29, 2018, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: No one on July 29, 2018, 06:21:18 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
But it doesn't have to be total or absolute to be infinitely better.

Point taken. However, humankind has a dire desire to be loved. That, coupled with their grotesque, delusional, over valued self worth, essentially assures a wish granting sky daddy remains an element of the human ethos for the foreseeable future.

I think you are right. The initial aim should be to separate mythology from politics and give evidence based research a bigger voice in decision making.
Some years ago, along with about 600 others, I sent a copy of a book on using science in decision making (written specially for this purpose)  to my MP. Never got an acknowledgement. It never got mentioned in the press that I noticed then.

Later: the book, by Mark Henderson, was called "The Geek Manifesto" and I eventually found this interesting site.

https://duncan.hull.name/2012/06/18/david-rutley/

Seems there has been a recent similar scheme to educate our MPs about legal matters.

Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Tank on July 29, 2018, 09:07:10 AM
Quote from: Dave on July 29, 2018, 08:46:46 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 29, 2018, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: No one on July 29, 2018, 06:21:18 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
But it doesn't have to be total or absolute to be infinitely better.

Point taken. However, humankind has a dire desire to be loved. That, coupled with their grotesque, delusional, over valued self worth, essentially assures a wish granting sky daddy remains an element of the human ethos for the foreseeable future.

I think you are right. The initial aim should be to separate mythology from politics and give evidence based research a bigger voice in decision making.
Some years ago, along with about 600 others, I sent a copy of a book on using science in decision making (written specially for this purpose)  to my MP. Never got an acknowledgement. It never got mentioned in the press that I noticed then.

Later: the book, by Mark Henderson, was called "The Geek Manifesto" and I eventually found this interesting site.

https://duncan.hull.name/2012/06/18/david-rutley/

Seems there has been a recent similar scheme to educate our MPs about legal matters.

Did the same thing with The God Delusion some years ago. Again no acknowledgement of receipt.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: No one on July 29, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
The initial aim should be to separate mythology from politics and give evidence based research a bigger voice in decision making.

You have high hopes. People aren't that smart.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Tank on July 29, 2018, 10:34:07 AM
Quote from: No one on July 29, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
The initial aim should be to separate mythology from politics and give evidence based research a bigger voice in decision making.

You have high hopes. People aren't that smart.
I do have high opinions of humanity and I'm often disappointed.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 29, 2018, 11:10:28 AM
Quote from: Tank on July 29, 2018, 10:34:07 AM
Quote from: No one on July 29, 2018, 09:56:49 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Tank:
The initial aim should be to separate mythology from politics and give evidence based research a bigger voice in decision making.

You have high hopes. People aren't that smart.
I do have high opinions of humanity and I'm often disappointed.

As a mob (with all that label implies), and especially a religious mob, humanity can be horrendous. As a noisy, couldn't-care-ess neighbour humans can be very anoying.

Yet, so often, in big charity drives and charity runs etc, we prove that we can express a sort of unified empathy even in large numbers. Also I have heard of so many individual acts involving from bravery to simple friendliness towards a stranger that, on the whole, I don't mind being a member of the race.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: chimp3 on July 30, 2018, 01:30:08 AM
What will replace religion? As what? A source of inspiration, community, morality? How about science, art, literature, music, dance, philosophy, reason, debate, law, film, cuisine, forums, salons, wine, sports, block parties, holidays, tea with Mom, the eventual collision with the Andromeda galaxy. Just about anything can replace religion.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Bluenose on July 30, 2018, 04:58:49 AM
Quote from: chimp3 on July 30, 2018, 01:30:08 AM
What will replace religion? As what? A source of inspiration, community, morality? How about science, art, literature, music, dance, philosophy, reason, debate, law, film, cuisine, forums, salons, wine, sports, block parties, holidays, tea with Mom, the eventual collision with the Andromeda galaxy. Just about anything can replace religion.

Actually, this makes sense.  I found in my own life that when I rejected religion for the BS it undoubtedly is, that science provided a much better explanation for the world around me.  Sure, sometimes the science answer is "we don't know yet", but how is that a bad thing?  It means there is more to find out, what a great opportunity!  At no time have I had to lose my sense of wonder at the world, the universe or the myriad interrelated intricacies of nature.  On the contrary, my sense of the numinous is all the greater the more I understand how things really work.  From my current perspective, the religious viewpoint seems really rather childish.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 30, 2018, 10:01:48 AM
Quote from: Bluenose on July 30, 2018, 04:58:49 AM
Quote from: chimp3 on July 30, 2018, 01:30:08 AM
What will replace religion? As what? A source of inspiration, community, morality? How about science, art, literature, music, dance, philosophy, reason, debate, law, film, cuisine, forums, salons, wine, sports, block parties, holidays, tea with Mom, the eventual collision with the Andromeda galaxy. Just about anything can replace religion.

Actually, this makes sense.  I found in my own life that when I rejected religion for the BS it undoubtedly is, that science provided a much better explanation for the world around me.  Sure, sometimes the science answer is "we don't know yet", but how is that a bad thing?  It means there is more to find out, what a great opportunity!  At no time have I had to lose my sense of wonder at the world, the universe or the myriad interrelated intricacies of nature.  On the contrary, my sense of the numinous is all the greater the more I understand how things really work.  From my current perspective, the religious viewpoint seems really rather childish.

Hmm, not so sure about this. It may depend on how many people are "inherrently" attracted towards science etc anyway. Bluenose, were you previously attracted towards science before your enlightenment, then did science appear to offer explanations your "religious subconscious" was blocking or was it a sudden, blinding revelation tgat science exidted?

There have geen many attempts (still are) to fet kids (especially girls) interested in science in the UK and I often wonder if this attracts kids who woukd not otherwise consider it as a career path, or even an approach to life. Trying not to use the "S" word perhaps fewer get the deep down, maybe more than merely emotional, feedback from the arts and science than belief in the supernatural appears to provide for billions of people.

For the arts and sciences to get near the "popularity" of religion, to affect the way people behave in daily life (ignoring, for the moment, that most of the overtly religious nations are also the most violent) is a big ask. The (gotta use it) "spritual" values are not quite the same IMHO. I can still feel that same inner boost reading about the famous 1911 Solvay Conference* that I did the first time about 40 years ago. But then I am a bit of a geek. There aren't many geeks per million peeps out there!

For the arts to replace religion you have to increase the geek:peep ratio tremendously, almost nake arts and sciences some kind of "indoctrination" in education. The next thing, knowing human nature, would be the formation of political parties, the "Artists" and the "Scientists" to promote and fund those fields and maybe conflict, even wars, between the two factions! Let alone "sectarian" conflict between such as chemists vs physicists or classisists vs modernists.

In Veronica Roth's "Divergent" trilogy post apocalypse Chicago society divides into four factions, plus the "factionless", according to their natures: selfless/caring, scientific/candid, confident/aggressive, peaceful/amiable. But, in this case, the scientific faction, the "Erudites"make a bid for overall power, using the aggressives as their "weapons". Human nature wins again.

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvay_Conference
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: No one on July 30, 2018, 10:52:08 AM
Great thing about science, it doesn't care what you think.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 30, 2018, 11:34:56 AM
Quote from: No one on July 30, 2018, 10:52:08 AM
Great thing about science, it doesn't care what you think.

I like that, No one!

Think I will rephrase it as, "The facts don't care what you think", for non-scientific applications.

Unfortunately we have to deal with what humans think and how they (mis)use science and facts to validate or legitimise their opinions, biases and prejudices.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Bluenose on July 30, 2018, 11:52:57 AM
I think the problem goes deeper than teaching science versus dogma.  I think the biggest problem is that our education system seems primarily concerned with teaching students what to think rather than how to think. Of course, how that is done has to be different for each age group and it is much harder than the current system which is largely set and forget.  Engaging students and helping them learn how to enquire into things, whether they be science, maths, history or the arts or any other field of learning/knowledge is not easy.  In fact it is damn hard.  All the more reason why we need to increase efforts to do this.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 30, 2018, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: Bluenose on July 30, 2018, 11:52:57 AM
I think the problem goes deeper than teaching science versus dogma.  I think the biggest problem is that our education system seems primarily concerned with teaching students what to think rather than how to think. Of course, how that is done has to be different for each age group and it is much harder than the current system which is largely set and forget.  Engaging students and helping them learn how to enquire into things, whether they be science, maths, history or the arts or any other field of learning/knowledge is not easy.  In fact it is damn hard.  All the more reason why we need to increase efforts to do this.

A few schools here teach critical thinking but, mostly, the state school syllabus is stuffed with what the government think kids should learn. I was not entirely happy with the academy system but it does give schools a chance to explore other subjects. However, reasonably I suppose, the emphasis is on the basics for uni entry or vocational subjects. Then the unis have to spend a year bringing the less lucky students up to intellectual par. In my six months in uni (2005-6) it was fairly evident which students had come from grammar or private schools or "6th form colleges" and which from secondary modern/comprehensive state schools. The use of language, vocabulary etc was one clue, the approach to work and assignments another, a lot more mutual advice giving and support in the latter group - less confidence.

We need bashers and benders on the shop floor as much as thinkers in R&D, but all of them deserve to have the resources to reach their full potential, the basher or bender who can think on his or her feet is a valuable worker. I did my best to involve the people who would use them when I designed small tools  or test rigs for the shop floor. Always making sure they got credit for their ideas when talking to their supervisors or managers, "Yes, Freda had the good idea to . . ."
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Bluenose on July 30, 2018, 02:19:29 PM
Yep, basher and benders are required too.  I always remember a story my old man tells about a sailor on his squadron during his time at NAS Nowra.  Dad's aircraft suffered a bird strike and the job of making a repair was given to a particular sailor on the squadron.  This bloke would never have won a Rhodes Scholarship, but was a genius with his hands.  He slowly fashioned a patch for the complex curve at the wing root where the bird had struck that when fitted was indistinguishable from the original structure.  Normally a squadron repair would be temporary until the aircraft went in for major servicing, but this repair was never replaced, it didn't need it.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: chimp3 on July 31, 2018, 01:05:46 AM
The writings of. Kurt Vonnegut provide better moral teachings and insight into humanity than any Bible.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: hermes2015 on July 31, 2018, 04:36:55 AM
Quote from: chimp3 on July 31, 2018, 01:05:46 AM
The writings of. Kurt Vonnegut provide better moral teachings and insight into humanity than any Bible.

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 31, 2018, 06:48:32 AM
Quote from: chimp3 on July 31, 2018, 01:05:46 AM
The writings of. Kurt Vonnegut provide better moral teachings and insight into humanity than any Bible.

I'll add Robert Heinlein.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Tank on July 31, 2018, 07:52:47 AM
Quote from: Dave on July 31, 2018, 06:48:32 AM
Quote from: chimp3 on July 31, 2018, 01:05:46 AM
The writings of. Kurt Vonnegut provide better moral teachings and insight into humanity than any Bible.

I'll add Robert Heinlein.

He was a little bit right wing of Attila the Hun.
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 31, 2018, 01:26:49 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 31, 2018, 07:52:47 AM
Quote from: Dave on July 31, 2018, 06:48:32 AM
Quote from: chimp3 on July 31, 2018, 01:05:46 AM
The writings of. Kurt Vonnegut provide better moral teachings and insight into humanity than any Bible.

I'll add Robert Heinlein.

He was a little bit right wing of Attila the Hun.

I have heardbothers say thst, yes, he was no socialist in the political sense - but he did have an understanding of human nature/motives and a dislike of certain kinds of authority, especially things like mega churches and overly authorative local officials etc. "Stranger in a Strange Land" demonstrates this well IIRC. There is a "commune" like,  or maybe "sharing unrelated family", like structure between the main characters. Been decades since I read it.

Those who write about rightwing scenarios may, possibly, be being ironic . . . Heinlein often hammers authority in his works.

Though, having done a quick search, it seems he did swap sides a bit later in life, this is a very interesting review of a book on his politics.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-robert-heinlein-went-from-socialist-to-libertarian-1588357827
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Recusant on July 31, 2018, 06:34:27 PM
The discussion following the article is nearly as worthwhile as the article itself. As a youngster Heinlein was one of my heroes, and I drank up his libertarianism uncritically. However, as I learned more about the world, it almost entirely drained away. Proceeding on to the New Republic article (https://newrepublic.com/article/118048/william-pattersons-robert-heinlein-biography-hagiography).
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: Dave on July 31, 2018, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: Recusant on July 31, 2018, 06:34:27 PM
The discussion following the article is nearly as worthwhile as the article itself. As a youngster Heinlein was one of my heroes, and I drank up his libertarianism uncritically. However, as I learned more about the world, it almost entirely drained away. Proceeding on to the New Republic article (https://newrepublic.com/article/118048/william-pattersons-robert-heinlein-biography-hagiography).

Thanks, Recusant, that New Republic article was certainly interesting. I have yo admit that I enjoyed all his books that I read, but I was not quite so critical in my thinking in those days. I wonder whst I would think of them now? I have a copy of "Starship Troopers" somewhere, but I read it first with my mind still influenced by my own armed forces experience and that ethos. I know, that to some degree, that influences my thinking even today, 50 odd years after demob, mainly in terms of honour, mutual team support, commonalty of purpose etc, but, I will admit, something of the aggression we had to learn to use, carefully, still plays a small part in my thinking. Hmm another thread in philosophy there?

Heinlein was evidently a very complex man, and not the first to go from one political extreme to another in his lifetime - just that he maintained his position in the public eye. Churchill was alleged to have said,  "If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain." Heinlein took it a bit further maybe, progressively beyond 40?
Title: Re: How will atheism...
Post by: SidewalkCynic on January 27, 2019, 03:53:08 PM
Quote from: Tank on July 26, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
How will atheism fill the huge void it will create when it replaces theism?
Humanism is the correct ontological description to replace theism.

Humanism will subdivide into several schools of thought to cultivate communities. And atheism will subdivide into the political organizations if necessary. Chances are the humanist schools of thought will be understood to be political organizations, as well as ontological organizations (religions).