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Obama addresses birth control and catholic church

Started by Sweetdeath, February 10, 2012, 05:22:14 PM

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Sweetdeath

Quote from: fester30 on February 24, 2012, 05:38:50 PM
Then there is the irony that all of the Catholic Church's leadership is supposed to be celibate, yet they feel they're still somehow qualified to tell us what we should do with our bathroom parts.

Lol bathroom parts. That is gonna stick in my vocab. <3
Law 35- "You got to go with what works." - Robin Lefler

Wiggum:"You have that much faith in me, Homer?"
Homer:"No! Faith is what you have in things that don't exist. Your awesomeness is real."

"I was thinking that perhaps this thing called God does not exist. Because He cannot save any one of us. No matter how we pray, He doesn't mend our wounds.

Will37

Quote from: Stevil on February 11, 2012, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 11, 2012, 04:39:45 AM
I think it all stems from the verse that says, "Be fruitful and multiply". God says to procreate, so to do anything to prevent that is wicked. Which you would think would also extend to abstinence. I mean really, if we're going to take that as literally as possible, we should all be shagging 24/7. Probably get a lot more converts, too.
The Catholics are under the impression that contraceptives cause unwanted pregnancy which leads to abortion which is a form of murder.

No contraceptive is 100% fool proof. So indeed people having recreational sex using contraceptives run the risk of unwanted pregnancy. Given the numbers of people on the planet this means that using contraceptives it is a given that there will be unwanted pregnancies.

The Catholic Church is only for abstinence unless a person is trying to have a baby.

However they are in denial that it is human nature (and non human animal nature) to have sex. They are in denial that sex education and contraceptives actually work to reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies.

You've been at phatmass long enough to know that that's not the reason that Catholics oppose birth control and that the Church allows (with justifications I find frankly incoherent) Natural Family Planning.

Birth Control is important.  I think there is a strong moral (giving women autonomy over their bodies) as well as practical (the importance of BC in helping to fight poverty).  But I don't think there is a simple case here.  I agree with the government legally.  I don't think that the policy crosses or crossed any legal lines.  But I think we should question the wisdom of it.  Catholic hospitals are doing the society by being in existence, not the other way around.  Their existence saves us a lot of money and they have a positive impact on society.  You can find Catholic sexual ethics severely lacking, as I do, but I feel like too many secular people are acting like we are doing the Church a favor by letting them run hospitals.  We really aren't.  They are doing us (society) a favor by running them.  I think in light of that our reaction should be to find a workable compromise. 
'Out of a great number of suppositions, shrewd in their own way, one in particular emerged at last (one feels strange even mentioning it): whether Chichikov were not Napoleon in disguise'
Nikolai Gogol--> Dead Souls

'Коба, зачем тебе нужна моя смерть?'
Николай Иванович Бухарин-->Letter to Stalin

'Death is not an event in life: we do not live to exp

Stevil

Quote from: Will37 on February 28, 2012, 07:30:05 AM
You've been at phatmass long enough to know that that's not the reason that Catholics oppose birth control and that the Church allows (with justifications I find frankly incoherent) Natural Family Planning.
I have stated what people at Phatmass tell me. They go for abstinence only unless trying to make a baby, well, at least that is what they outwardly tell everyone. They keep arguing to me how contraceptives lead to abortion. I am honestly telling you what I have learned. But maybe I am wrong, I am certainly not trying to mislead.

G-Roll

QuoteWill37
They are doing us (society) a favor by running them.  I think in light of that our reaction should be to find a workable compromise.

Catholic hospitals may be privately owned but they are government funded. A conscious clause was enacted back in '73 that ruled religious organizations didnt have  to do anything that stepped on moral or religious beliefs. But WELL over half of tax payers here in the US use birth control of some kind regardless of their religion. So here is a government funded service that refuses to provide legal service to the public. I say cut the funding and replace them with secular hospitals with the same intentions the Catholics had. I dont know what you would call that....

Its the Catholic churches refusal to compromise that got this topic all the attention. When Obama stated that the insurance companies would pick up the bill for employees (who might not even be Catholic) who want birth control they still shot it down.
I see all that as a good thing though. How much longer can the church sit on its high horse or soap box and tell everyone how to live thier lives and what their sex lives should consist of. All the while running government funded facilities that deny basic modern needs. Modern needs that even most Catholics use.

I know Im late on this thread, just wanted to toss my $0.02 in.
....
Quote from: "Moslem"
Allah (that mean God)

Buddy

Quote from: RunFromMyLife on March 08, 2012, 07:38:41 PM
Michele Bachmann is now spouting off bullshit about how this mandate will eventually lead to limits on how many children a person can have.

So beware of that, folks. It's the obvious next step.

Pft, if it were up to me, you would have to take and pass a test to have children. And I know way to many people who would fail.
Strange but not a stranger<br /><br />I love my car more than I love most people.

Tank

Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 08, 2012, 08:08:32 PM
Quote from: RunFromMyLife on March 08, 2012, 07:38:41 PM
Michele Bachmann is now spouting off bullshit about how this mandate will eventually lead to limits on how many children a person can have.

So beware of that, folks. It's the obvious next step.

Pft, if it were up to me, you would have to take and pass a test to have children. And I know way to many people who would fail.
Many couples who have children wouldn't be allowed to adopt them under UK rules due to age, income or some other factor. If humans have any right at all it's to reproduce. After all that is the only 'reason' we are here.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

The Magic Pudding

Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2012, 08:12:09 PMIf humans have any right at all it's to reproduce. After all that is the only 'reason' we are here.

It seems likely those sentences will revive your question as to language's efficacy for discussing the deep questions.
It's going to be tricky agreeing on a definition of right and reason.

If humans have any right at all it is to act on their environment to ensure their survival.  After all that is the only "reason" we are here.

A lion will kill the cubs of its predecessor when it takes over a pride and will kill any interlopers touching his females.  I wouldn't call that a right, it's just what they do.  If it is evident that uncontrolled human reproduction threatens civilisation, I'd say people have a right to act to prevent it, if as you say "humans have any right at all."

Will37

Quote from: G-Roll on March 08, 2012, 01:29:58 PM
QuoteWill37
They are doing us (society) a favor by running them.  I think in light of that our reaction should be to find a workable compromise.

Catholic hospitals may be privately owned but they are government funded. A conscious clause was enacted back in '73 that ruled religious organizations didnt have  to do anything that stepped on moral or religious beliefs. But WELL over half of tax payers here in the US use birth control of some kind regardless of their religion. So here is a government funded service that refuses to provide legal service to the public. I say cut the funding and replace them with secular hospitals with the same intentions the Catholics had. I dont know what you would call that....

Its the Catholic churches refusal to compromise that got this topic all the attention. When Obama stated that the insurance companies would pick up the bill for employees (who might not even be Catholic) who want birth control they still shot it down.
I see all that as a good thing though. How much longer can the church sit on its high horse or soap box and tell everyone how to live thier lives and what their sex lives should consist of. All the while running government funded facilities that deny basic modern needs. Modern needs that even most Catholics use.

I know Im late on this thread, just wanted to toss my $0.02 in.


I appreciate it.  Honestly.
'Out of a great number of suppositions, shrewd in their own way, one in particular emerged at last (one feels strange even mentioning it): whether Chichikov were not Napoleon in disguise'
Nikolai Gogol--> Dead Souls

'Коба, зачем тебе нужна моя смерть?'
Николай Иванович Бухарин-->Letter to Stalin

'Death is not an event in life: we do not live to exp

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: Dobermonster on February 15, 2012, 08:37:56 PM
Quote from: Reprobate on February 15, 2012, 08:24:57 PM
Not "fucking catholics", but the fucking catholic church. The arrogance and hypocracy of the organization is ridiculous. Someone has to have the balls to show them they cannot live by their own laws. We all know how things worked out when they made the laws.

Agreed. The Vatican is a vile organization (basing this opinion on their practices, not just a general anti-religious statement). Catholics may be decent folks or not, depends on the person and whether they truly believe their leader (le Pope) has a direct line to God.

This^

Catholics have their value...they might change that vile institution yet. ::)
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey