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Re: Question about Relatioinships

Started by JillSwift, July 06, 2009, 05:34:06 PM

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Dragon_Of_Heavon

My question is a what if. What if you were raised by your parents and taught the whole blood is thicker than water thing? You were taught that it is an evil to actually hate some of the people in your family. However when you grow up you come to understand that love is based off of actually caring about people and sharing your self, not some kind of obligation. Is there a problem with this or is it in some way normal?
When the last bastion of religion falls the religious will look up at the sky and ask their God why? And then they will collapse wailing and grinding their teeth. The atheist will look at his feet and say "I think that I can build something better here!"

Heretical Rants

It is normal.

I barely know my Grandma.  This makes love impossible.  Furthermore, she is always trying to get me baptized... :drool

However, people often develop strong attachments to the people they grow up with, so in a way "Blood is thicker than water" is true.

They also share your genes to an extent.  This is why it is, in some situations, beneficial to risk your life for a close family member (like a sibling) .  Your own genes will be passed on indirectly through them..
So we have a natural tendency to love our family members, but love is much more than a "natural tendency."  They have to be the right kind of people.

JillSwift

As a species, we developed our social instincts to support small troupes that were mostly familial. It served our ancestors well to be essentially altruistic to those they were close to, and to be deeply loyal to that troupe.

That's all the "thicker than water" thing really is. And our social situation has changed a lot since.

So, it is quite normal, and there are problems with it. :)
[size=50]Teleology]

Heretical Rants

Jill, I think he was asking if it was normal to view love as an exchange between people (which it is) and not an obligation.

JillSwift

Quote from: "Heretical Rants"Jill, I think he was asking if it was normal to view love as an exchange between people (which it is) and not an obligation.
Yes - i guess I wasn't clear. Love is an exchange between people, not an obligation, but we have social instincts that can drive us to "love" family in a way that would appear obligatory because it's instinctually driven. Because we no longer live in small, familial troupes, it has become quite normal to consider family in the same way you do non-family for sharing love, but it is also problematic because of social expectation borne of instinct.
[size=50]Teleology]

Dragon_Of_Heavon

Yes I believe both of you are quite on point however would you consider it normal for a person to love a friend of theirs whom they have known for 4 years, more than the very parents who raised them. To be more accurate I am not speaking of romantic love as that would go with out saying. I am speaking more as in the Greek word for love. Philia or brotherly love.
When the last bastion of religion falls the religious will look up at the sky and ask their God why? And then they will collapse wailing and grinding their teeth. The atheist will look at his feet and say "I think that I can build something better here!"

Kylyssa

Most people in my family wouldn't be my friends.  I see family as a kind of lottery, you don't get to choose them.  Friends, you can choose based on compatibility.  I have a small but growing family of choice.  I find it far more nurturing than a bio-family.  

I'm not normal by anyone's standards but I don't feel an obligation to love anyone based on shared genes.  I love those family members that I do because of our interactions not because we share genes.  There are also family members that I can honestly say I do not love because of our interactions or lack of interactions.

Kylyssa

Quote from: "Dragon_Of_Heavon"Yes I believe both of you are quite on point however would you consider it normal for a person to love a friend of theirs whom they have known for 4 years, more than the very parents who raised them. To be more accurate I am not speaking of romantic love as that would go with out saying. I am speaking more as in the Greek word for love. Philia or brotherly love.

I'd say it depends on your relationship with your parents and with this person.  If he or she is more nurturing and empathetic with who you are now than your parents are now then it makes perfect sense to me that you'd be closer to that person than you are to your parents.

The very way you state your question makes it seem as if your parents have stressed that you in some way owe them for raising you.  To me, that is a very distancing assertion.  "You owe me" probably doesn't induce the warm fuzzies in many people.

JillSwift

Quote from: "Dragon_Of_Heavon"Yes I believe both of you are quite on point however would you consider it normal for a person to love a friend of theirs whom they have known for 4 years, more than the very parents who raised them. To be more accurate I am not speaking of romantic love as that would go with out saying. I am speaking more as in the Greek word for love. Philia or brotherly love.
If by "normal" you mean workable and healthy, then yes. If by "normal" you mean "typical", then no - but so what?

If you're just looking for validation, you have it. I think the whole love-family-over-others thing is silly. Family remains family no matter how well or poorly your relationship with them. Friendship must be constantly earned and re-earned, making it more valuable.
[size=50]Teleology]

thiolsulfate

I don't agree with that at all.

Even though someone shares a significant amount of my DNA doesn't automatically qualify them for my respect much more loyalty.

Regardless of whose penis I shot out of or whose vagina from whence I fell; love and respect are things that can be lost as they are given.

Sophus

From what I understand, most of the men on a certain side of my family were douchebags.

Quote from: "Kylyssa"The very way you state your question makes it seem as if your parents have stressed that you in some way owe them for raising you. To me, that is a very distancing assertion. "You owe me" probably doesn't induce the warm fuzzies in many people.

What kind of a parent sets out to have a child with such a mediocre, conditional, quid pro quo love with their child? And yet I see it happen all the time.
‎"Christian doesn't necessarily just mean good. It just means better." - John Oliver

AlP

Quote from: "Dragon_Of_Heavon"My question is a what if. What if you were raised by your parents and taught the whole blood is thicker than water thing? You were taught that it is an evil to actually hate some of the people in your family.
Whoever told you that had a silly idea. The idea of evil at best means very wrong. If they didn't tell you why it is very wrong you can safely ignore the statement since it has no content. Did they give you a reason as to why it is very wrong?
Quote from: "Dragon_Of_Heavon"However when you grow up you come to understand that love is based off of actually caring about people and sharing your self, not some kind of obligation.
Agreed!
Quote from: "Dragon_Of_Heavon"Is there a problem with this or is it in some way normal?
It's normal. The relationship you have with someone depends on what has happened between you, not on genetic similarity.

All that said, I suggest that hating people will make you unhappy. Been there (I was raped), not worth it.
"I rebel -- therefore we exist." - Camus

thiolsulfate

This topic came up today when I was with my parents. There was a report on the Uigers in China on the radio and my father (who is Han Chinese) asked what I knew about it.

I told him what I had read and what I had concluded from what I had read(: that the Uigers is a Muslim minority protesting against policies from an overwhelmingly (99% overwhelming) ethnic majority of Han Chinese who have migrated to the area with the support and encouragement of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). It started with a fight that broke out in a toy factory in the region with 2 dead and 116 injured and a CCP that chose to cover up the story. Since then there has been serious escalation, resulting in more protests, followed (as per usual) by an unreasonable amount of force, and 156 dead). I told him that the Chinese record on human rights, freedom, treatment of ethnic and political minorities has been more than wretched and that the only reason that this event won't make the Chinese record on human rights look worse is that the Chinese record on human rights couldn't possibly look worse than it does. I told him that they don't have a good record of honesty or openness so that must factor in when I weigh the many different sources of information I tap for any given subject.

At this point I was reminded that I was half Chinese to which I replied, "So what?"

I was told that I had to always take the side of my blood to which I replied, "No I don't."

The status of a person being related to me to any degree has no bearing on my view of them. My father and I do have our run ins (he being a Sino-nationalist and a Conservative Catholic [no, I don't know how he squares the two], and me being a godless half-breed) but he has been overwhelmingly good to me throughout my life and I love and respect him for that. To love someone because of the condition of sharing some fraction of their DNA seems slavish and servile.

I love my parents, not because they brought me into being, but because they treat me with love.