Happy Atheist Forum

With this image as an entrée to what I hope will be a juicy topic:


That there is a lot of stigma associated with mental illness is well known, but what isn't too clear is why some people seem to think that mental illness isn't real. Is it because depression, for instance, isn't an open wound for all to see? Indicators can't be "seen" in a blood test? Because it looks to many like an excuse to just lie around all day and do nothing? Do some people think that others don't have the right to complain that they're feeling sad? Who think that depressed people are weak-willed?

One collateral effect of such perceptions is people who should be seeking professional help become ashamed to do so, and that, I think a terrible thing to feel.   

The average person gets depressed from time to time, they snap out of it. Sadly, they have no idea of the impact and devastation that accompanies chronic, debilitating depression. They think that people who suffer from it play the woe is me card. Not justifying their actions, it's just difficult for people to wear another's shoes unless they have walked that same mile.

Yes, some cannot recognise that mental illness can be as physically disabling as a broken leg and have far more effect on a person's quality of life.

There is a line of depression running through my family. When not at work (as a park warden) an uncle would spend 99% of his time just sitting and staring at nothing, giving the barest minimum response to anything said to him. He could not concentrate on a book for more thzn about a page. I never remember seeing him smile.

I suffered from it, but mine was mainly due to specific events or situations, more of a reactive than clinical variety but I evidently had a tendrncy. It came with anger, self-loathing anxiety... all the usual accessories, Actually since my heart attack it has been far less of a problem but I would not recomend that as a potential cure.

There is some debate about provision for mental health in Britain at the moment, basically another ball the politicians kick around until it the next crisis comes along to take their attention. At the moment you have to be a physical danger to yourself or others before you get treatment, few see it as a glamourous career.

This is definitely an issue where people need to be educated. Part of the denial of the seriousness, is the fact that the word "depression" is a very broad term. If a person has never dealt with clinical or chemical depression, the image that probably comes to mind with that word is a teenager who just broke up with her boyfriend or a man who just lost his job. You pull on your big girl panties and move on with your life! Right?

I don't think a lot of people know, or care, that there are whole different levels to this issue.

I know I am fairly ignorant about deep depression, but I never really thought about my own intolerance and impatience for depression until I got a taste of it myself. And mine was for no good reason... And it wouldn't go away with tennis shoes and fresh air. Because I tried that route. It did go away eventually, and I still don't understand it. But I have much more compassion and empathy for those trying to battle this darkness.

The quick and easy and uncomplicated solution to things is very appealing to people. It would be great if depression could be solved by jogging a bit. It would be great if solutions were that easy. For those that only experience normal ranges of emotional states, it can be that easy. If you're a little sad, then the chemical boost from jogging can make you feel better. But those kinds of "solutions" are just like a band aid. They work great with small cuts and scrapes, but are completely useless when a person gets shot.

The people that like and believe in these kinds of things reveal that they haven't had a very difficult life. It's like when a kid hurts their knee for the first time, it very well be the most painful think they've ever experienced, but it's not the most painful thing they will live through where mommy kissing the booboo isn't going to cut it.

Great for them that they can jog a bit to lift their spirits when they're feeling a little down, but it is fucked up that they prescribe their ignorant solutions to other people who are actually inside a depressive downward spiral.

These kinds of easy "answer" ignorant assholes pretending to have authority, have been around for a long time. Sometimes there are more and sometimes less, and right now, with the whole internet connecting people, the get to spread and find more support more easily and for less.

January 24, 1984..... I woke up that morning to discover that my wife had died in her sleep. I spent the day making the arrangements that I had to make, call the daughter, son, her relatives.  I was most efficient that day.  That night I was alone, I crashed into a heap of tearful emotional hell. The next day and many many days after that I was in a deep depression state.   I learned what depression feels like.  That anniversary has passed only a couple of days ago.

After a week or so I began to nearly kill my rowing machine.  I did that every day. It helped but it did not fix the problem.  In a fairly short time I began to damn myself  because I was painfully remembering that I seldom brought her flowers and failed to leave little love notes for her to discover.  Why, why had I been such a dumb ass?  That kind of guilt trip made the depression even worse. 

I began to "run".  That is a word that the shrink used to describe a flurry of activity, mostly of a social nature.  You are running from the reality that you do not want to address.  Interactions with lots of other people helps keep your mind off the pain that you are trying desperately to mitigate. 

Within two weeks I began getting calls from nice single ladies who wanted to cook dinner for me or some other act of kindness.  After about a month I accepted one of those invitations. It was strictly a platonic relationship. But my adopted son discovered that I had gone to a woman's house and had dinner with her..  We listened to music....that was all.  Fred abandoned me completely because, in his mind, I had done something that defiled the memory of his mother. I was the worst kind of miserable bastard and he let me know it.  That did not help me with the depression.  My daughter who lived in another state was as conciliatory as she could be.  That helped a little bit. The physical exertion and perspiration brought on by the rowing machine helped more.

All through the early stages of my misery, my two dogs gave me comfort. One of them in particular seemed to know that I was in bad shape and she lavished her attention and affection on me.  I credit Molly with saving me from total  destructive despair. Molly was a very well educated Irish Setter who had been my constant companion for several years. She might have saved my life because I had nothing to live for.   Well yes I did have something to live for. I loved Molly and the other Irish setter named Buddy.  Buddy too was aware of my pain and he did everything he knew how to do to console me.  Those two would need me and I would not abandon them.

There is a lot more to my story but that is sufficient to enter this conversation.

Silver, make what you will of this sad tale of woe.  I do hope that I have not caused you any pain by mentioning my loving dogs. If you have some depression for having lost your companion, then I understand fully and I wish that I could give you a compassionate hug.

That was one of th most open, insightful and honest posts I have ever read anywhere.

I had one bout of depression in 1984 when my first marriage was on the rocks.  It's not just being down or blue - it can be absolutely debilitating. You feel like you can't move, you have no motivation, you see no way out.  It was mental, emotional and spiritual darkness.  It's not just a matter of getting out and getting some sunshine - the darkness is in your head and nothing can penetrate it at the time, it seems.  Fortunately, I came out of it after about a month, thanks to a friend who talked me through it and showed some real empathy.  But I can certainly sympathize with those who have it long-term.  It's like any sickness - sometimes you get better on your own, but sometimes it gets critical and you need help.  We don't stigmatize brain cancer or other brain diseases - we should not stigmatize mental illness, whether depression or psychosis.  The brain simply isn't working right during those times.

Icarus, your post hurt my heart to read, but makes me feel grateful to be in a circle with whom you will share that. Especially because I know there is so much more to your story. It sounds excruciating. *big hug to you*

Bruce, I can commiserate.  My kids kind of saved me in a similar situation, and I really do wonder how things would have turned out without them as a grounding force, needing me so much still.

Quote from: No one on January 26, 2018, 01:00:03 PM
The average person gets depressed from time to time, they snap out of it. Sadly, they have no idea of the impact and devastation that accompanies chronic, debilitating depression. They think that people who suffer from it play the woe is me card. Not justifying their actions, it's just difficult for people to wear another's shoes unless they have walked that same mile.

You do have a point, but it seems to me like a failure in empathy for those suffering from chronic depression. I don't know if it's a current trend, but now with all the information available and especially almost high exposure to depression and other mental illness-related topics in the media and such, could it be that people are becoming desensitized to it? Like, it's something so commonplace these days because people are talking about it more that it somehow downsizes the negative experience? 

I hope I'm making sense...

Quote from: Dave on January 26, 2018, 01:34:22 PM
Yes, some cannot recognise that mental illness can be as physically disabling as a broken leg and have far more effect on a person's quality of life.

There is a line of depression running through my family. When not at work (as a park warden) an uncle would spend 99% of his time just sitting and staring at nothing, giving the barest minimum response to anything said to him. He could not concentrate on a book for more thzn about a page. I never remember seeing him smile.

I suffered from it, but mine was mainly due to specific events or situations, more of a reactive than clinical variety but I evidently had a tendrncy. It came with anger, self-loathing anxiety... all the usual accessories, Actually since my heart attack it has been far less of a problem but I would not recomend that as a potential cure.

There is some debate about provision for mental health in Britain at the moment, basically another ball the politicians kick around until it the next crisis comes along to take their attention. At the moment you have to be a physical danger to yourself or others before you get treatment, few see it as a glamourous career.

What happened after your heart attack? Not to sound cliché, but did it change your perspective on life or something like that?

Quote from: Dragonia on January 26, 2018, 02:02:48 PM
This is definitely an issue where people need to be educated. Part of the denial of the seriousness, is the fact that the word "depression" is a very broad term. If a person has never dealt with clinical or chemical depression, the image that probably comes to mind with that word is a teenager who just broke up with her boyfriend or a man who just lost his job. You pull on your big girl panties and move on with your life! Right?

I don't think a lot of people know, or care, that there are whole different levels to this issue.

I know I am fairly ignorant about deep depression, but I never really thought about my own intolerance and impatience for depression until I got a taste of it myself. And mine was for no good reason... And it wouldn't go away with tennis shoes and fresh air. Because I tried that route. It did go away eventually, and I still don't understand it. But I have much more compassion and empathy for those trying to battle this darkness.

You have a point, there does seem to be many levels to this condition.

My younger brother has clinical depression that is controlled with medication, and he was told by the psychiatrist he would have to take them for the rest of his life. I never heard of this type of chronic depression before, one that requires life-long treatment. For as long as I remember he was was a melancholic person, see-sawing between ok and really bad moments. I worry a lot over his mental health. He has mentioned suicidal thoughts a few times in the past.

Quote from: Davin on January 26, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
The quick and easy and uncomplicated solution to things is very appealing to people. It would be great if depression could be solved by jogging a bit. It would be great if solutions were that easy. For those that only experience normal ranges of emotional states, it can be that easy. If you're a little sad, then the chemical boost from jogging can make you feel better. But those kinds of "solutions" are just like a band aid. They work great with small cuts and scrapes, but are completely useless when a person gets shot.

The people that like and believe in these kinds of things reveal that they haven't had a very difficult life. It's like when a kid hurts their knee for the first time, it very well be the most painful think they've ever experienced, but it's not the most painful thing they will live through where mommy kissing the booboo isn't going to cut it.

Great for them that they can jog a bit to lift their spirits when they're feeling a little down, but it is fucked up that they prescribe their ignorant solutions to other people who are actually inside a depressive downward spiral.

These kinds of easy "answer" ignorant assholes pretending to have authority, have been around for a long time. Sometimes there are more and sometimes less, and right now, with the whole internet connecting people, the get to spread and find more support more easily and for less.

Yes! When ignorant people prescribe these kind of solutions it really irks me. They can be just as bad as anti-vaxxers and such, in my opinion. 

Quote from: Icarus on January 26, 2018, 10:02:13 PM
January 24, 1984..... I woke up that morning to discover that my wife had died in her sleep. I spent the day making the arrangements that I had to make, call the daughter, son, her relatives.  I was most efficient that day.  That night I was alone, I crashed into a heap of tearful emotional hell. The next day and many many days after that I was in a deep depression state.   I learned what depression feels like.  That anniversary has passed only a couple of days ago.

After a week or so I began to nearly kill my rowing machine.  I did that every day. It helped but it did not fix the problem.  In a fairly short time I began to damn myself  because I was painfully remembering that I seldom brought her flowers and failed to leave little love notes for her to discover.  Why, why had I been such a dumb ass?  That kind of guilt trip made the depression even worse. 

I began to "run".  That is a word that the shrink used to describe a flurry of activity, mostly of a social nature.  You are running from the reality that you do not want to address.  Interactions with lots of other people helps keep your mind off the pain that you are trying desperately to mitigate. 

Within two weeks I began getting calls from nice single ladies who wanted to cook dinner for me or some other act of kindness.  After about a month I accepted one of those invitations. It was strictly a platonic relationship. But my adopted son discovered that I had gone to a woman's house and had dinner with her..  We listened to music....that was all.  Fred abandoned me completely because, in his mind, I had done something that defiled the memory of his mother. I was the worst kind of miserable bastard and he let me know it.  That did not help me with the depression.  My daughter who lived in another state was as conciliatory as she could be.  That helped a little bit. The physical exertion and perspiration brought on by the rowing machine helped more.

All through the early stages of my misery, my two dogs gave me comfort. One of them in particular seemed to know that I was in bad shape and she lavished her attention and affection on me.  I credit Molly with saving me from total  destructive despair. Molly was a very well educated Irish Setter who had been my constant companion for several years. She might have saved my life because I had nothing to live for.   Well yes I did have something to live for. I loved Molly and the other Irish setter named Buddy.  Buddy too was aware of my pain and he did everything he knew how to do to console me.  Those two would need me and I would not abandon them.

There is a lot more to my story but that is sufficient to enter this conversation.

Silver, make what you will of this sad tale of woe.  I do hope that I have not caused you any pain by mentioning my loving dogs. If you have some depression for having lost your companion, then I understand fully and I wish that I could give you a compassionate hug.

I wish I could give you a real hug, Icarus.  :hug2: Thank you for sharing this.

Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 27, 2018, 11:42:16 PM
I had one bout of depression in 1984 when my first marriage was on the rocks.  It's not just being down or blue - it can be absolutely debilitating. You feel like you can't move, you have no motivation, you see no way out.  It was mental, emotional and spiritual darkness.  It's not just a matter of getting out and getting some sunshine - the darkness is in your head and nothing can penetrate it at the time, it seems.  Fortunately, I came out of it after about a month, thanks to a friend who talked me through it and showed some real empathy.  But I can certainly sympathize with those who have it long-term.  It's like any sickness - sometimes you get better on your own, but sometimes it gets critical and you need help.  We don't stigmatize brain cancer or other brain diseases - we should not stigmatize mental illness, whether depression or psychosis.  The brain simply isn't working right during those times.

Well said. Besides suffering from the condition itself, those with mental illness suffer with the stigma attached. In the case of my brother, for instance, when my father dismisses his deep depression as attention-seeking and and excuse to do nothing productive, it both angers and saddens me. What happens is my brother interiorises those thoughts, and starts to feel like his symptoms are actually personality flaws.

Those are not the kind of words that people suffering from mental illness need to hear. They need to feel safe and not feel ashamed to seek help and reach out to others who can help them.   

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)No one:
The average person gets depressed from time to time, they snap out of it. Sadly, they have no idea of the impact and devastation that accompanies chronic, debilitating depression. They think that people who suffer from it play the woe is me card. Not justifying their actions, it's just difficult for people to wear another's shoes unless they have walked that same mile.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Aregentium:
You do have a point, but it seems to me like a failure in empathy for those suffering from chronic depression. I don't know if it's a current trend, but now with all the information available and especially almost high exposure to depression and other mental illness-related topics in the media and such, could it be that people are becoming desensitized to it? Like, it's something so commonplace these days because people are talking about it more that it somehow downsizes the negative experience?

I hope I'm making sense...

Maybe not so much as desensitized as it is misunderstood. This can be said of any illness or injury where those that are unfamiliar with the crisis at hand. Unless you have a direct effect from said injury or illness or you know someone who suffers from, it is hard to quantify or fathom just what they are going through.

Let's face it, if a good portion of people who languish through this exhausting, depleting misery barley understand it themselves. How can anyone on the outside truly grasp the severity of it all? Most people with no experience area can not begin to comprehend the crushing weight, the consuming emptiness that devours one's will.

It is easy to sit on the sidelines and mercilessly judge, those that appear weak. And humans always choose the path of least resistance. The mock with the what do you have to be depressed about, as if life is some sort of comparison as to who has more right to wallow in their despair.   

It's all just a matter of understanding. If humans took more time to understand one another, the whole of their misfortune would melt away, and what a wonderful time it would be.

Quote from: No one on February 01, 2018, 12:59:51 AM
...How can anyone on the outside truly grasp the severity of it all? Most people with no experience area can not begin to comprehend the crushing weight, the consuming emptiness that devours one's will.
...

This is deep.

Quote from: No one on February 01, 2018, 12:59:51 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)No one:
The average person gets depressed from time to time, they snap out of it. Sadly, they have no idea of the impact and devastation that accompanies chronic, debilitating depression. They think that people who suffer from it play the woe is me card. Not justifying their actions, it's just difficult for people to wear another's shoes unless they have walked that same mile.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Aregentium:
You do have a point, but it seems to me like a failure in empathy for those suffering from chronic depression. I don't know if it's a current trend, but now with all the information available and especially almost high exposure to depression and other mental illness-related topics in the media and such, could it be that people are becoming desensitized to it? Like, it's something so commonplace these days because people are talking about it more that it somehow downsizes the negative experience?

I hope I'm making sense...

Maybe not so much as desensitized as it is misunderstood. This can be said of any illness or injury where those that are unfamiliar with the crisis at hand. Unless you have a direct effect from said injury or illness or you know someone who suffers from, it is hard to quantify or fathom just what they are going through.

Let's face it, if a good portion of people who languish through this exhausting, depleting misery barley understand it themselves. How can anyone on the outside truly grasp the severity of it all? Most people with no experience area can not begin to comprehend the crushing weight, the consuming emptiness that devours one's will.

It is easy to sit on the sidelines and mercilessly judge, those that appear weak. And humans always choose the path of least resistance. The mock with the what do you have to be depressed about, as if life is some sort of comparison as to who has more right to wallow in their despair.   

It's all just a matter of understanding. If humans took more time to understand one another, the whole of their misfortune would melt away, and what a wonderful time it would be.

Nice post.  Just my relatively brief experience with actual depression helps me empathize with those who suffer from it long-term or more intensely than I did.  I spent one night in jail as an 18 year-old - that was enough to convince me I never want to go back.  I spent a few weeks in depression - that was enough to know how horrible it could be if it didn't go away.

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trackie.com%2Ftrack-and-field%2Fimg%2Flayout%2Ficon_quote.jpg&hash=c5a9d5ac5c9c0366d813e18a50510fe9aa16bfc2)Ecurb Noselrub:
I spent a few weeks in depression - that was enough to know how horrible it could be if it didn't go away.


And that's just it, it does not go away. Once you plummet to its depths, climbing out seems unimaginable. Unless one seeks help. Lamentably, many in this situation either feel they deserve to feel this way, or see asking for help as a sign of weakness. That is the stigma attached to depression.

When we get around t it we can discuss how little we know about PTSD.  What we do know is that it is a devastating condition that has its origin in being involved in, or witnessing some human horror.  If you were close to your platoon leader who stepped on an IED or Claymore mine that blew his legs off, saw the result of a bombing or rocket attack that killed innocent women and children.   Even the dismemberment of an enemy will leave an indelible impression that can not be dismissed or forgotten.

PTSD victims have tens of times more suicides than those of us who are merely sad or have simple anxieties. They are many times over more likely to destroy their families, become homeless, get hooked on drugs, or commit a murder.  Sadly we are not paying as much attention to that sad state of affairs as the sickness deserves.  It is much easier for us to pretend that that very real problem does not exist as seriously or as often as it does.  It does not touch us so we can ignore it or insist that the victim just get a grip and pull up his socks.

I have used the masculine case, but it is not exclusively a male problem. Women too have demons.

Thanks for posting your thoughts, guys. It's given me plenty to think about!

Quote from: Icarus on February 01, 2018, 10:02:01 PM
When we get around t it we can discuss how little we know about PTSD.  What we do know is that it is a devastating condition that has its origin in being involved in, or witnessing some human horror.  If you were close to your platoon leader who stepped on an IED or Claymore mine that blew his legs off, saw the result of a bombing or rocket attack that killed innocent women and children.   Even the dismemberment of an enemy will leave an indelible impression that can not be dismissed or forgotten.

PTSD victims have tens of times more suicides than those of us who are merely sad or have simple anxieties. They are many times over more likely to destroy their families, become homeless, get hooked on drugs, or commit a murder.  Sadly we are not paying as much attention to that sad state of affairs as the sickness deserves.  It is much easier for us to pretend that that very real problem does not exist as seriously or as often as it does.  It does not touch us so we can ignore it or insist that the victim just get a grip and pull up his socks.

I have used the masculine case, but it is not exclusively a male problem. Women too have demons.

Icarus, please do not forget that PTSD, in its broad interpretation of including flashbacks and seemingly inappropriate responses to misinterpreted stimuli, affects those subjected to prolonged abuse of emotional, sexual, physical, domestic, taunting or bullying at school or on anti-social media and so on. It can also be suffered by members of the law agencies and emergency services. Ir mrmbers of the public who cannot avoid being adversely involved in traumstic incidents.

Yes, chances are PTSD lije symptoms might be found in many of the mass shooting perpetrstors. Whst experiences turned their minds or made them liable to "blow"?

Not entirely relevant to this and I am not sure if he suffered PTSD but they interviewed the "model" for "Rambo",  the "A Team's"
"Hanibal Smith" and others Bo Gritz, (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Gritz)  on the radio the other day. Frightening. He still slerps with a pistol under his pillow and a shotgun within reasy each it seems - plus the usual full home armoury.

Don't overthink it Silver. 

Reality is a bitch and we need to address it but not let it diminish us. Compassion ? Yes. Personal guilt? No. Not until mankind has achieved some higher state of being.  That is the stuff that Christian religion is pretended to be built on.  It is not working very well in the broad scheme of things. Would that it were so.

Quote from: Icarus on March 05, 2018, 01:28:54 AM
Don't overthink it Silver. 

Reality is a bitch and we need to address it but not let it diminish us. Compassion ? Yes. Personal guilt? No. Not until mankind has achieved some higher state of being.  That is the stuff that Christian religion is pretended to be built on.  It is not working very well in the broad scheme of things. Would that it were so.

:thumbsup2:

So, we're talking about mental illness and stigma. When my grandfather was twelve years old my great grandfather shot himself after Sunday dinner in the backyard. When my father was twenty three, my father found him in an old house on the farm having asphyxiated himself with a hose from his truck's exhaust. When I was fourteen, my father was found after having committed suicide in the same way. I know a thing or two about mental illness.

The stigma for me is other people knowing that I'm going to wind up the same way but sending the cops to haul me to jail when I need someone to talk to. Because I don't have anyone that I can talk to. Not honestly anyway. The same people who won't hire me because theyknow I'm a liability. If they give me any sort of responsibility I'll just off myself or lose it like my dad fid on occasion and hurt people
I'm stuck in shitty work but my responsibilities won't let me leave this place.

It's those responsibilities that caused my relationship with Claire to end. I lost my best friend without a word. She couldn't deal with me anymore and I can't say I blame her. I wouldn't put up with my shit either. Don't really want to stay but can't move on. Stuck. And because of it I wound up hurting someone I cared more deeply for than anyone in my life.

I'm past that now but anytime I think about trying to find someone new I'm frightened by the fact that I'll have to lie to them. Lie so they aren't scared away. Lie to protect them when what I really need is someone that I can confide in. If I'm going to talk, really talk, I have to know it won't go any further than them.

But, when I do talk the cops are called to "keep me safe" and I have to work my way out of that jam without commiting a fucking felony by lying to the goddamn police. I can't see a doctor because the family doctors just throw drugs at the problem, most of which I couldn't take if I though it would help, and the head doctors all seem to want to wait a year or two for an appointment. Unless of course you're rich. I'll never be rich though.

It's damn near impossible to navigate this goddamn minefield. No matter how badly you want something, you can't have it. Even if you get it, somethings there to take it away. So you get up in the morning to take the dog out and go to work because they count on you. They might not all appreciate you but they know damn well when you're not there. On the way home you find something to do, something someone else needs done.

I don't think many normal folks appreciate just how much a depressed person needs to be depended on. They need to know that somewhere someone is counting on them being at some place or doing some thing. It might not seem like much but letting them pick something up from the store, or take out your trash can be a big help.

Because without that, they'd never bother getting up or getting dressed. They might shower but only so they don't feel greasy and uncomfortable on the couch.

So sorry to hear that you've suffered that much, jumbojak. :(

You learn to deal with it. The point I was trying to get across before I got going was to try to let people be useful. Inactivity is the worst. My dad really got really bad after back surgery put him out of work.

JJ, I can entirely rekate to your experiences. Suicide anxiety, alcoholism and clinical depression run through my family's history. Thoughts of suicide and all but alcoholism (or sny other drugs use beyond once being a smoker) figure in my personal history.

I also fully understand the sense of being needed, it gives you a value thst, perhaps, you deny yourself. That is part of the reason I undertake voluntary work - I enjoy it because it gives me a few of the things that having a stable family environment give to others. It is an importsnt part of my social life.

Strangely my almost fatal heart attack(s) (the cause of which was probably as much due to my genes and my "emotional climate" as my smoking, weight and lack of exercise*) seemed to "cure" me of some if those problems. A kick in the mental as well as the physical ass. But I recommend finding other solutions if possible.

However, some things still hsunt me and I have to consider that I have the strength of character, and purpose, to live through this. I take a pleasure in helping others, where I can do so safely - occasionaly without them knowing so.

Keep going, JJ, I enjoy your virtual company and admire your skills and abilities (and am envious of your facilities!)

* All those things are said to be part of the complex and tangled web of cause and effect, psychology is the art of understanding which kinds of knots to undue in the right order. Then rebuilding a simpler but more stable one in its place.

Wow JJ, I'm kind of speechless, but I'm glad you shared that part of your life with us. Thank you, because it can't be pleasant talking about these issues.
I like your thoughts on being needed, and that will always be in the back of my mind now.
I'm glad you're here. 

Quote from: jumbojak on March 06, 2018, 01:59:56 AM
You learn to deal with it. The point I was trying to get across before I got going was to try to let people be useful. Inactivity is the worst. My dad really got really bad after back surgery put him out of work.

Yes, it makes sense. 

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 06, 2018, 01:30:59 PM

Quote from: jumbojak on March 06, 2018, 01:59:56 AM
You learn to deal with it. The point I was trying to get across before I got going was to try to let people be useful. Inactivity is the worst. My dad really got really bad after back surgery put him out of work.

Yes, it makes sense.

Thinking back on it it was not my MI and the thought of a life with a severely damaged heart that got me thoroughly depressed during my three weeks in hospital (the medics thought it was.) It was the almost total lack of occupation. I was not there long enough to qualify for occupational therapy, reading in a busy ward I do not find easy, i was virtually bed bound for all but the last three days and going out of my tiny mind!

Quote from: Dragonia on March 06, 2018, 12:24:31 PM
Wow JJ, I'm kind of speechless, but I'm glad you shared that part of your life with us. Thank you, because it can't be pleasant talking about these issues.
I like your thoughts on being needed, and that will always be in the back of my mind now.
I'm glad you're here.

:this:

Very difficult to read. I can only imagine how difficult it is to go through it, JJ.

I admire your courage, telling us your story must have been tough.  A lot of us have painful stories to tell, but some of us are too chicken to share them...Like me...even after being here for 8 years with all these wonderful people. Again, I admire you and I think you belong here with us.

Quote from: jumbojak on March 06, 2018, 12:18:47 AM

I don't think many normal folks appreciate just how much a depressed person needs to be depended on. They need to know that somewhere someone is counting on them being at some place or doing some thing. It might not seem like much but letting them pick something up from the store, or take out your trash can be a big help.

Because without that, they'd never bother getting up or getting dressed. They might shower but only so they don't feel greasy and uncomfortable on the couch.

Totally understand this.  It lets us know we're not as useless as we think we are.  Sorry for all the difficulties, sometimes it seems like a rigged system.  I'm glad that at least you can talk to us, even tho we're just words on a screen.

Quote from: Magdalena on March 06, 2018, 07:47:06 PM

Quote from: Dragonia on March 06, 2018, 12:24:31 PM
Wow JJ, I'm kind of speechless, but I'm glad you shared that part of your life with us. Thank you, because it can't be pleasant talking about these issues.
I like your thoughts on being needed, and that will always be in the back of my mind now.
I'm glad you're here.

:this:

Very difficult to read. I can only imagine how difficult it is to go through it, JJ.

I admire your courage, telling us your story must have been tough.  A lot of us have painful stories to tell, but some of us are too chicken to share them...Like me...even after being here for 8 years with all these wonderful people. Again, I admire you and I think you belong here with us.

I've been dealing with this since I was eight or nine years old. I can't remember exactly. Something literally snapped in my head as fat as I can tell. One day I was fine and the next it was hard to be bothered about anything. I tried talking to my parents then but that just landed me in a lot of trouble. What I've written here will probably land me in some hot water sooner or later but I don't care anymore.

Trying to keep busy has led me into some self destructive behavior. The kind of stuff that leads to your family disowning you after you plead the fifth before Congress... I worry too that something I've done will come back to haunt me. Given the current political climate, I'm actually waiting for that particular hammer to drop. It was stupid, short sighted. But I have to own it now. There are times I wish I completely lost my mind like my father did. At least that way you can go back to some semblance of a normal life.

I've never suffered depression. And I can't hope to empathise. Reading all your stories  - and those of many (most?) people around me IRL - makes me think that I might be the exception rather than the norm.

I do wonder if my own dysfunction, walling me off emotionally on many levels, actually insulates me from depression. Being a cynical fucker, any bad news is more likely to evoke a sneer at the world rather than taken inwardly. This was tested recently with the death of my Grandmother whose company I enjoyed more than most in the world. Died in a fire. Probably a horrible way to go. My overriding emotion is relief - all her worldly suffering is over. I'm happy for her - it would be selfish to wish it different. And two other close deaths in 2017, both premature, have not dented my life either other than having to deal with those around me left alive.

...Or maybe it's all just more bricks in the wall?

Is that to be envied or pitied? A double-edged sword I suppose. It would be nice to experience more highs - to let more love into my life, perhaps - but not sure I'd be able to cope with the accompanying lows. Better, I think, to sail an even keel - albeit sitting low in the water. We'll all be dead soon, anyway, so that's a positive, right?!

Meanwhile, I try to be sympathetic to y'all who obviously suffer with depression. Peace.

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 06, 2018, 10:15:28 PM
...I'm glad that at least you can talk to us, even tho we're just words on a screen.

Wait...wait...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationksa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fconfused-mark-Optimized.gif&hash=52c3e114544a0b8d49f9ff201e1fe1e735fc05cb)

Quote from: jumbojak on March 07, 2018, 02:44:44 AM

Quote from: Magdalena on March 06, 2018, 07:47:06 PM

Quote from: Dragonia on March 06, 2018, 12:24:31 PM
Wow JJ, I'm kind of speechless, but I'm glad you shared that part of your life with us. Thank you, because it can't be pleasant talking about these issues.
I like your thoughts on being needed, and that will always be in the back of my mind now.
I'm glad you're here.

:this:

Very difficult to read. I can only imagine how difficult it is to go through it, JJ.

I admire your courage, telling us your story must have been tough.  A lot of us have painful stories to tell, but some of us are too chicken to share them...Like me...even after being here for 8 years with all these wonderful people. Again, I admire you and I think you belong here with us.

I've been dealing with this since I was eight or nine years old. I can't remember exactly. Something literally snapped in my head as fat as I can tell. One day I was fine and the next it was hard to be bothered about anything. I tried talking to my parents then but that just landed me in a lot of trouble. What I've written here will probably land me in some hot water sooner or later but I don't care anymore.

Trying to keep busy has led me into some self destructive behavior. The kind of stuff that leads to your family disowning you after you plead the fifth before Congress... I worry too that something I've done will come back to haunt me. Given the current political climate, I'm actually waiting for that particular hammer to drop. It was stupid, short sighted. But I have to own it now. There are times I wish I completely lost my mind like my father did. At least that way you can go back to some semblance of a normal life.

I'm not one hundred percent sure I understand what you just said, but it sounds, "heavy."

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 04:57:43 AM

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 06, 2018, 10:15:28 PM
...I'm glad that at least you can talk to us, even tho we're just words on a screen.

Wait...wait...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationksa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fconfused-mark-Optimized.gif&hash=52c3e114544a0b8d49f9ff201e1fe1e735fc05cb)

Well, in your case, gifs on a screen.

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 07, 2018, 06:35:20 AM

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 04:57:43 AM

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 06, 2018, 10:15:28 PM
...I'm glad that at least you can talk to us, even tho we're just words on a screen.

Wait...wait...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdestinationksa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fconfused-mark-Optimized.gif&hash=52c3e114544a0b8d49f9ff201e1fe1e735fc05cb)

Well, in your case, gifs on a screen.

We're just words on a screen.
We're gifs on a screen.
We're dust in the wind.





:grin:

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 08:11:34 AM

We're just words on a screen.
We're gifs on a screen.
We're dust in the wind.

:grin:

Now that song is going to be stuck in my head all day, particularly the "ooohhh ooooohhhh ooooohhhh" part.

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 07, 2018, 04:52:58 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 08:11:34 AM

We're just words on a screen.
We're gifs on a screen.
We're dust in the wind.

:grin:

Now that song is going to be stuck in my head all day, particularly the "ooohhh ooooohhhh ooooohhhh" part.

I have no idea what you're talking about and hope it stays that way. :grin:

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 07, 2018, 04:56:54 PM

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 07, 2018, 04:52:58 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 08:11:34 AM

We're just words on a screen.
We're gifs on a screen.
We're dust in the wind.

:grin:

Now that song is going to be stuck in my head all day, particularly the "ooohhh ooooohhhh ooooohhhh" part.

I have no idea what you're talking about and hope it stays that way. :grin:

^^^
:snicker:
OK, xSilverPhinx.

I'm sorry, Sandra Craft.   :lol:

I've had some encounters with mental illnesses as well. Two of my friends and a friendly neighbor suffered from depressions, which made them commit suicide.

My mother developed a cleanliness phobia, when I was about 12 years old. The whole family went than through a living hell (until her early death, 6 years later). I've seen things, that words can hardly describe. Like my mother lying completely drunk and naked on the living room floor; or lying apathetically in bed for many, many days. Professional help  and medication only helped for a short period of time.

Currently my niece is writing a blog, about her life with her dominating, alcoholic father (my brother) and her manic-depressive mother. I've told you about the nasty stuff that my brother had on his hard disk before, but how he treated his wife and his daughter is truly heart breaking. I can't imagine all the horrors, that she went through. Most of it was kept secret, like my sister-in-law two suicide attempts.

Quote from: Tom62 on March 08, 2018, 05:48:10 PM
I've had some encounters with mental illnesses as well. Two of my friends and a friendly neighbor suffered from depressions, which made them commit suicide.

My mother developed a cleanliness phobia, when I was about 12 years old. The whole family went than through a living hell (until her early death, 6 years later). I've seen things, that words can hardly describe. Like my mother lying completely drunk and naked on the living room floor; or lying apathetically in bed for many, many days. Professional help  and medication only helped for a short period of time.

Currently my niece is writing a blog, about her life with her dominating, alcoholic father (my brother) and her manic-depressive mother. I've told you about the nasty stuff that my brother had on his hard disk before, but how he treated his wife and his daughter is truly heart breaking. I can't imagine all the horrors, that she went through. Most of it was kept secret, like my sister-in-law two suicide attempts.

That's so tragic Tom.

That's truly horrible Tom. :(

That is a very sad story, Tom62.  Sharing something so personal with all of us...I admire you.

It's diffficult to read these stories. Must be awful to live through them :(

We are all just words on a screen here at HAF.  But we are also real people with our own demons to deal with. That we can have the confidence to describe some of our demons in this forum is a remarkable achievement for us as a group. Sure enough we are behaving as if we are a caring family which is  rare and precious in a public forum.  In fact I believe that we actually are a caring bunch with not even a hint of guile.

:toff:

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 07, 2018, 04:56:54 PM

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 07, 2018, 04:52:58 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 08:11:34 AM

We're just words on a screen.
We're gifs on a screen.
We're dust in the wind.

:grin:

Now that song is going to be stuck in my head all day, particularly the "ooohhh ooooohhhh ooooohhhh" part.

I have no idea what you're talking about and hope it stays that way. :grin:

Oh, the temptation.

Quote from: Tank on March 08, 2018, 09:25:59 PM
It's diffficult to read these stories. Must be awful to live through them :(

True.  So much pain the world that the rest of us can do nothing about.  Is the blog a form of therapy for your niece, Tom?

Thanks for all your support. It was hard to write about my experiences, but somehow it is great to get it off my chest. My niece does it by writing her blog. The feedback that she gets back is great. She also had professional help in the past, which helped her a lot to recover. 

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 09, 2018, 01:43:02 AM

Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 07, 2018, 04:56:54 PM

Quote from: Sandra Craft on March 07, 2018, 04:52:58 PM

Quote from: Magdalena on March 07, 2018, 08:11:34 AM

We're just words on a screen.
We're gifs on a screen.
We're dust in the wind.

:grin:

Now that song is going to be stuck in my head all day, particularly the "ooohhh ooooohhhh ooooohhhh" part.

I have no idea what you're talking about and hope it stays that way. :grin:

Oh, the temptation.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/FHCdp8qwulqN2/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Tom62 on March 09, 2018, 05:29:32 AM
Thanks for all your support. It was hard to write about my experiences, but somehow it is great to get it off my chest...

I think this what they mean when they talk about, "healing the wound."

Quote from: Magdalena on March 09, 2018, 06:27:56 AM

Quote from: Tom62 on March 09, 2018, 05:29:32 AM
Thanks for all your support. It was hard to write about my experiences, but somehow it is great to get it off my chest...

I think this what they mean when they talk about, "healing the wound."

Not sure that such wounds ever exactly heal, Mags, but telling others of one's experiences without great fear of an adverse reaction from them certainly reduces the scarring a little.

Calling for help and attention in the "wrong way" can make matters worse, as can "bottling it up". Expressing the matter with a little objectivity - not rationalising or trying to excuse it but being as factual as one can - is a part of "-talking therapy". One can pay a therapist a small fortune for them just to listen, with the occasional little nod and, "Mm--hmm."

But they are trained for the job, you are paying them to be objective. In an environment like this it"s like relling friends who do not judge, who remain the same friends. That is important and gives a dose of courage back.

Thanks agsin you lot!

Oh boy looking forward to reading this thread....

*rubs hands menacingly*

In the mean time, you can watch this video about "How To Talk To A Delusional Person"

Well this seems to be all about depression.

Not where I thought this thread would go considering the shootings lately.

Hmm...where do I start....

Depression.

Many forms of depression.

Depression can come and go and that is still depression.

Depression that is 24/7 for the rest of your life is more understandable to me than the depression that hops up and down, but beats you down so hard that you can't see anything but the dirt you were pushed into.

Nihilism - the belief that nothing is real, often accompanied by the thought that not even you yourself are real. Often that can bring a sense of pain for one person - but if the belief that the person is not real is true to them, then neither is their suffering. And they free themselves by focusing on happiness for the only thing that bends, is not the nonexistent-spoon, it is you that bends.

I know I have mentioned I have a mental illness. I spend a lot of time with people who have the same illness on another forum.

When it comes to PTSD, there are people on the other forum that have this as well, even though it is not the focus of the forum. I have asked them if they see flashes of the events in their flashbacks. Like pictures, or a movie. They have all said yes, and the motivation I have for asking that question is because it was mentioned in a video about PTSD and I identified with that.

There is a lot of mention of self harm in the other forum. There was a fight about medication earlier with most of the older members getting upset with me. The post was started already aggressively about "x people need their medications period" and that was VERY upsetting to people because not all of them take medication but still feel they have a problem. So I went in there and tried to convince a few people to think outside there head and that angered the original poster enough to tell me I am bad for the forum and the way I speak to people is not good for the people on there. That prompted a moderator to lock the thread.

Anyways I'm going off on a tangent. The point is, stigma is everywhere, even among ourselves with illnesses and to each other.

I suffer a bad case of "depression" when someone speaks to me like that when in reality, they don't even know me. But it hurts none the less. And I go through this far too much.

At this point I'll just dump a bunch of psychiatry related videos























I posted a lot with this lady. I love her. She is the kind of therapist I want but none of them will ever see me, so I opted to never go to therapy ever again.

I'm going to make this about religion (because this is an atheist website, what else am I going to do)

So when it comes to mental illnesses like OCD, a major component is intrusive thoughts. And the person with OCD tries to block the thoughts because they are afraid of them. They sometimes carry thoughts of harming someone or themselves, which for obvious reasons will carry a sense of anxiety with them. Intrusive thoughts like these and others can be seen in other mental illnesses as well and often times it is religious fanatics that will see these symptoms and say they are possessed by the devil. Often with the justification that the person says they are intrusive, and that if God were with them, they would never think about harming anyone.

Schizophrenia is often seen as such a thing. It is very painful to me that a good friend of mine who has been diagnosed with schizophrenia draws her hallucinations, and people have told me that she isn't drawing visions caused by an overactive brain but she is instead drawing demons. Like she is some evil spirit manifested into the reality we know. And that is not what I sense when I am with her. I sense that she is a really caring individual.