Happy Atheist Forum

Religion => Religion => Topic started by: Biggus Dickus on February 23, 2017, 04:43:54 PM

Title: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Biggus Dickus on February 23, 2017, 04:43:54 PM
Our Blessed Papa in Rome has once again mentioned us atheists in one of his sermons, on Thursday. He said,...Christians who exploit people, lead a double life and get involved in "dirty business," scandalize the church,...In fact, it might be better just to be an atheist".

He went on to say,...he imagined a wealthy Christian knocking at the gates of heaven and saying, "Here I am, Lord! ... I went to Church, I was close to you, I belong to this association, I did this... Don't you remember all the offerings I made?"

To which Jesus may reply, according to the Pope:

"Yes, I remember. The offerings, I remember them: All dirty. All stolen from the poor. I don't know you.' That will be Jesus' response to these scandalous people who live a double life."


I'm sure this will ruffle the feathers of many a christian, and I'm interested in finding out from catholics how they feel about this, especially some of the hard-core Catholics I know. (Some of my wife's friends from Honduras are like "Católicos locos".


In simple terms it comes down to just doing good in your life, practice some compassion, and forget the dogma, the scripture, the fundamentalist waco and extremist teachings and try not to be a dick.

CNN Article about the Papa giving atheists some love. (http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/world/pope-atheists-again/index.html)

Not that this applies to all of you atheists here at HAF, some of you still need to get with me and confess your sins...
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Arturo on February 23, 2017, 05:16:21 PM
As much as I want to believe that, CNN doesn't have a source for that so I wonder how much of it is true and how much of it was spun to fulfil an objective. But I am viewing on my phone so that may have an affect.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Recusant on February 23, 2017, 05:26:02 PM
Some Catholics may listen to what the pope said, but plenty of them have already written him off because of just this sort of thing. They bring their politics into the church, and since they see the pope as disagreeing with their politics, they feel justified in ignoring his preaching.

Quote from: Dredge on January 25, 2017, 06:13:34 AMThis current Pope is a Loony Left clown.





Quote from: Arturo on February 23, 2017, 05:16:21 PM
As much as I want to believe that, CNN doesn't have a source for that so I wonder how much of it is true and how much of it was spun to fulfil an objective. But I am viewing on my phone so that may have an affect.

CNN cited (but didn't link) Vatican Radio. Their article on the sermon (http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/02/23/pope_dont_put_off_conversion,_give_up_a_double_life/1294470) basically confirms what CNN reported.

A direct quote of the pope from that site:

Quote"But what is scandal? Scandal is saying one thing and doing another; it is a double life, a double life. A totally double life: 'I am very Catholic, I always go to Mass, I belong to this association and that one; but my life is not Christian, I don't pay my workers a just wage, I exploit people, I am dirty in my business, I launder money...' A double life. And so many Christians are like this, and these people scandalize others. How many times have we heard – all of us, around the neighbourhood and elsewhere – 'but to be a Catholic like that, it's better to be an atheist.' It is that, scandal. You destroy. You beat down. And this happens every day, it's enough to see the news on TV, or to read the papers. In the papers there are so many scandals, and there is also the great publicity of the scandals. And with the scandals there is destruction."

So he didn't himself say that it's better to be an atheist than a greedy exploitative Catholic, he attributed that thought to what is heard "around the neighbourhood and elsewhere." CNN says that he "suggested" such a thing, which is more or less accurate.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on February 23, 2017, 05:41:46 PM
By not refuting the, "...better to be an atheist" it might be considered that he endorses that sentiment.

Most religious organisations have had a hypocritical streak for all their histories I think, either lay or clergy who say one thing yet fo something very different.

Just like regular peoples!
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Pasta Chick on February 23, 2017, 06:35:09 PM
Kinda backhanded though.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 23, 2017, 10:35:51 PM
Oh, but the Vatican is very poor, so very poor... :-\ And surely they haven't gotten their riches historically by not exploiting people. Wasn't that one of the factors that sparked the Protestant Reformation? :notsure:

Quote from: Pasta Chick on February 23, 2017, 06:35:09 PM
Kinda backhanded though.

:this:

A "real" Catholic > Atheist > Greedy Christian.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Tom62 on February 24, 2017, 05:37:49 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on February 23, 2017, 10:35:51 PM
Oh, but the Vatican is very poor, so very poor... :-\ And surely they haven't gotten their riches historically by not exploiting people. Wasn't that one of the factors that sparked the Protestant Reformation? :notsure:

Quote from: Pasta Chick on February 23, 2017, 06:35:09 PM
Kinda backhanded though.

:this:

A "real" Catholic > Atheist > Greedy Christian.

Once the catholic church will start to give the money and properties back that they stole from the people; as well as get rid of their special privileges (like tax exemptions) then I'll start to take the pope more serious.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Biggus Dickus on February 24, 2017, 01:05:48 PM
Well the Vatican was quick to clarify, or shall we say "Correct" the Pope's comment regarding you helpless atheist.

Vatican spokesman the Rev. Thomas Rosica released a statement, as well as quoted from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.maroniteparchy.org.cy/upload/20120104/1325666629-03915.pdf)"
"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

Further clarify by adding: "[Pope Francis] is first and foremost a seasoned pastor and preacher who has much experience in reaching people," the statement said. "His words are not spoken in the context of a theological faculty or academy nor in interreligious dialogue or debate."

So there you have it, we're still going to hell...move along nothing else to see here.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on February 24, 2017, 01:56:21 PM
Now that's the Church I know and hate!  ::)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Pasta Chick on February 24, 2017, 01:58:06 PM
Quote"Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

First things first:

(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.111154393.2953/flat,800x800,070,f.u2.jpg)

Seriously though, doesn't that mean atheists are NOT going to hell?

By the general theist perception that we "just hate God and want to do whatever we want" it would certainly condemn us, but we all know what's wrong with that claim. By true definition we are atheist because we do not "know" the church was founded by Christ, and even if we did we do not "know" that this is necessary for salvation. Until such convincing evidence is presented, sounds like we're in the clear!
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on February 24, 2017, 02:20:43 PM
So, only the academic or sanctimonious stuff Il Papa utters is to be believed. His personal opinions are irrelevant to the rest of his mob?

Just another figure-head then, irrelevant to the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on February 24, 2017, 01:56:21 PM
Now that's the Church I know and hate!  ::)
You hate the Church because you believe it says atheists are going to a hell - a place that you don't believe even exists?  I'm confused.   

Btw, if memory serves, the Cathecism doesn't say that all atheists are necessarily damned to hell.  I'll have to look that up.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 23, 2017, 09:08:11 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on February 24, 2017, 01:56:21 PM
Now that's the Church I know and hate!  ::)
You hate the Church because you believe it says atheists are going to a hell - a place that you don't believe even exists?  I'm confused.   

Btw, if memory serves, the Cathecism doesn't say that all atheists are necessarily damned to hell.  I'll have to look that up.

Correct, Dredge, you are confused. Mainly because you believe the bunkum that your church tells you without critical analysis.

Personally I have no fear of hell, becsuse it does not exist in its classical form*. But I do have feelings towards those who believe in hell and think that those like me are headed towards something that is real to them. That is equivalent to them wishing me sctually tortured.

So, why should I not dislike someone, or some organisation, who wishes evil on me? Even if that evil is a figment of their imagination? However, sometimes I merely pity them for their delusion.

So, Dredge is this your true nature? Not just a creationist but also a fundamentalist? Blinded by the things you are told and read? Unable to understand that the men of your god can be evil and those who have no god at all can be good? That genetics and life experience determine a oerson's motives and actions - including what they believe in and how they use that belief? For good or evil?

Edit.

*If there is a hell in human experience PTSD could be a prime candidate - the repeated experience of traumatic events, life shattering events, health, mental and physical, destroying events. You can include things like child abuse, beatings, possibly even bring told, over and again, that you are a bad person. in that.

All things done by "men of god". But, even then the mature persons looks at another as an individual: the evil person, theist or atheist, is evil; the good person, theist or astheist, is good. Swap your broad brush for a size 00, start filling in the real details in your picture of the world, not nerely those you see through the distorting filter of your religious glasses.

Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Icarus on March 24, 2017, 02:22:22 AM
That is a well reasoned reply Gloucester.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:13:32 AM
Quote from: Father Bruno on February 24, 2017, 01:05:48 PM
Well the Vatican was quick to clarify, or shall we say "Correct" the Pope's comment regarding you helpless atheist.

Vatican spokesman the Rev. Thomas Rosica released a statement, as well as quoted from the "Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.maroniteparchy.org.cy/upload/20120104/1325666629-03915.pdf)"
"All salvation comes from Christ, the Head, through the Church which is his body," Rosica wrote. "Hence they cannot be saved who, knowing the Church as founded by Christ and necessary for salvation, would refuse to enter her or remain in her."

Further clarify by adding: "[Pope Francis] is first and foremost a seasoned pastor and preacher who has much experience in reaching people," the statement said. "His words are not spoken in the context of a theological faculty or academy nor in interreligious dialogue or debate."

So there you have it, we're still going to hell...move along nothing else to see here.
Regarding atheism, the Cathecism of the Catholic Church says,
#2125
"The imputability of this offense (atheism) can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances.  Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism ... (since some believers, due to their failures) conceal rather than reveal the true nature of God and of religion."
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Firebird on March 24, 2017, 11:43:48 PM
Quote from: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:13:32 AM

Regarding atheism, the Cathecism of the Catholic Church says,
#2125
"The imputability of this offense (atheism) can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances.  Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism ... (since some believers, due to their failures) conceal rather than reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

So in other words, it's really all your fault we're atheists? Got it. Thanks Dredge.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 25, 2017, 07:33:19 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 24, 2017, 07:13:32 AM
Regarding atheism, the Cathecism of the Catholic Church says,
#2125
"The imputability of this offense (atheism) can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances.  Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism ... (since some believers, due to their failures) conceal rather than reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

I like the arrogance that atheism is an "offense". But I suppose we should expect these people to see the whole world through the filter of a religion that has only a fraction of humans as members. Only just over half of them, including all God botherers of the Abrahamic variety. Still a lot of people but this is not a democracy.

Now, just what is, "... the true nature of God and religion ..." I wonder? But then, every religion is the "true" one to its members. That makes how many hundreds, or even thousands, of "truths" out there?
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Tank on March 25, 2017, 10:54:44 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 23, 2017, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on February 24, 2017, 01:56:21 PM
Now that's the Church I know and hate!  ::)
You hate the Church because you believe it says atheists are going to a hell - a place that you don't believe even exists?  I'm confused.  

Btw, if memory serves, the Cathecism doesn't say that all atheists are necessarily damned to hell.  I'll have to look that up.
The atheist does not believe hell exists. The theist does. So the theist is wishing on the atheist the worst fate they can think of. Worse than threatening to kill him, he wants the atheist to be tortured for all eternity What sort of cunt does that? A theist, that's who. It's the intent on the theists part that is the issue here not the lack of belief on the atheists part.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dredge on March 26, 2017, 09:11:02 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on March 23, 2017, 09:08:11 AM
Correct, Dredge, you are confused. Mainly because you believe the bunkum that your church tells you without critical analysis.
I'm wondering how you could possibly know what critical analysis I've done or haven't done.
QuotePersonally I have no fear of hell, becsuse it does not exist in its classical form*.
Well, the only way you could know this is if you had died and gone to hell.   In which case, you wouldn't be here to give us your expert opinion, since no one leaves hell once there - or so the story goes.  So how did you manage to die, go to hell and get out again to be here, back on earth, tapping away on your computer.  Fascinating.
QuoteBut I do have feelings towards those who believe in hell and think that those like me are headed towards something that is real to them. That is equivalent to them wishing me sctually tortured.
.So, why should I not dislike someone, or some organisation, who wishes evil on me? Even if that evil is a figment of their imagination? However, sometimes I merely pity them for their delusion.
I think you would have trouble finding any Christian who wants anyone to suffer in hell.  Besides, hell is being cut off from God - isn't that what an atheist wants?


QuoteSo, Dredge is this your true nature? Not just a creationist but also a fundamentalist? Blinded by the things you are told and read? Unable to understand that the men of your god can be evil and those who have no god at all can be good? That genetics and life experience determine a oerson's motives and actions - including what they believe in and how they use that belief? For good or evil?
You still haven't told me how "good" and "evil" can be defined, since everyone has a different opinion. 
For example, is homophobia "good" or "evil"?   
You also need to tell me why anyone should be "good", since, according to your "science", it doesn't matter if one is "good" or "evil". 
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2017, 12:20:25 PM
Well, Drudgery, you have followed the standard fundie pattern and made the same-old-same-old statements and asked the same-old-same-old questions over again. Stuck in your rut you are never going to want to understand.

Answering you, yet again, is a waste of time and energy. Though, it has been fun at times.

Live happily in your delusions, I'll stick with the real world, as shitty as it can be some times.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:25:28 PM
It's funny how he keeps saying 'according to your "science"' as if it's breakung through to us. I'm becoming apathetic to it's use.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 26, 2017, 07:30:05 PM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:25:28 PM
It's funny how he keeps saying 'according to your "science"' as if it's breakung through to us. I'm becoming apathetic to it's use.

Well, at least "apathetuc" could be interpreted as "without pathetic". ;)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on March 26, 2017, 12:20:25 PM
Well, Drudgery, you have followed the standard fundie pattern and made the same-old-same-old statements and asked the same-old-same-old questions over again. Stuck in your rut you are never going to want to understand.

Answering you, yet again, is a waste of time and energy. Though, it has been fun at times.

Live happily in your delusions, I'll stick with the real world, as shitty as it can be some times.
Your answers to some of my questions were somewhat shallow and childish, so in an attempt to get you thinking a bit deeper I resorted to repeated myself.  Alas, basic philosophical inquiry is obviously not something you are familiar with.  Instead, you seem content with delusions based on superficial emotions.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:09:25 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:25:28 PM
It's funny how he keeps saying 'according to your "science"' as if it's breakung through to us. I'm becoming apathetic to it's use.
What you consider to be science represents the intellectual basis of your atheism, so it's an important topic.  Perhaps you don't like the implications of your "science" being pointed out to you, which wouldn't surprise me, as it's my experience that most atheists don't. 
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Arturo on March 27, 2017, 07:30:42 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:09:25 AM
Quote from: Arturo on March 26, 2017, 07:25:28 PM
It's funny how he keeps saying 'according to your "science"' as if it's breakung through to us. I'm becoming apathetic to it's use.
What you consider to be science represents the intellectual basis of your atheism, so it's an important topic.  Perhaps you don't like the implications of your "science" being pointed out to you, which wouldn't surprise me, as it's my experience that most atheists don't.
It might not be that most athiests don't, it could be most athiests you talk about it with don't because you present it as a pejorative.

You make generalizations based on personal experience so you're basically saying that what you think of your past experiences is how the world works. That's not uncommon, even amongst athiests. "I don't see any God, you have to prove to me he exists to convince me to believe you".

Whatever implications you think you know are exactly that, implications. You're taking things at face value without trying to understand the person. Essentially, you're just prejudice because we are athiest. You haven't taken the time to hear our side presumably because you don't know how yo properly listen. And yes you can hear or read what someone says but that doesn't mean you have depth. There is a whole world out there that people don't know of because they don't know how to expose the depth of contrasting opinions. I don't blame them for not trying, they wouldn't know how if they did try. But I actually pity the people who need to be listened to because their stoties are often the most painful, full of rejection and isolation, and are often the minority in the community they live in.

Which is why I don't enjoy you telling me what I believe as if you know my whole life. I don't like people like you because you are often racist, homophobic, intolerant, and assholes to everyone you don't agree with.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Recusant on March 28, 2017, 05:23:18 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on March 26, 2017, 12:20:25 PM
Well, Drudgery, you have followed the standard fundie pattern and made the same-old-same-old statements and asked the same-old-same-old questions over again. Stuck in your rut you are never going to want to understand.

Answering you, yet again, is a waste of time and energy. Though, it has been fun at times.

Live happily in your delusions, I'll stick with the real world, as shitty as it can be some times.
Your answers to some of my questions were somewhat shallow and childish, so in an attempt to get you thinking a bit deeper I resorted to repeated myself.  Alas, basic philosophical inquiry is obviously not something you are familiar with.  Instead, you seem content with delusions based on superficial emotions.

Dredge, this post has been reported to staff.

Now, some would rightly say that your presence at HAF has resulted in some lively discussion, but that cannot in itself excuse breaking the rules of the site. In your personal text you describe yourself as somebody who is "fascinated by atheism." That may be accurate enough as far as it goes, but over the time you've been here a somewhat more problematic agenda has presented itself. It appears that you joined this site in large part to attempt to antagonize its members by ridiculing science and engaging in personal jibes. The former tactic seems to stem from a belief on your part that science stands in place of a sort of holy scripture for atheists. That is not completely inaccurate--there are no doubt some atheists who are as uncritical of science as any Fundamentalist Christian is of the Bible.

Atheists who assume that all Christians hold the ridiculous beliefs of Fundamentalists are foolish and myopic. At the same time, Christians who believe that all atheists "worship" science are ignorant and prejudiced. People here have explained several times that they regard science as merely a tool to learn about our Universe, yet you still cling to your caricature of atheism, harping on the same vein of fallacious invective you began with.

The staff have made it clear that antagonizing the members of this site for your personal gratification is not an acceptable form of behavior, and you have been given time and opportunities to modify your approach to discussions here. At this point, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that you have no intention of trying to limit yourself to civil discussion. In light of this, a lengthy suspension or perhaps a permanent ban is the next step. Members of staff who have argued for a tolerant approach have been left with little in the way of support. Do you have anything to say in your own defense?
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Magdalena on March 28, 2017, 07:35:48 AM
^^^^
Quote from: Recusant on March 28, 2017, 05:23:18 AM
Dredge...
...Do you have anything to say in your own defense?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW8KfccI.gif&hash=77812760f4599fb61301d18eb46a2698e7314c70)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Arturo on March 28, 2017, 07:47:35 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig02.deviantart.net%2Fd45c%2Ff%2F2014%2F135%2F2%2F8%2Fsonic_still_waiting_by_neslug-d7ig8t5.gif&hash=39e9dfe5990bb979f328b67bef3bbf1007837b3b)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Davin on March 28, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAgyuQHO.gif&hash=5faae19cff80daadfad1587400c06eb934ef6fc6)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Sandra Craft on March 28, 2017, 09:23:42 PM
While we're waiting, here are two arguments I routinely see from fundamentalists, and that are cropping up here, that I don't understand:

1.  treating science as a philosophy rather than a tool.  First of all, because when I look at what science is and how it works, it's very obviously a tool and if I can see that I'm not sure how anyone else could miss it. 

Second, because if you want to hold an atheist to account for philosophy gone wrong, there are several actual philosophies popular among many (tho not all) atheists to be used.  Materialism and humanism are both fairly common among atheists and both get a lot of criticism from conservative theists. 

Of course, the theist who wanted to take an atheist to task for such philosophies could run into trouble if the individual he's arguing with doesn't hold either of them, but it only takes a few moments to ask what his particular philosophy is and go from there.

2.  the "abortion is murder" thing.  Murder is a legal term, so it has a limited application.  When abortion is legal, as it is now, it is by definition not murder -- even if someone thinks it should be, it still isn't.  And calling it that during the times when it's legal just turns any debate about abortion to endless anti-choice "is so!" (because I object to it) and pro-choice "is not!" (because it's legal).

Why not use any of a handful of other terms for killing that have just as much emotional impact and are always applicable?  Like "slaughter", "butchery" (a little bit of a stretch but not much), or even just "killing"?  That makes way more sense and actually helps move the discussion along.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 28, 2017, 09:50:45 PM
^ Good post, Books.

On your first point, that science is a tool: yes, it is a set of rules that govern our activity and understanding in the way the Universe works. To call it a "philosophy" would be similar to calling maths a "philosophy" when it is also, basically, a set of rules or tools that determine how numbers can be used.

QuotePhilosophy (from Greek φιλοσοφία, philosophia, literally "love of wisdom") is the study of general and fundamental problems concerning matters such as existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. The term was probably coined by Pythagoras (c. 570 – c. 495 BC).
according to Wikipedia.

So, not a lot about quantities and qualities in the material Universe from what I can see. But it does fit religious thought quite well. So, do fundie theists have to try to draw parallels between science (essentially "materialistic") and religion (essentially "spiritual") in order to attack science at the only level they can understand comfortably? And, because there are no parallels existing, fail miserably in the attempt.

We are on very different playing fields, playing with different shaped balls to different rules in different ways - but with fundamental similarities*. Bit like American football and soccer?

* All the players are human and, in some way or another, goal seekers. Oh, different shaped goals as well...

Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Davin on March 28, 2017, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 28, 2017, 09:23:42 PM
While we're waiting, here are two arguments I routinely see from fundamentalists, and that are cropping up here, that I don't understand:

1.  treating science as a philosophy rather than a tool.  First of all, because when I look at what science is and how it works, it's very obviously a tool and if I can see that I'm not sure how anyone else could miss it. 

Second, because if you want to hold an atheist to account for philosophy gone wrong, there are several actual philosophies popular among many (tho not all) atheists to be used.  Materialism and humanism are both fairly common among atheists and both get a lot of criticism from conservative theists. 

Of course, the theist who wanted to take an atheist to task for such philosophies could run into trouble if the individual he's arguing with doesn't hold either of them, but it only takes a few moments to ask what his particular philosophy is and go from there.
I agree with you.

What I've heard people try to say, is that science came out of philosophy. And I can mostly agree with that, however I don't agree that it still is philosophy. Science is philosophy in the same way that cake is eggs, steel is coal, and beer is water.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Arturo on March 28, 2017, 09:59:42 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 28, 2017, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 28, 2017, 09:23:42 PM
While we're waiting, here are two arguments I routinely see from fundamentalists, and that are cropping up here, that I don't understand:

1.  treating science as a philosophy rather than a tool.  First of all, because when I look at what science is and how it works, it's very obviously a tool and if I can see that I'm not sure how anyone else could miss it. 

Second, because if you want to hold an atheist to account for philosophy gone wrong, there are several actual philosophies popular among many (tho not all) atheists to be used.  Materialism and humanism are both fairly common among atheists and both get a lot of criticism from conservative theists. 

Of course, the theist who wanted to take an atheist to task for such philosophies could run into trouble if the individual he's arguing with doesn't hold either of them, but it only takes a few moments to ask what his particular philosophy is and go from there.
I agree with you.

What I've heard people try to say, is that science came out of philosophy. And I can mostly agree with that, however I don't agree that it still is philosophy. Science is philosophy in the same way that cake is eggs, steel is coal, and beer is water.

Or in the way that gorillas are trees.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 28, 2017, 10:16:41 PM
Quote from: Davin on March 28, 2017, 09:57:18 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 28, 2017, 09:23:42 PM
While we're waiting, here are two arguments I routinely see from fundamentalists, and that are cropping up here, that I don't understand:

1.  treating science as a philosophy rather than a tool.  First of all, because when I look at what science is and how it works, it's very obviously a tool and if I can see that I'm not sure how anyone else could miss it. 

Second, because if you want to hold an atheist to account for philosophy gone wrong, there are several actual philosophies popular among many (tho not all) atheists to be used.  Materialism and humanism are both fairly common among atheists and both get a lot of criticism from conservative theists. 

Of course, the theist who wanted to take an atheist to task for such philosophies could run into trouble if the individual he's arguing with doesn't hold either of them, but it only takes a few moments to ask what his particular philosophy is and go from there.
I agree with you.

What I've heard people try to say, is that science came out of philosophy. And I can mostly agree with that, however I don't agree that it still is philosophy. Science is philosophy in the same way that cake is eggs, steel is coal, and beer is water.

But language moves on . . .

In Aristotle's days the style of thinking meant that "the love of wisdom" could include wisdom regarding the physical world as they perceived it- and which, as "Natural philosophy," lived on into the 19thC when "science" became dominant in the physical world and "philosophy" retreated (in use) into the conceptual world of meaning and understanding thought, life and, almost, everything. Except thst atoms, stars, galaxies, the rules of mechanics and optics, electricy and radiation etc have no intrinsic "meaning", they just "are", and are thus no part of philosophy today.

What we actually do with the fruits of science, however, can drag in philosophy in terms of the attempts to understand motives, morals, ethics and so forth.

Later: but I suppose it is expected that fundies use the meaning of "philosophy" that goes back to the 3rdC BCE. Goes in keeping with their understanding of the Universe.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on March 30, 2017, 12:37:34 AM
It's great to see you back, Books! :grin:
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Sandra Craft on March 30, 2017, 02:05:15 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 30, 2017, 12:37:34 AM
It's great to see you back, Books! :grin:

Thank you!  My brain needed a break.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on March 30, 2017, 07:54:14 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 30, 2017, 02:05:15 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on March 30, 2017, 12:37:34 AM
It's great to see you back, Books! :grin:

Thank you!  My brain needed a break.

Not quite sure how to take that . . .


Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Magdalena on March 30, 2017, 07:53:19 PM
Quote from: Recusant on March 28, 2017, 05:23:18 AM
Dredge...
...Do you have anything to say in your own defense?

Quote from: Davin on March 28, 2017, 03:39:17 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FAgyuQHO.gif&hash=5faae19cff80daadfad1587400c06eb934ef6fc6)

Quote from: Arturo on March 28, 2017, 07:47:35 AM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Forig02.deviantart.net%2Fd45c%2Ff%2F2014%2F135%2F2%2F8%2Fsonic_still_waiting_by_neslug-d7ig8t5.gif&hash=39e9dfe5990bb979f328b67bef3bbf1007837b3b)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welovebuzz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F06%2Flarge-4.gif&hash=c77fb092ef7ad0f9439fb42fec00e229164b958e)



Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Davin on March 30, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
Quote from: Magdalena on March 30, 2017, 07:53:19 PM
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welovebuzz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F06%2Flarge-4.gif&hash=c77fb092ef7ad0f9439fb42fec00e229164b958e)

(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9WuIPYV.gif&hash=5c6574d6b131f4da4945db0b0dcfaaf24b2d9420)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Magdalena on April 01, 2017, 05:49:08 AM
Dredge, dance with me while you think of an answer.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Magdalena on April 02, 2017, 02:06:38 AM
OK. No more dancing.

I apologize for such outburst.  :shifty:

Let's remember what we're waiting for.
Quote from: Recusant on March 28, 2017, 05:23:18 AM
Quote from: Dredge on March 27, 2017, 05:04:18 AM
Quote from: Gloucester on March 26, 2017, 12:20:25 PM
Well, Drudgery, you have followed the standard fundie pattern and made the same-old-same-old statements and asked the same-old-same-old questions over again. Stuck in your rut you are never going to want to understand.

Answering you, yet again, is a waste of time and energy. Though, it has been fun at times.

Live happily in your delusions, I'll stick with the real world, as shitty as it can be some times.
Your answers to some of my questions were somewhat shallow and childish, so in an attempt to get you thinking a bit deeper I resorted to repeated myself.  Alas, basic philosophical inquiry is obviously not something you are familiar with.  Instead, you seem content with delusions based on superficial emotions.

Dredge, this post has been reported to staff.

Now, some would rightly say that your presence at HAF has resulted in some lively discussion, but that cannot in itself excuse breaking the rules of the site. In your personal text you describe yourself as somebody who is "fascinated by atheism." That may be accurate enough as far as it goes, but over the time you've been here a somewhat more problematic agenda has presented itself. It appears that you joined this site in large part to attempt to antagonize its members by ridiculing science and engaging in personal jibes. The former tactic seems to stem from a belief on your part that science stands in place of a sort of holy scripture for atheists. That is not completely inaccurate--there are no doubt some atheists who are as uncritical of science as any Fundamentalist Christian is of the Bible.

Atheists who assume that all Christians hold the ridiculous beliefs of Fundamentalists are foolish and myopic. At the same time, Christians who believe that all atheists "worship" science are ignorant and prejudiced. People here have explained several times that they regard science as merely a tool to learn about our Universe, yet you still cling to your caricature of atheism, harping on the same vein of fallacious invective you began with.

The staff have made it clear that antagonizing the members of this site for your personal gratification is not an acceptable form of behavior, and you have been given time and opportunities to modify your approach to discussions here. At this point, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that you have no intention of trying to limit yourself to civil discussion. In light of this, a lengthy suspension or perhaps a permanent ban is the next step. Members of staff who have argued for a tolerant approach have been left with little in the way of support. Do you have anything to say in your own defense?
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
The Holy Father (Bless him!) is correct.

I feel so sad for atheists, but at least many of them seem to be decent people ( if a littel too snarky sometimes!)

A greedy Christian is a just a hypocrite, one who wants to "double dip" so to speak.

That is get the Christian label but still live a life not in accordance with Jesus!
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 23, 2017, 10:29:16 PM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
The Holy Father (Bless him!) is correct.

I feel so sad for atheists, but at least many of them seem to be decent people ( if a littel too snarky sometimes!)

A greedy Christian is a just a hypocrite, one who wants to "double dip" so to speak.

That is get the Christian label but still live a life not in accordance with Jesus!

We have a point of agreement there, though I have met more than one "snarky" christian. My 73 years have taught me not to judge a person on what they believe so much as what they do, the self-serving atheist is no worse than the self-serving theist, the selfless atheist is as good as the selfless theist. If two people do similar good deeds for the similar motives why does what they believe matter - humankind is the richer.

But then, I am a humanist so I do have certain "beliefs."
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
I feel so sad for atheists...

:fingertap:

Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Recusant on September 24, 2017, 04:38:10 AM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
The Holy Father (Bless him!) is correct.

I feel so sad for atheists, but at least many of them seem to be decent people ( if a littel too snarky sometimes!)

A greedy Christian is a just a hypocrite, one who wants to "double dip" so to speak.

That is get the Christian label but still live a life not in accordance with Jesus!

I think that what you view as a greedy Christian may simply interpret the Bible differently than you do. Those who subscribe to the 'prosperity gospel' way of thinking can indeed find biblical justification for their approach to life.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Icarus on September 24, 2017, 05:16:01 AM

Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM


I feel so sad for atheists, but at least many of them seem to be decent people ( if a littel too snarky sometimes!)



I feel so sad for Sister Agatha and the rest of the seriously afflicted religious humans. Most of them seem  to be decent people(if a little up tight sometimes...)
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Tank on September 24, 2017, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
I feel so sad for atheists...

:fingertap:

:fingertap: I'm with you xSilverPhinx now I'm thinking Poe and/or Troll.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2017, 08:30:21 AM
Quote from: Tank on September 24, 2017, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
I feel so sad for atheists...

:fingertap:

:fingertap: I'm with you xSilverPhinx now I'm thinking Poe and/or Troll.

Going for troll meself now.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Sandra Craft on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:24:22 AM
Quote from: Tank on September 24, 2017, 07:45:09 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 02:27:12 AM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on September 23, 2017, 10:04:37 PM
I feel so sad for atheists...

:fingertap:

:fingertap: I'm with you xSilverPhinx now I'm thinking Poe and/or Troll.

I'm not quite there yet even though that statement was naive and trollish, could be that Sister Agatha is simply the stereotypical Christian Poes like to imitate.

For now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt Sister Agatha and believe that you are simply clueless and did not actually intend to elicit irritated or angry responses. If you didn't know, that is a definition of online trolling.     
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

You know what they say, they come in herds.

Ok, maybe they don't say that...

I also only saw one. 
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Sandra Craft on September 24, 2017, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
I also only saw one.

Nevermind, I just saw that Pahu is back.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:36:46 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:33:56 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
I also only saw one.

Nevermind, I just saw that Pahu is back.

True!  :watching:

The impression Copy Pasta Preacher makes on my mind is so weak that I totally forgot!
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

You know what they say, they come in herds.

Ok, maybe they don't say that...

I also only saw one.

Isn't it "flocks" they congregate in, rather than "herds"?  :query:
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Tank on September 24, 2017, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: Dave on September 24, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

You know what they say, they come in herds.

Ok, maybe they don't say that...

I also only saw one.

Isn't it "flocks" they congregate in, rather than "herds"?  :query:
Well they are sheep.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2017, 10:30:07 AM
Quote from: Tank on September 24, 2017, 10:06:35 AM
Quote from: Dave on September 24, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

You know what they say, they come in herds.

Ok, maybe they don't say that...

I also only saw one.

Isn't it "flocks" they congregate in, rather than "herds"?  :query:
Well they are sheep.

Bah! Should have thought of that!
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Arturo on September 24, 2017, 12:02:00 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

Pahu. His threads are in the troll section. He would post things and not respond to anyone's replies. I think his most recent one is "science disproves evolution"
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Dave on September 24, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

You know what they say, they come in herds.

Ok, maybe they don't say that...

I also only saw one.

Isn't it "flocks" they congregate in, rather than "herds"?  :query:

Technically yes, but I like 'herds' better.

Imagine a stampede of religious folk coming in your direction.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2017, 03:54:49 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Dave on September 24, 2017, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 09:30:26 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on September 24, 2017, 09:23:47 AM
Quote from: jumbojak on September 24, 2017, 03:35:35 AM
I'm gone for one day... One fucking day and two preachers show up. It makes me wonder who came and went while I was exploring former Portuguese possessions in Africa...

Wait, there were two preachers?  I only saw this one -- where is the other at?

You know what they say, they come in herds.

Ok, maybe they don't say that...

I also only saw one.

Isn't it "flocks" they congregate in, rather than "herds"?  :query:

Technically yes, but I like 'herds' better.

Imagine a stampede of religious folk coming in your direction.

Came close to that at Heathrow. Picking someone up. There were about 300 Ultra Orthidox Jews milling about in Terminal 2. Then some kind of Mega Rabi arruved and the Jews all rushed towards him singing. It was terrifying and someone in security had obviously fouled up big time. They took no heed of the other waiters and passengers - it was a black tsunami of long overcoats, Homburg hats, beards and hair curls!  :shocked:
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 24, 2017, 04:26:06 PM
Quote from: Dave on September 24, 2017, 03:54:49 PM
Came close to that at Heathrow. Picking someone up. There were about 300 Ultra Orthidox Jews milling about in Terminal 2. Then some kind of Mega Rabi arruved and the Jews all rushed towards him singing. It was terrifying and someone in security had obviously fouled up big time. They took no heed of the other waiters and passengers - it was a black tsunami of long overcoats, bowler hats, beards and hair curls!  :shocked:

That does sound scary!  :panic:
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: No one on September 24, 2017, 06:28:16 PM
Just so you know, the black tsunami has a weakness. It's pork.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2017, 07:55:20 PM
Quote from: No one on September 24, 2017, 06:28:16 PM
Just so you know, the black tsunami has a weakness. It's pork.

Yeah, should have bought a bacon bagel in the snack bar as a shield!
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Ecurb Noselrub on September 25, 2017, 04:46:42 PM
I'm betting that Sister Agatha is actually Old Git.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Recusant on September 25, 2017, 04:53:08 PM
I'm pretty sure you'd lose that bet. Metadata supports the identity of SisterAgatha as a genuine new account, based in the US. I cannot say whether that account was in fact created by a sister who's a schoolteacher, but there's nothing to suggest that it's a sockpuppet account.

ETA: I understand the suspicion, given the long history of trolls and yes sockpuppets we've entertained here at HAF, but generally I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to new members. No harm is done thereby (except perhaps the risk of being taken in, which doesn't bother me) and it avoids alienating somebody who might become a genuine member of the site.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 25, 2017, 09:54:39 PM
Quote from: Recusant on September 25, 2017, 04:53:08 PM
I'm pretty sure you'd lose that bet. Metadata supports the identity of SisterAgatha as a genuine new account, based in the US. I cannot say whether that account was in fact created by a sister who's a schoolteacher, but there's nothing to suggest that it's a sockpuppet account.

ETA: I understand the suspicion, given the long history of trolls and yes sockpuppets we've entertained here at HAF, but generally I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to new members. No harm is done thereby (except perhaps the risk of being taken in, which doesn't bother me) and it avoids alienating somebody who might become a genuine member of the site.

:this:
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Icarus on September 26, 2017, 11:18:59 PM
 :this: :this:

We do not have anything like a representative number of Christians here.  Let us hope that Agatha is a for real person with whom we can exchange bits of wisdom......if not Socratic wisdom then at least rational dialogue.




Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Magdalena on September 26, 2017, 11:23:47 PM
^^
Rational dialogue.
That might be a little bit difficult with me around. She had an actual conversation with Jesus today, about me, and shared it with me/us.  :-\
I will try to behave, but I'm not promising anything.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 27, 2017, 12:08:34 AM
How does one engage in rational dialogue with another who is not thinking rationally? I wouldn't even try as it is a fruitless endeavour.

As for the conversations with imaginary friends who think very much like the person imagining them, I wouldn't think too much of it. Some people it seems like to give a 'divine' colouring to their own inner thoughts and if such delusions give meaning to their lives, make them feel less lonely and more loved then I can't help feeling sad for them. So wrapped up in their own little worlds and can't look beyond their own bellybuttons to the misery that plagues the world. God is in a child's finger painting? WTF? What about the dead child in a war zone being held by a parent, desperate in their grief? What about all the little fingers dripping with blood?

As if you need to be a believer to feel love and loved.  ::) It's all in the brain, and it's not like god is some neurotransmitter or hormone acting on our neurons.

As if you need to be a believer to be a decent individual. If anything, a compassionate atheist is less selfish than a believer who does the things they do to win cookie points and an afterlife glorifying a god, who had he been human, would have been murdered and labeled a psychopathic tyrant.

Stop freaking singing along to 'kumbaya', praying to something that either doesn't exist or doesn't care and see the indoctrination for what it is!

Well, there's my rant. I have a particular aversion to the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 27, 2017, 07:11:25 AM
Silver ssid:
QuoteHow does one engage in rational dialogue with another who is not thinking rationally?

This is indeed true but, even if the responses are bereft of rational content, it can give one an opportunity to "sharpen" one's own arguments, perhaps the equivalent of a religious person re-affirming their faith. Though my "lack of faith" has not wavered in my memory.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Icarus on September 28, 2017, 05:56:03 AM
I believe that it is entirely possible to have an intelligent conversation with a religious person.....As long as we are not talking about religion and it's demands.  We do have a whole bunch of stimulating threads that are not at all tainted with religious  pronouncements or rebuttals.  For example: Agatha could tell us about dietary things in the monastery or wherever, lots of other things for us to learn or at least discuss.

Damnmit folks, Julie Andrews was a nun and I loved her in that role....or any other role, actually.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Dave on September 28, 2017, 07:36:27 AM
Quote from: Icarus on September 28, 2017, 05:56:03 AM
I believe that it is entirely possible to have an intelligent conversation with a religious person.....As long as we are not talking about religion and it's demands.  We do have a whole bunch of stimulating threads that are not at all tainted with religious  pronouncements or rebuttals.  For example: Agatha could tell us about dietary things in the monastery or wherever, lots of other things for us to learn or at least discuss.

Damnmit folks, Julie Andrews was a nun and I loved her in that role....or any other role, actually.

Very true, very true, Icarus! I think it is even possible to exchange and compare views on tge nature of religion, its history etc, with the more reflective religious person. You may never come to an agreement but mutual respect is possible. But usually it does become a head butting exchange where no-one wins. Despite my better judgement I all too often allow myself to get caught up in these - especially when the opening ploy is domething like, "I feel sorry for you poor benighted people and really do want to understand how you got to your sorry state."

Both sides tend to be arrogant and condescending I agree but, somehow, there often seems to be a thoughtlessness in this with some religious people. Maybe it is the humanist in me. Anyone can say, "I am an atheist," for sincere and insincere reasons, even simple laziness. Honestly declaring oneself as a humanist requires consciously accepting a set of concepts - leading it to be described as a "pseudo-religion" by some. I think "belief system" is more accurate.

I should add that many atheists do follow those basic rules but seem prefer not to be thought of as humanists - there are no firm bounderies. Anti-theists are, of course, are a different matter - towards the fundamentslist end of the spectrum?
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: xSilverPhinx on September 28, 2017, 10:00:02 PM
Quote from: Icarus on September 28, 2017, 05:56:03 AM
I believe that it is entirely possible to have an intelligent conversation with a religious person.....As long as we are not talking about religion and it's demands.  We do have a whole bunch of stimulating threads that are not at all tainted with religious  pronouncements or rebuttals.  For example: Agatha could tell us about dietary things in the monastery or wherever, lots of other things for us to learn or at least discuss.

Damnmit folks, Julie Andrews was a nun and I loved her in that role....or any other role, actually.

It is possible to have an intelligent conversation with a religious person, but when that person comes here and expresses how she thinks atheists are a sad lot because we don't believe, among other things, then things get tricky. Only a saint would have the patience to deal with that... :devil:
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Biggus Dickus on September 28, 2017, 10:36:51 PM
Quote from: Icarus on September 28, 2017, 05:56:03 AM
I believe that it is entirely possible to have an intelligent conversation with a religious person.....As long as we are not talking about religion and it's demands.  We do have a whole bunch of stimulating threads that are not at all tainted with religious  pronouncements or rebuttals.  For example: Agatha could tell us about dietary things in the monastery or wherever, lots of other things for us to learn or at least discuss.

Damnmit folks, Julie Andrews was a nun and I loved her in that role....or any other role, actually.

Did you see her in "S.O.B."?



Most of my adolescent fantasy's came true in that movie, a Blake Edwards classic...great cast.


Here's the original trailer.

Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Sandra Craft on September 29, 2017, 02:13:20 AM
Quote from: Icarus on September 28, 2017, 05:56:03 AM

Damnmit folks, Julie Andrews was a nun and I loved her in that role....or any other role, actually.

I prefer my nuns to be Deborah Kerr.
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: SisterAgatha on October 03, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
I sort of like Pope Francis. He is the Oprah winfrey of Popes
Title: Re: Pope suggests it's better to be an atheist than a greedy Christian.
Post by: Biggus Dickus on October 03, 2017, 09:35:21 PM
Quote from: SisterAgatha on October 03, 2017, 08:17:35 PM
I sort of like Pope Francis. He is the Oprah winfrey of Popes

Cheap bastard owes me $40.00..."I'll get you next time Bruno", he say's as we roll out of a Buenos Aires brothel. Yeah right! (He is fun to party with, crazy bastard can sure put the rum and beer away :devil2: )