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General => Politics => Topic started by: Sandra Craft on September 20, 2011, 02:24:18 AM

Title: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Sandra Craft on September 20, 2011, 02:24:18 AM
This subject has probably been hashed over before but it's coming up again in the news.  Seems a clerk in NY refused to issue a marriage license to a female couple.  Unfortunately for the clerk, the couple's witness was a gay right activist, who took prompt action and the fit is hitting the shan, as they say. 

Here's the link:  http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/09/19/new-york-clerk-refuses-to-do-her-job-marry-gay-couples/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl17%7Csec1_lnk2%7C96935 (http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2011/09/19/new-york-clerk-refuses-to-do-her-job-marry-gay-couples/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl17%7Csec1_lnk2%7C96935)

Now, I'm not unsympathetic to people being asked to do things repugnant to them, but I know if I refused to do some part of my job the response would not be to simply make that pesky part go away.  The response would be "do it, or get out", and rightly so.  At the very least this clerk needs a reprimand on her record and re-assignment to a less responsible position (I know it can be difficult to fire civil servants).
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on September 20, 2011, 09:26:36 AM
If the clerk has an issue with signing these dcuments then she sould resign.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
From the clerk's point of view, she was obeying a higher law.  OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on September 20, 2011, 09:41:07 AM
Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
From the clerk's point of view, she was obeying a higher law.  OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
Some old wooden railway sleepers and some nails than?
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Asmodean on September 20, 2011, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
OR she can resign in protest and THEN make a martyr out of her poor, starving, unemployed self and her poor, starving, unemployed kids and her poor... Oh wait! By then, she'd have eaten the dog.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: TankSome old wooden railway sleepers and some nails than?

I was thinking more of the modern equivalent, which is outonarserdom.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Asmodean on September 20, 2011, 10:36:20 AM
Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 10:20:30 AM
I was thinking more of the modern equivalent, which is outonarserdom.
I thought the modern equivalent was all about whining (verbally or otherwise)..?  :-\
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on September 20, 2011, 01:18:53 PM
As far as I'm concerned, if she's an elected official, she is obligated to do her job. If she wants to protest gay marriage, she has every right to do that, but she should probably find other work and do it on her own time.

Of course, she'll probably equate herself with Martin Luther King or Gandhi, or something, for disobeying an "unjust law". ::)

Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Guardian85 on September 21, 2011, 06:54:32 PM
If you can't stand doing your job, get out.

If I hate snakes, I don't work in a zoo.
If I hate blood, I don't work in a hospital.
If I hate reading, i don't work in a library.
And if I hate gays, I dont work in a place where I have to deal with them.
(I don't hate any of the above. I'm just making a point.)
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Stevil on September 21, 2011, 07:35:35 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on September 20, 2011, 09:43:50 AM
Quote from: OldGit on September 20, 2011, 09:35:46 AM
OK, she should expect the usual consequence, which is martyrdom.
OR she can resign in protest and THEN make a martyr out of her poor, starving, unemployed self and her poor, starving, unemployed kids and her poor... Oh wait! By then, she'd have eaten the dog.
She could just go and create herself a God hates Fags sign and join some religious based hate group.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
But then I also understand why she might have had valid reason (from her point of view) to refuse to contract the marriage. Some believe that among lesbian couples there is higher risk of domestic abuse than among straight couples.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on October 18, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
But then I also understand why she might have had valid reason (from her point of view) to refuse to contract the marriage. Some believe that among lesbian couples there is higher risk of domestic abuse than among straight couples.
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Ildiko on October 18, 2011, 07:40:53 PM
Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:18:41 PM
But then I also understand why she might have had valid reason (from her point of view) to refuse to contract the marriage. Some believe that among lesbian couples there is higher risk of domestic abuse than among straight couples.

Some believe that the Earth is flat but we don't as a rule employ them as navigators.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
It's very relevant, so I take a neutral approach the clerk's choice: on the one hand it was his/her job to marry them, so taking matters into her own hands and refusing to do so was definitely something... daring, to say the least. But at the same time, I can respect that the clerk was willing to be defiant for something s/he thought was obviously right.

For an example if, say, an eighty year old man and eighteen year old woman were brought before the clerk and that clerk refused to marry them out of concerns from a moral point of view, could you really blame the clerk in that circumstance? On one hand you can say "that evil clerk not doing his/her job!" but on the other, I think you can certainly respect the clerk's bravery.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Xjeepguy on October 18, 2011, 08:28:39 PM
Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
It's very relevant, so I take a neutral approach the clerk's choice: on the one hand it was his/her job to marry them, so taking matters into her own hands and refusing to do so was definitely something... daring, to say the least. But at the same time, I can respect that the clerk was willing to be defiant for something s/he thought was obviously right.

For an example if, say, an eighty year old man and eighteen year old woman were brought before the clerk and that clerk refused to marry them out of concerns from a moral point of view, could you really blame the clerk in that circumstance? On one hand you can say "that evil clerk not doing his/her job!" but on the other, I think you can certainly respect the clerk's bravery.

I disagree. There is no gray area. An 80 yr old man, and an 18 yr old woman are both of legal age to get married, therefore she would also be obligated by law to grant the license, much the same way she is obligated to grant the license to the lesbian couple. The law is the law. She has no legal leg to stand on. I also do not see the clerk as brave, I see her as a bigot.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 08:35:42 PM
Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 18, 2011, 08:28:39 PM
I disagree. There is no gray area. An 80 yr old man, and an 18 yr old woman are both of legal age to get married, therefore she would also be obligated by law to grant the license, much the same way she is obligated to grant the license to the lesbian couple. The law is the law. She has no legal leg to stand on. I also do not see the clerk as brave, I see her as a bigot.

But that's what I'm saying: the law is the law, yes, but precisely the reason she's brave is because she stood up to that law for what she believed in. I'm also not sure how to react to you saying there's no problem with 80m/18f; some would say that's borderline pedophilia but whatever.

Also it's aggressive to accuse someone of being bigoted just because they don't want to wed a lesbian couple without knowing anything about the person. She might have been a bigot, sure, I'm not denying it. But then she could have had all kinds of reasons for that choice- not least the risk of domestic abuse.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Siz on October 18, 2011, 08:39:03 PM
Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 07:25:05 PM
Irrelevant, in all respects. Unless you could guarantee with 100% certainty that a relationship would degenerate to abuse you can have no opinion on the choice of others. And don't forget that a few people choose to live in a relationship that the majority of people would consider abusive. The clerk was not within her rights (as defined by her contract) to refuse to carry out the ceremony. If she has a moral issue it is with her employers, not the couple.
It's very relevant, so I take a neutral approach the clerk's choice: on the one hand it was his/her job to marry them, so taking matters into her own hands and refusing to do so was definitely something... daring, to say the least. But at the same time, I can respect that the clerk was willing to be defiant for something s/he thought was obviously right.

For an example if, say, an eighty year old man and eighteen year old woman were brought before the clerk and that clerk refused to marry them out of concerns from a moral point of view, could you really blame the clerk in that circumstance? On one hand you can say "that evil clerk not doing his/her job!" but on the other, I think you can certainly respect the clerk's bravery.

The point is, it's not her decision to make. Is she now to be enabled to contradict the law as she sees fit? That's called Anarchy.
I see no bravery there, only judgemenal, arrogant piety. Bravery would be marrying the couple in accordance with the law despite her personal misgivings. And then she can take it up with the people responsible with making the law... and good luck with that!

Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Siz on October 18, 2011, 08:44:37 PM
Quote from: Yagi-Atama on October 18, 2011, 08:35:42 PM
Quote from: Xjeepguy on October 18, 2011, 08:28:39 PM
I disagree. There is no gray area. An 80 yr old man, and an 18 yr old woman are both of legal age to get married, therefore she would also be obligated by law to grant the license, much the same way she is obligated to grant the license to the lesbian couple. The law is the law. She has no legal leg to stand on. I also do not see the clerk as brave, I see her as a bigot.

But that's what I'm saying: the law is the law, yes, but precisely the reason she's brave is because she stood up to that law for what she believed in. I'm also not sure how to react to you saying there's no problem with 80m/18f; some would say that's borderline pedophilia but whatever.

Also it's aggressive to accuse someone of being bigoted just because they don't want to wed a lesbian couple without knowing anything about the person. She might have been a bigot, sure, I'm not denying it. But then she could have had all kinds of reasons for that choice- not least the risk of domestic abuse.

And she knows nothing about the love between the hypothetical 18yo and 80yo, or the two lesbians. She's absolutely a bigot, however you dress it up.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on October 18, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
Please note Mr Yagi-Atama has been banned for trolling.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Asmodean on October 18, 2011, 10:37:08 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
Please note Mr Yagi-Atama has been banned for trolling.
Is swiftly decapitated. And, apparently, that there makes Tank all cheery-like.

And Asmodean, he approves  ;D
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 19, 2011, 02:37:36 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
Please note Mr Yagi-Atama has been banned for trolling.

And just when he was beginning to see the wedge, too.  I was hoping to find out when the possiblity of domestic abuse because legal cause to deny marriage licenses.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on October 19, 2011, 08:13:53 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on October 18, 2011, 10:37:08 PM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
Please note Mr Yagi-Atama has been banned for trolling.
Is swiftly decapitated. And, apparently, that there makes Tank all cheery-like.

And Asmodean, he approves  ;D
Making a lump of grumpy putty happy, what more could I want  :)
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on October 19, 2011, 08:15:34 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 19, 2011, 02:37:36 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 18, 2011, 08:53:58 PM
Please note Mr Yagi-Atama has been banned for trolling.

And just when he was beginning to see the wedge, too.  I was hoping to find out when the possiblity of domestic abuse because legal cause to deny marriage licenses.
He really was a piece of work. He can go and troll elsewhere.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Asmodean on October 19, 2011, 08:24:49 AM
Quote from: Tank on October 19, 2011, 08:13:53 AM
Making a lump of grumpy putty happy, what more could I want  :)
You hafta' invite me for a coffee with the hidden agenda of checking out the Wall(tm).

...The one decorated with rotting troll parts, that is.  ;D
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Ildiko on October 19, 2011, 08:58:57 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 19, 2011, 02:37:36 AM
And just when he was beginning to see the wedge, too.

I'm still trying to work out what that even means. Is it a reference to so-called Intelligent Design being the thin end of it?
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 19, 2011, 06:05:16 PM
Quote from: Ildiko on October 19, 2011, 08:58:57 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on October 19, 2011, 02:37:36 AM
And just when he was beginning to see the wedge, too.

I'm still trying to work out what that even means. Is it a reference to so-called Intelligent Design being the thin end of it?

I never got that one either.  I notice I'm now up to not believing in Mother Goose and I really miss no longer receiving the bacon.  I like bacon.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: OldGit on October 25, 2011, 05:13:56 PM
I used to wonder about that wedge, but now I love the peanuts.  Equally cryptic. ???
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Sandra Craft on October 25, 2011, 05:46:08 PM
Quote from: OldGit on October 25, 2011, 05:13:56 PM
I used to wonder about that wedge, but now I love the peanuts.  Equally cryptic. ???

I've just noticed I've graduated to watching NOVA.  Is there a video camera inside my house?
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 02:43:25 AM
There should be a sticky explaining what they all mean  ;D
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 11:23:06 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 02:43:25 AM
There should be a sticky explaining what they all mean  ;D

Just goes to show how much attention you pay  :D http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3351.0
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Sandra Craft on November 05, 2011, 06:34:13 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 05, 2011, 11:23:06 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 02:43:25 AM
There should be a sticky explaining what they all mean  ;D

Just goes to show how much attention you pay  :D http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3351.0

Altho it's a fleeting designation, I'm really looking forward to reaching 666 posts.
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 07:46:41 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 05, 2011, 11:23:06 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 02:43:25 AM
There should be a sticky explaining what they all mean  ;D

Just goes to show how much attention you pay  :D http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3351.0

*hangs head in shame*

Edit: though, upon reading them, they aren't allll really explained :P
Title: Re: Court Clerks and Gay Marriage
Post by: Tank on November 05, 2011, 07:54:12 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 07:46:41 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 05, 2011, 11:23:06 AM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 05, 2011, 02:43:25 AM
There should be a sticky explaining what they all mean  ;D

Just goes to show how much attention you pay  :D http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=3351.0

*hangs head in shame*

Edit: though, upon reading them, they aren't allll really explained :P
No, they aren't all explained. And I do love the way they top out at 1,500  ;D