I went to pick up T from daycare today, only to find a little bit of a tempest in a teapot. The second the door opened, T barreled out yelling "Does god exist?? Does god exist?? God doesn't exist, does he Mama?" Then a little girl there (I think she's going on 4 or 5) butts in with "Yuh-huh! God does too exist! He lives in our heart."
Turns out, this little girl was talking about going to church and praying to god, and T told her "God doesn't exist" and also "My mommy doesn't believe in god." They bickered about it for a few minutes and then the little girl's mom showed up to pick her up. She (the mom) was still waiting there to talk to me because she was "concerned."
So fast forward back to my arrival. I step inside, and the mom and Anna (our daycare lady) are waiting for me. Anna looks apologetic. She briefly explained what happened and then said "It's none of my business what anyone believes, I just don't want the kids to be arguing about this every day." Totally reasonable. Then the other mom says "I have NO IDEA why ANYONE would tell a small child there is no god. But I would appreciate it if your son didn't go around saying things like that to my daughter." I started to apologize and say that I would talk to him about respect (and I did) but then she continued to go on about how "appalled" she was that we would tell our child something like that.
I'm very proud of myself. I stopped apologizing, pulled myself up to my full height, and said something along the lines of "I have as much right to speak to my child honestly about my beliefs as you do to yours." Then T and I left, and talked a lot about respecting other people's beliefs.
Ughh interfering self-righteous self-appreciating mothers have to be the worst form of human existence going. She had no flipping right to stick her nose into what you tell your son or how you raise him. At least the daycare lady seems level headed.
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 01:45:06 AM
I'm very proud of myself. I stopped apologizing, pulled myself up to my full height, and said something along the lines of "I have as much right to speak to my child honestly about my beliefs as you do to yours." Then T and I left, and talked a lot about respecting other people's beliefs.
Good for you, I think you handled that perfectly.
Ali, I'm sorry you and T went through that, but I'm proud of you for how you handled it. :)
I also understand the daycare leaders to not want the children arguing about religion at daycare... but you were entirely right to tell that mother what you did. A is nearly 4 (in just over a month) and because she's an only child, I've tried to expose her to kids of various backgrounds and she's asked a lot of questions about their beliefs and ideas. No major public incidences, but she understands some people believe in God and some don't... so I just told her that she has lots and lots of time to decide for herself on the issue, but for now, she should just know what everyone's different and that's fine. We've read books that talk about different religious celebrations, and lots of stuff on science and nature. Anyways, all that to say that I think T is lucky to have you for a mom, Ali. He'll grow up being able to think critically, and that he's already doing that at such a young age is cool. :)
That really sucks but I think you handled it as well as possible.
I personally think it's good for little kids to kinda go back and forth on things they don't agree on; that's part of how they learn to think for themselves. But can also see how the daycare teacher wouldn't really want to have to referee that particular subject...at least she handled it reasonably instead of siding with the other kid's mom.
And I have no idea why anybody would tell a small child that there is a God. But wait, I do have an idea. If that's what the parents honestly believe, then they think it's in their best interest to let their children in. Likewise, when parents don't believe in God, they can do the same.
My opinions on the validity of the claim of God and whether we should really be teaching our children such a thing aside, the mother was being ridiculous. The other girl brought it up, right? So it's not T's issue for being honest. It's the other girl that shouldn't be talking about that kind of stuff, because then maybe she might not have to be oh-so-unfortunately exposed to beliefs other than hers (her parents, more like). However, I'm certain her mother wouldn't agree.
Anyway, yeah, you handled it great! I don't know what I would have done. I tend to not want to get into any conflicts about this in real life.
Kudos, Ali.
You handled that situation perfectly. Silly woman.
Agreed, very happy that you stood up for yourself. And the image of a little kid saying that makes me smile :)
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 01:45:06 AM
I went to pick up T from daycare today, only to find a little bit of a tempest in a teapot. The second the door opened, T barreled out yelling "Does god exist?? Does god exist?? God doesn't exist, does he Mama?" Then a little girl there (I think she's going on 4 or 5) butts in with "Yuh-huh! God does too exist! He lives in our heart."
Turns out, this little girl was talking about going to church and praying to god, and T told her "God doesn't exist" and also "My mommy doesn't believe in god." They bickered about it for a few minutes and then the little girl's mom showed up to pick her up. She (the mom) was still waiting there to talk to me because she was "concerned."
So fast forward back to my arrival. I step inside, and the mom and Anna (our daycare lady) are waiting for me. Anna looks apologetic. She briefly explained what happened and then said "It's none of my business what anyone believes, I just don't want the kids to be arguing about this every day." Totally reasonable. Then the other mom says "I have NO IDEA why ANYONE would tell a small child there is no god. But I would appreciate it if your son didn't go around saying things like that to my daughter." I started to apologize and say that I would talk to him about respect (and I did) but then she continued to go on about how "appalled" she was that we would tell our child something like that.
I'm very proud of myself. I stopped apologizing, pulled myself up to my full height, and said something along the lines of "I have as much right to speak to my child honestly about my beliefs as you do to yours." Then T and I left, and talked a lot about respecting other people's beliefs.
I think you handled your encounter pretty damned well, especially considering how it came about. I used to think that we should respect the religious beliefs of others too. I no longer feel that way. Why should we respect peoples' beliefs when those beliefs are contrary to our own values? I mainly mean beliefs that violence in god's name is acceptable and righteous, that women are inferior and should be subservient, that homosexuals or anyone who believes differently doesn't deserve to live, and that anyone has a right to force their views on others and judge them for their own beliefs. Religious beliefs, in my view are a lot like a disease, I can respect someone who has a disease without having any respect for that disease, except in the same sense that I would respect an angry grizzly bear.
Don't you know how much effort parents go to in order to brainwash their children into heaven?
So much effort all ruined by some godless rifraf suggesting that there might not be a god. It's going to take that mother months to get the child to stop thinking that god might not exist.
well done Ali, and well done T for being brave enough to say what he thinks. I guess no four year old child likes to be told their invisible friend doesn't actually exist, but her mother's behaviour was appalling.
A job well done! :D I definitely don't envy parents each other's company; what an annoying woman. I'd have had a little troll voice going round my head saying, "Look, she's covered in buttons. Press them. Go on. Tell her he smokes but you think that's sort of ok because, you know, there's no God or anything. See what she does. Go on, it'll be funny."
Good thing the daycare lady was nice.
You should get an Asmo in full leather and a vile mood for dealing with people like that. ;D
He would stand there, looking silent but deadly, then insult everyone involved, burn every bridge still standing and then insult them again for good measure. It doesn't accomplish anything, but I've been told it's great fun to watch. :D
Tricky one, Ali. What's your home area like regarding religion? I mean, you'd be happy to say things in an English city that you'd have to worry about in some bible-bashing American small town. Still, I can't see how you could have acted better whatever the background. Well done and good luck.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on February 28, 2012, 10:07:56 AM
well done Ali, and well done T for being brave enough to say what he thinks. I guess no four year old child likes to be told their invisible friend doesn't actually exist, but her mother's behaviour was appalling.
T,with the greatest respect, doesn't "think"anything; he is simply repeating what Ali has told him. In a highly conformist society such as appears to typify large tracts of the USA,where belief in God is almost universal and atheism is viewed as something scandalous, the mother's reaction is understandable, almost inevitable. The pity of it all is the human propensity to espouse belief-systems with an uncritical certitude and to succumb to the "us-and-them" mentality.
It's a fracked up situation, but very well handled.
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1
I ask the board, who in this situation was following scripture? Could it be the devil worshiping Ali?
Am I the only one who finds it rather intriguing how many times atheists seem to act more Christ-like than Christians?
Well done T and Ali. As Ed pointed out T just repeated what he had been told and the little girl had just repeated what she had been told.
The issue will get to be a problem if the little girl tries to build a gang up against T. You need to discuss this with the play work leader or things could get nasty.
Regards the mother stick to your guns. You are absolutely right that you both have a right to bring up your children as you see fit. But if your sone is to keep his mouth shut about the non-existance of God, then her daughter has to keep her mouth shut too.
Thanks everyone!
Yes, I agree, T is (naturally) brilliant and advanced in every way, but in this instance he was just repeating what his godless mother said; it's not like he's spent a lot of time reading and thinking and coming to his own conclusions. He asked me "Is God real?" and I told him what I think, which is that no one really knows for sure, but some people believe in god, and some people don't, and his father and I don't.
It's a small home daycare, not a big day care center, and I do have confidence that Anna (the owner of the daycare and the primary care provider) won't let the kids gang up on each other. I'll talk to her about it, but I've known Anna since T was 12 weeks old, and I have a lot of faith in her.
The only thing I'm worried about is like, what if the mom starts gossiping about it to the other parents, and then they don't invite T to their kid's birthday parties and outings and play dates and won't let their kids come to T's. That would seriously break my heart if T was getting blacklisted because they don't like me. It's nothing to do with him, he's just a little kid. Anyway, hopefully last night was the end of it.
Whether or not he was just repeating what you told him, give him a high-five for me. :D I wouldn't worry about the blacklist though, hopefully the other parents have enough sense that they won't listen to the other mom if she decides to gossip. Besides, little kids have a magical way of being friends with everyone regardless of differences, so I doubt that T will have a problem.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 28, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
Whether or not he was just repeating what you told him, give him a high-five for me. :D I wouldn't worry about the blacklist though, hopefully the other parents have enough sense that they won't listen to the other mom if she decides to gossip. Besides, little kids have a magical way of being friends with everyone regardless of differences, so I doubt that T will have a problem.
I'm with Bud on this one, if T is generally a happy, friendly, polite kid (with the odd outburst, which all kids have, lol)... other kids will like him a lot. Kids tend to make friends with one another, and then when parents see how well the kids get on together, they sometimes make friends with that child's parents -- even if one idiot has a problem with you, I doubt they all will. Especially when Anna's known you so long, and knows what a good mom you are. :)
A few months ago I was working a temp job in a store, so I put A in a similar type of home daycare for the short while I was working, and as far as the other parents there knew... I was just another single mom with a little one in daycare. Until A drew a picture of her, me, and my girlfriend standing inside my house. I wasn't there to see it, but apparently when she explained the picture, one of the other kids there said "Cool! I got 2 uncles who have a house" and a little girl said "my gramma has a girl friend!".... and they just kept playing with A. :) I was worried that maybe a parent might get uptight or something, but I'm fortunate that didn't happen. It's kinda similar to your concerns, Ali. In different ways, atheists and LGBT folks are both in a process of 'coming out' to folks. I seem to have gotten 'blessed' with a double whammy. :D
That's awesome that the kids at A's daycare could relate and just kept playing. That's definitely true about little kids. I don't think they have prejudice ingrained into them the way some adults do - even if they've been raised with those attitudes it hasn't had much time to "take." Even T and the little girl, it's not like they had the same sort of distrust or anathema towards each other that an adult Christian and an adult Atheist might feel if they got into a heated argument about religion; basically they were just arguing over who is "right". I think T will be fine; he's known most of the kids at daycare for most of his life and they are all friends; I can't imagine this is going to drive a big wedge between them at this age.
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:18:52 PM
That's awesome that the kids at A's daycare could relate and just kept playing. That's definitely true about little kids. I don't think they have prejudice ingrained into them the way some adults do - even if they've been raised with those attitudes it hasn't had much time to "take." Even T and the little girl, it's not like they had the same sort of distrust or anathema towards each other that an adult Christian and an adult Atheist might feel if they got into a heated argument about religion; basically they were just arguing over who is "right". I think T will be fine; he's known most of the kids at daycare for most of his life and they are all friends; I can't imagine this is going to drive a big wedge between them at this age.
:) you're completely right. At their age, it's not about challenging one another with actual ideas (or being offended by ideas), it generally boils down to "my mommy said this!" and "my mommy said that!" and so on an so forth.
Alas. Mommy: the Walking Wikipedia for a preschooler. ;D
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:18:52 PM
That's awesome that the kids at A's daycare could relate and just kept playing. That's definitely true about little kids. I don't think they have prejudice ingrained into them the way some adults do - even if they've been raised with those attitudes it hasn't had much time to "take." Even T and the little girl, it's not like they had the same sort of distrust or anathema towards each other that an adult Christian and an adult Atheist might feel if they got into a heated argument about religion; basically they were just arguing over who is "right". I think T will be fine; he's known most of the kids at daycare for most of his life and they are all friends; I can't imagine this is going to drive a big wedge between them at this age.
As long as they are kids, they are probably gonna argue more about lego then religion. :P
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 04:30:47 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:18:52 PM
That's awesome that the kids at A's daycare could relate and just kept playing. That's definitely true about little kids. I don't think they have prejudice ingrained into them the way some adults do - even if they've been raised with those attitudes it hasn't had much time to "take." Even T and the little girl, it's not like they had the same sort of distrust or anathema towards each other that an adult Christian and an adult Atheist might feel if they got into a heated argument about religion; basically they were just arguing over who is "right". I think T will be fine; he's known most of the kids at daycare for most of his life and they are all friends; I can't imagine this is going to drive a big wedge between them at this age.
As long as they are kids, they are probably gonna argue more about lego then religion. :P
I wish that were true of adults as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the most you ever had to argue about was legos and the true country of origin of lingonberry sauce? :D
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 04:30:47 PM
As long as they are kids, they are probably gonna argue more about lego then religion. :P
I see no argument for Legos. They are awesome. :P
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:52:28 PM
I wish that were true of adults as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the most you ever had to argue about was legos and the true country of origin of lingonberry sauce? :D
What sauce?
Lingonberry. Aka Sylt Lingon.
http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/20028710/ (http://www.ikea.com/au/en/catalog/products/20028710/)
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:52:28 PM
I wish that were true of adults as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the most you ever had to argue about was legos and the true country of origin of lingonberry sauce? :D
What sauce?
Tyttebærsyltetøy
Quote from: Asmodean on February 28, 2012, 05:22:33 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:52:28 PM
I wish that were true of adults as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the most you ever had to argue about was legos and the true country of origin of lingonberry sauce? :D
What sauce?
Tyttebærsyltetøy
Which, as we all know, came from the ancient forests of Sweden. ;D
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 28, 2012, 05:22:33 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:52:28 PM
I wish that were true of adults as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the most you ever had to argue about was legos and the true country of origin of lingonberry sauce? :D
What sauce?
Tyttebærsyltetøy
Which, as we all know, came from the ancient forests of Sweden. ;D
Bollocks. Northern Norway.
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
Which, as we all know, came from the ancient forests of Sweden. ;D
Just like Everest drinking water is from the ancient glaciers of Mt. Everest.
At least the jam is likely to be Swedish-made.
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 05:24:46 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 05:23:45 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 28, 2012, 05:22:33 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 28, 2012, 04:59:15 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 04:52:28 PM
I wish that were true of adults as well. Wouldn't it be nice if the most you ever had to argue about was legos and the true country of origin of lingonberry sauce? :D
What sauce?
Tyttebærsyltetøy
Which, as we all know, came from the ancient forests of Sweden. ;D
Bollocks. Northern Norway.
SWEDEN. Ikea says so, and Ikea would never lie to me.
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 05:25:58 PM
SWEDEN. Ikea says so, and Ikea would never lie to me.
My car is from Wolfsburg. Does that mean cars originated there?
Quote from: Asmodean on February 28, 2012, 05:26:40 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 05:25:58 PM
SWEDEN. Ikea says so, and Ikea would never lie to me.
My car is from Wolfsburg. Does that mean cars originated there?
Don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows that Sir Edward Car of Philadelphia invented cars in 1982.
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 05:28:05 PM
Don't be ridiculous. Everyone knows that Sir Edward Car of Philadelphia invented cars in 1982.
Precisely.
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 02:51:04 PM
The only thing I'm worried about is like, what if the mom starts gossiping about it to the other parents, and then they don't invite T to their kid's birthday parties and outings and play dates and won't let their kids come to T's. That would seriously break my heart if T was getting blacklisted because they don't like me. It's nothing to do with him, he's just a little kid. Anyway, hopefully last night was the end of it.
You live in a crazy country.
Quote from: Stevil on February 28, 2012, 05:42:48 PM
Quote from: Ali on February 28, 2012, 02:51:04 PM
The only thing I'm worried about is like, what if the mom starts gossiping about it to the other parents, and then they don't invite T to their kid's birthday parties and outings and play dates and won't let their kids come to T's. That would seriously break my heart if T was getting blacklisted because they don't like me. It's nothing to do with him, he's just a little kid. Anyway, hopefully last night was the end of it.
You live in a crazy country.
Yes. Yes I do. :-\
Gotta love the states! /sarcasm
you sound like an awesome mom, Ali. Don't sweat it!
sorry you had to deal with that crap. I feel very, very sorry for that girl (not even 5 yet...argh.. )
Ali, you are one cool customer. Hopefully, nothing more will come of this situation, which you handled as well as anyone could.
Now I want Swedish meatballs and lingonberry jam, and I think the closest Ikea to me is 3 hours away, somewhere in Texas. :'(
I really wanna try lingon berries ;_; sounds yum.
I think ou handled the situation very well, Ali. I know that if it had been me, after the other child's mother had said "I have NO IDEA why ANYONE would tell a small child there is no god. But I would appreciate it if your son didn't go around saying things like that to my daughter." I don't think I would have been able to avoid blurting out something like "Why? Because you can't take it?"
Nah, just kidding. I would've actually said "You have no idea on anything much, do you? Clueless!"
But that's just me. ::)
Or maybe I would've said...oh, nevermind. ;D
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 29, 2012, 03:28:49 AM
Now I want Swedish meatballs and lingonberry jam, and I think the closest Ikea to me is 3 hours away, somewhere in Texas. :'(
They don't sell köttbullar anywhere else..? ??? Or is it the jam that is IKEA special?
Quote from: Sweetdeath on February 29, 2012, 03:39:01 AM
I really wanna try lingon berries ;_; sounds yum.
They're a bit sour.
Quote from: Asmodean on February 29, 2012, 07:15:36 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 29, 2012, 03:28:49 AM
Now I want Swedish meatballs and lingonberry jam, and I think the closest Ikea to me is 3 hours away, somewhere in Texas. :'(
They don't sell köttbullar anywhere else..? ??? Or is it the jam that is IKEA special?
I haven't seen it anywhere other than IKEA.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 29, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 29, 2012, 07:15:36 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 29, 2012, 03:28:49 AM
Now I want Swedish meatballs and lingonberry jam, and I think the closest Ikea to me is 3 hours away, somewhere in Texas. :'(
They don't sell köttbullar anywhere else..? ??? Or is it the jam that is IKEA special?
I haven't seen it anywhere other than IKEA.
Me either. Although, now that Ikea is here in Denver and everyone has been and tried the sauce, it wouldn't surprise me to see it popping up in specialty shops.
I was worried about Don explaining to other children that Santa is just a story and your parents bring the presents. Fortunately in the UK it's not an expectation that children are indoctrinated with a religion, at a least not in mainstream nurseries.
Quote from: Ali on February 29, 2012, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on February 29, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 29, 2012, 07:15:36 AM
Quote from: philosoraptor on February 29, 2012, 03:28:49 AM
Now I want Swedish meatballs and lingonberry jam, and I think the closest Ikea to me is 3 hours away, somewhere in Texas. :'(
They don't sell köttbullar anywhere else..? ??? Or is it the jam that is IKEA special?
I haven't seen it anywhere other than IKEA.
Me either. Although, now that Ikea is here in Denver and everyone has been and tried the sauce, it wouldn't surprise me to see it popping up in specialty shops.
I just saw Lingonberry jam in Wegmans grocery store near Washington DC. DC tends to be a little bit of a melting pot. We can even get Jelly Babies and all sorts here.
Some day I'd like to try cloud berry though. Ah well.
Ali, you handled yourself well. :)
Cloudberries and cream. Best dessert ever.
My grandpa owns some land they grow on.
so in addition to knowing that some christian parents are assholes I now know that there is some kind of jam I should try when I make it over to Ikea next (about 40 min for me)....very odd derail.
At least it wasn't about men's shampoo. :D
Quote from: Whitney on February 29, 2012, 09:41:49 PM
so in addition to knowing that some christian parents are assholes I now know that there is some kind of jam I should try when I make it over to Ikea next (about 40 min for me)....very odd derail.
Definetly top ten in the derail dept.
I can get lingonberry jam at World Market. But I like the Swedish meatballs with the sauce at Ikea. I'm perfectly capable of making them at home, but I'm a lazy fat kid at heart and Ikea provides semi-instant gratification on the meatballs and jam front.
I love IKEA. One time, I met up with a Hetalia cosplay group in Chicago and we played hide-and-seek in IKEA for hours.
I also love Ikea. Based almost solely on Ikea, I'm pretty much convinced that Sweden can best be described as "a font of wonderful."
Quote from: Ali on March 01, 2012, 01:19:35 AM
I also love Ikea. Based almost solely on Ikea, I'm pretty much convinced that Sweden can best be described as "a font of wonderful."
Except for the swedes themselves, who are all dumbasses, at least judging by norwegian jokes.
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 01, 2012, 01:51:47 AM
Quote from: Ali on March 01, 2012, 01:19:35 AM
I also love Ikea. Based almost solely on Ikea, I'm pretty much convinced that Sweden can best be described as "a font of wonderful."
Except for the swedes themselves, who are all dumbasses, at least judging by norwegian jokes.
Hey! >:(
:P
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 01, 2012, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 01, 2012, 01:51:47 AM
Quote from: Ali on March 01, 2012, 01:19:35 AM
I also love Ikea. Based almost solely on Ikea, I'm pretty much convinced that Sweden can best be described as "a font of wonderful."
Except for the swedes themselves, who are all dumbasses, at least judging by norwegian jokes.
Hey! >:(
:P
You're the exception that confirms the rule...
I was just wondering about how old your kids were? I have a nephew is just a few days from 6. He mostly watches educational shows or documentaries on dinosaurs and the planets on netflix. His parents have just never brought the topic up. I am wondering when he will just come up with the question himself, or will he come up to his parents after school to ask who God is.
Quote from: envilid on March 07, 2012, 04:51:09 AM
I was just wondering about how old your kids were? I have a nephew is just a few days from 6. He mostly watches educational shows or documentaries on dinosaurs and the planets on netflix. His parents have just never brought the topic up. I am wondering when he will just come up with the question himself, or will he come up to his parents after school to ask who God is.
My son is almost 4. The reason it came up is that my parents are very religious, and they have been talking about god to him, so then he comes back to me and says things like "Is God real? Is Jesus really going to protect me?" I had no intention of talking to him about this stuff this early, but since my parents have pushed the issue, I have been answering him as honestly as I can. What I have actually told him is that no one really knows for sure if there is a god, and some people believe and some people don't, and either way is fine. But then he asked if I believe, and if his dad believes, so I answered honestly "not really". So he immediately "decides" that he doesn't believe either. Which just means that he's parroting back what I said, you know?
I only just came across this thread, but I just wanted to say good for you!
I think you handled it perfectly. Does that woman really think that everyone believes in God? Or does she think Atheist parents should lie to their children? Either way, it makes no sense.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 10, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
I only just came across this thread, but I just wanted to say good for you!
I think you handled it perfectly. Does that woman really think that everyone believes in God? Or does she think Atheist parents should lie to their children? Either way, it makes no sense.
Religion is not supposed to make sense. Didn't you know that already?
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 10, 2012, 05:29:39 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 10, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
I only just came across this thread, but I just wanted to say good for you!
I think you handled it perfectly. Does that woman really think that everyone believes in God? Or does she think Atheist parents should lie to their children? Either way, it makes no sense.
Religion is not supposed to make sense. Didn't you know that already?
I've had friends tell me "to me, my faith makes perfect sense!" and I always figure what they're really saying is, "to me, my faith satisfies my emotional needs" which is something just slightly different from making sense. ;)
I figure that mother at the daycare was perhaps one of those folks, who does get a lot of emotional satisfaction out of her faith, and wants her daughter to, also. I mean, if you believe in God, I can see how answering your children's questions would be easier, at least. Family pet/beloved grandparent/etc pass away? They're in heaven. Why's the sky blue? God made it that way. Who'll keep you safe? God will. Who loves you? God does. Etc etc. When I was a kid, that's the version of God my parents gave me -- a happy, fuzzy kind sort of being up in heaven who wants everyone safe and happy. Imagine my surprise when I found out life didn't work that way. :P
Quote from: AmicaleImagine my surprise when I found out life didn't work that way. :P
And when you read Leviticus, Deuteronomy and 2nd Samuel.
Quote from: Amicale on March 10, 2012, 05:46:16 PM
I've had friends tell me "to me, my faith makes perfect sense!" and I always figure what they're really saying is, "to me, my faith satisfies my emotional needs" which is something just slightly different from making sense. ;)
You know, that's how it's always seemed to me as well -- that faith is a matter of meeting emotional needs, esp. the need for comfort. But I've had a number of religious people tell me, in almost offended tones, that it has nothing to do with emotional needs and certainly not comfort, as if there's something wrong with that.
All other things being equal, I don't see anything wrong in believing something for emotional reasons, and I have great respect for the desire for comfort. There's more than enough pain and difficulty in life that's automatic, or that we can't do a single thing about once it arrives, so I say if you find something that comforts you, cling to it. There's no shame in that (and again, that's based on all other things being equal).
What puts my back up is the assumption that what comforts A will also, or
should also, comfort B and if it clearly doesn't then B is just being difficult and needs to be "re-educated" or even punished. And as much as this is my problem with religious fundies, it's also part of my problem with atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens. Defend the separation of church and state to your death, yes, but keep your public opinions out of peoples private lives. OK, rant over.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 10, 2012, 07:30:47 PM
Quote from: Amicale on March 10, 2012, 05:46:16 PM
I've had friends tell me "to me, my faith makes perfect sense!" and I always figure what they're really saying is, "to me, my faith satisfies my emotional needs" which is something just slightly different from making sense. ;)
You know, that's how it's always seemed to me as well -- that faith is a matter of meeting emotional needs, esp. the need for comfort. But I've had a number of religious people tell me, in almost offended tones, that it has nothing to do with emotional needs and certainly not comfort, as if there's something wrong with that.
All other things being equal, I don't see anything wrong in believing something for emotional reasons, and I have great respect for the desire for comfort. There's more than enough pain and difficulty in life that's automatic, or that we can't do a single thing about once it arrives, so I say if you find something that comforts you, cling to it. There's no shame in that (and again, that's based on all other things being equal).
What puts my back up is the assumption that what comforts A will also, or should also, comfort B and if it clearly doesn't then B is just being difficult and needs to be "re-educated" or even punished. And as much as this is my problem with religious fundies, it's also part of my problem with atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens. Defend the separation of church and state to your death, yes, but keep your public opinions out of peoples private lives. OK, rant over.
It was a very good rant. ;D
I know exactly what you mean. Even in the atheist community, I'm sometimes still a bit surprised to hear from people (elsewhere, not really here) that the things I'm interested in, I shouldn't be. I'm not a Christian or a theist, but I am interested in spirituality, to a degree. That, and philosophy. I sympathize with several Buddhist ideas, for instance -- much of it has a lot to say about how to live well, how to treat others, etc. I'm also interested in dialogue between theists and non-theists, in terms of learning to coexist and respect one another, rather than both sides being so darned divided. But sometimes I'm given the impression that atheists have to be in one camp, theists firmly in another, and ne'er the two shall meet. It's too bad that mentality exists, really. There's a lot of progress we could make if we took a good look at the things we did have in common. Which is why I respectfully disagree with anyone who says "I'd NEVER have a good friend who was a Christian/atheist/etc etc." Nonsense. We're all people. We can find a LOT of good in one another that has nothing to do with religion. Which is why I don't understand people like the mother at Ali's son's daycare -- just assuming that people HAVE to be 'a certain way', or else they're flawed. Sigh.
/my own rant over. :P
Quote from: Amicale on March 10, 2012, 07:52:49 PM
I know exactly what you mean. Even in the atheist community, I'm sometimes still a bit surprised to hear from people (elsewhere, not really here) that the things I'm interested in, I shouldn't be. I'm not a Christian or a theist, but I am interested in spirituality, to a degree. That, and philosophy. I sympathize with several Buddhist ideas, for instance -- much of it has a lot to say about how to live well, how to treat others, etc. I'm also interested in dialogue between theists and non-theists, in terms of learning to coexist and respect one another, rather than both sides being so darned divided. But sometimes I'm given the impression that atheists have to be in one camp, theists firmly in another, and ne'er the two shall meet. It's too bad that mentality exists, really. There's a lot of progress we could make if we took a good look at the things we did have in common. Which is why I respectfully disagree with anyone who says "I'd NEVER have a good friend who was a Christian/atheist/etc etc." Nonsense. We're all people. We can find a LOT of good in one another that has nothing to do with religion. Which is why I don't understand people like the mother at Ali's son's daycare -- just assuming that people HAVE to be 'a certain way', or else they're flawed. Sigh.
/my own rant over. :P
Actually the behavior you describe there Amicale has a rather Christian ring to it. Guardian, I think, noted this in another thread: funny how non-believers seem to don the Christian principles at the same juncture that a lot of Christians don a judgmental mindset. And non-believers are suppose to be the vile, immoral of the two sects.
Quote from: Truthseeker on March 10, 2012, 10:04:21 PM
Actually the behavior you describe there Amicale has a rather Christian ring to it. Guardian, I think, noted this in another thread: funny how non-believers seem to don the Christian principles at the same juncture that a lot of Christians don a judgmental mindset. And non-believers are suppose to be the vile, immoral of the two sects.
See, I'm smarter then I look! ;)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on March 10, 2012, 07:30:47 PM
All other things being equal, I don't see anything wrong in believing something for emotional reasons, and I have great respect for the desire for comfort. There's more than enough pain and difficulty in life that's automatic, or that we can't do a single thing about once it arrives, so I say if you find something that comforts you, cling to it. There's no shame in that (and again, that's based on all other things being equal).
Hmm... Haven't really thought of it that way... Perhaps part of the reason why I seem to be immune to religion - even at an age when I really had no way of knowing better - is that I revel in misery and care little for emotional comfort or sympathies, thus turning a major "why" of belief subjectively useless...
I like my way though. Someone close went toes-up? Well, I can bitch and moan and be depressed about it for a week, and then I'm done with it. If I masked the issue in a mosaic of emotional comforters, however, I think it would take longer to "go away" and ultimately be just as difficult.
Self psychoanalysis aside, I see your point, but I contest that using self-desception for comfort is not only dishonest, but also potentially dangerous. To use a somewhat out-there parallel: you can use heroin for your head ache - it will kill the pain very effectively, after all, and make you feel good in the process. However, using paracetamol, while less effective in regards to pain management, is far more legal with far less risk of ending up a street junkie.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 11, 2012, 08:15:25 AM
To use a somewhat out-there parallel: you can use heroin for your head ache - it will kill the pain very effectively, after all, and make you feel good in the process. However, using paracetamol, while less effective in regards to pain management, is far more legal with far less risk of ending up a street junkie.
Which is where the "all things being equal" comes in.
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 10, 2012, 05:29:39 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 10, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
I only just came across this thread, but I just wanted to say good for you!
I think you handled it perfectly. Does that woman really think that everyone believes in God? Or does she think Atheist parents should lie to their children? Either way, it makes no sense.
Religion is not supposed to make sense. Didn't you know that already?
Yes, everyone believes in dog! :D
Never had kids. Thank god though, because I would be a horrible father. Almost everyone I know says that I corrupt the true tenets of the Christian faith. >:(