Atheists, do you agree with this?

[Sandra Craft]

Because I have those close to me to consider, that's why. It's as simple as that.

But are you not higher than them? Animals eat or be eaten, and you and I are just animals. Without souls, noting separates us from slugs except appearance and intelligence.

Do chimps and dolphins have souls? They care for those close to them.

Watch this video of this mother cat hugging her kitten.  Does she care for her kitten?  Does she have a soul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw4KVoEVcr0

And then there's this:  Leopard and Baboon

And this:  Crow and Kitten

The more I learn about animals the more the whole concept of "soul" becomes irrelevant, and the more compassion and empathy seem universal, rather than particular to humans.  In fact, it seems to me that the further one goes up the intelligence scale, the likelier these qualities become so dismissing them seems an attempt to reduce humanity to the insect level.

[The Magic Pudding]

Live for yourself...there's no one else
More worth living for
Begging hands and bleeding hearts will only cry out for more

There can be someone else, but perhaps not for someone who thinks this way.

Humans are free to see the world in their own way, and to make of it what they can.
I value various things and if they didn't exist I'd be poorer, here's a few of them:
Wombats, The Parthenon, Sydney Harbour, Hat Head, and Beth Orton.
I value the concept of fairness, in some world views I see beauty, others are ugly.
I could have values that allowed me to cheat and steal a beautiful house, but then I'd live in an ugly world.

But are you not higher than them? Animals eat or be eaten, and you and I are just animals. Without souls, noting separates us from slugs except appearance and intelligence.

I am an animal, one that's mostly escaped the oppressive tooth and claw existence.
Benevolence is now possible, I'm free to see beauty in, well not in a slug so much but snails are interesting.

[xSilverPhinx]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

It's bad social economics (not in the finance sense but in the social animal interaction sense)

This^

Social darwinism is just too simplistic. Humans are animals capable of complex social interactions.

But are you not higher than them? Animals eat or be eaten, and you and I are just animals. Without souls, noting separates us from slugs except appearance and intelligence.

Are you saying that I should treat everyone outside the circle of people I consider to be close as slugs?

(Not in the metaphorical sense, but as literal slugs)

I also think it's a bit presumptuous how you think that if there are souls, then only people would have them.

Also, this topic is deviating slightly, you think people would need a thing called a soul to be good in the general sense?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Because I have those close to me to consider, that's why. It's as simple as that.

But are you not higher than them? Animals eat or be eaten, and you and I are just animals. Without souls, noting separates us from slugs except appearance and intelligence.

Do chimps and dolphins have souls? They care for those close to them.

Watch this video of this mother cat hugging her kitten.  Does she care for her kitten?  Does she have a soul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw4KVoEVcr0

And then there's this:  Leopard and Baboon

And this:  Crow and Kitten

The more I learn about animals the more the whole concept of "soul" becomes irrelevant, and the more compassion and empathy seem universal, rather than particular to humans.  In fact, it seems to me that the further one goes up the intelligence scale, the likelier these qualities become so dismissing them seems an attempt to reduce humanity to the insect level.

And this famous video of a herd of water buffalo overcoming their natural fear and saving a calf from a pride of lions (and a croc to boot!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

[xSilverPhinx]

The buffalo one is cool, but even though they overcame their natural fear, they're still doing what's instinctive to them. What's really interesting is when totally unrelated animals do that. One of my favourite examples is this hippo saving an antelope from a crocodile.

It would be interesting to know (which the video doesn't inform) whether these animals are females acting out their maternal instincts or in the case of males, though hormonally this would be rarer I guess - some sort of group (pride, pack, herd) instincts. For some odd reason, sort of adopt other animals of other species as their offspring. I would be skeptical to go so far as to say that they feel compassion, though.

Oxytocin, which is the hormone which affects both attachment and bonding (mostly in females), is higher in females. I they could test these animals after watching them do these things, then that might explain the behavior in some part, especially if they're going through a peak.

Sorry if I get carried away, this is a topic of rather intense interest to me

[Sandra Craft]

I would be skeptical to go so far as to say that they feel compassion, though.

Whereas I'm becoming more leery of claiming things like compassion and empathy as purely human, rather than the same things other animals experience,  dressed up to flatter the ego.  I heard something awhile ago that I really like -- humans are animals who are just smart enough to have convinced ourselves that we're not.

[xSilverPhinx]

I would be skeptical to go so far as to say that they feel compassion, though.

Whereas I'm becoming more leery of claiming things like compassion and empathy as purely human, rather than the same things other animals experience,  dressed up to flatter the ego.  I heard something awhile ago that I really like -- humans are animals who are just smart enough to have convinced ourselves that we're not.

I'm convinced that animals such as chimps and dolphins feel empathy similar to ours if not the same, I'm just not as much with others. Could be the same sort of empathy we feel, or some different form of empathy, I don't know. I'm basing this claim (though it's speculation on my part) on the differences in brain structure, parts and complexity.

humans are animals who are just smart enough to have convinced ourselves that we're not.

That's a good quote. I'm quite sure though that people who don't think they're very similar to other animals may be smart, but are ignorant

Edited to add:

There's a documentary called The Human Animal (this is part one - The Language of the Body) which goes into the subject, for whoever's interested.

[Tank]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

Because we're not fucking wankers.

[Too Few Lions]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

Because we're not fucking wankers.

I couldn't agree more. We do seem to get quite a few Christians coming onto this forum thinking that you can't behave in a civilised and altruistic way unless you believe in their god, without realising that morality and ethics are something quite separate from belief in a deity.

[Fi]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

Because we're not fucking wankers.

I couldn't agree more. We do seem to get quite a few Christians coming onto this forum thinking that you can't behave in a civilised and altruistic way unless you believe in their god, without realising that morality and ethics are something quite separate from belief in a deity.

Ugh, yes. They enter discussions with a preconceived notion that all atheists are selfish asshats with no common decency. (Nevermind how many Christians there are that are selfish asshats with no common decency...)

If the fear of god/the desire for heavenly brownie points is the only thing keeping some people from murdering, raping, stealing, and programming spambots, I am officially scared. Because it seems to be the implication. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Too Few Lions]

If the fear of god/the desire for heavenly brownie points is the only thing keeping some people from murdering, raping, stealing, and programming spambots, I am officially scared. Because it seems to be the implication. Correct me if I'm wrong.

you're right, and I'm officially a little worried too if the belief in a disapproving sky fairy is the only thing stopping some Christians from murdering, raping, stealing and generally acting in an antisocial and criminal way.

[The Magic Pudding]

If the fear of god/the desire for heavenly brownie points is the only thing keeping some people from murdering, raping, stealing, and programming spambots, I am officially scared. Because it seems to be the implication. Correct me if I'm wrong.

you're right, and I'm officially a little worried too if the belief in a disapproving sky fairy is the only thing stopping some Christians from murdering, raping, stealing and generally acting in an antisocial and criminal way.

I wouldn't let this worry you 'cause it kinda balances out.
You wake up one day and there's no god, they say so on the news.
There'll be extra killing and mayhem from those freed from god's restraint.
But there'll be all those who kill for god who'll no longer have a reason.

[Asmodean]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

Oh, I do live for myself. However, I mostly manage not to do so at the expense of others.

[xSilverPhinx]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

Because we're not fucking wankers.

I couldn't agree more. We do seem to get quite a few Christians coming onto this forum thinking that you can't behave in a civilised and altruistic way unless you believe in their god, without realising that morality and ethics are something quite separate from belief in a deity.

If the fear of god/the desire for heavenly brownie points is the only thing keeping some people from murdering, raping, stealing, and programming spambots, I am officially scared. Because it seems to be the implication. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, so much so that I've become very preoccupied with sniffing and weeding those out. If I had the power, I would order a complete check on those...

[Sandra Craft]

Incidentally, why don't any of you guys agree with this? Why not live for yourself?

Because we're not fucking wankers.

That's the best reply so far, in the least amount of words.  I believe that qualifies for extra points.