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Happy Atheists, I need help being happy with death

Started by Im_Freaking_OUT, December 25, 2010, 01:10:06 PM

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TheJackel

Death is not to be feared in my view. Why? because even if I go into complete oblivion consciously I know there is no fear where fear is no longer applicable. There is no sadness, happiness, or even inconvenience to worry about.  But this does not mean that you can't be happy or comfortable with death because technically we will always exist in some form or another. Hence what is me becomes and emerges into something else. What was me may become the stuff of the birth of a new star that may give the rise to new life. My existence will be eternal regardless if I am aware of it or not. So why be so sad? I say enjoy the life you have the best you can :)

Wilson

Jackel, you talk as if fear of death is a matter of logic.  It Isn't.  We evolved to fear death so we would live long enough for our genes would go forward.  Obviously oblivion is not something to be feared.  So we can try to talk ourselves out of this irrational fear, but for most of us, it will never be a total victory.

Whitney

At 21 you still have a lot of life left to live and are still young enough to very very very easily change the course of your life if you put your mind to it.  Instead of worrying about death worry about what you want out of life then develop a plan to achieve it.  Even if you were 80 years old it would be a shame to spend time worrying about death; there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Btw, life doesn't end at 30 and no one other than high school students treats people who are over 30 like they are old timers; life is really just starting at that age (I'm about to turn 29 and am not too bothered over it).  Most people have their prime years from around age 25 up to 40 (or older if you take good care of yourself).

Existentialist

I'm going to go completely off the wall now but this is my way of digging myself out of my own occasional night terrors about the fact that one day soon I am going to kick the bucket.  It might sound a bit like denial or reversion to theist ways of thinking but I assure you it is a great distance away from that.  

It is essential, absolutely essential, that we make a distinction between objective death and subjective death, as you alluded to in your opening post.  Only then can we be a bit more relaxed about using the terms death and life without some qualification about whether it's objective death or subjective death that we're talking about.  We all know that human beings die - we can observe it.  That is objective death - the observation of death from the point of view of an uninvolved object.  Subjective death is more problematic.  No human being has ever experienced the observation of their own death from the point of view of themselves as the subject.  I think there is a good reason for this and it's not just that the brain ceases to observe simultaneously with the body giving out.  The fact is, subjective death doesn't exist - no one has seen it, or reported back from it.  And no one will, at any time for the rest of the time left in the universe.

What I think happens is that we take our knowledge of objective death, then we take our position as a subject and impose on ourselves the imaginary experience as an object witnessing someone else's death.  This is terrifying - and inaccurate.  The fact that we can imagine it doesn't make it any more accurate a view of what will actually happen.   It's a wholly imaginary scenario.  

To cut a long story short, I take the position that our death doesn't exist.  The only thing we can experience as human beings is life.  We cannot experience death or have any concept of it.  There is no model of death that any witnesses have ever come up with, so there is no practical point to contemplating it, and no point in likening it some known experience, because they are all based on the experience of life, and can only be applied to life.  Even Irvine Yalom's "lights out" analogy is inaccurate, or imagining the universe 5 billion years hence without me is just a useless variation on that, because life is the only human experience possible.  Basically, we do not die - and we can't die.  We have no choice in this.  What is happening when we experience the fear of death is that we are convincing ourselves that we do have such a choice.  We you don't.  The only option we have is to live, now and for the rest of our human experience.

I wouldn't even start saying anything like 'enjoy the little time you have to the full'.  There is absolutely no need to make any additional effort to enjoy life as a result of some imaginary death that is never going to come.  Life is the only experience we can have.  I do suspect that what has happened as a result of the development of capitalism, which depends on fear to control people, alongside religion, is that the concept of death was invented by the church so that they could invent the afterlife as a promise of more life.  But it's all a big con.  Even if it turns out that any of us will die tomorrow - we already have all the life we will ever need, and death is an invention.  Oh it's there alright - if you imagine yourself leaving your own body, witnessing your own death and then superimposing that experience back onto yourself as a subject.  But if you do that I would have to ask you - what did you do there again?  It didn't look like dying to me!

There are many variations on the theistic con-trick, for example imagining yourself as an old person looking back on an unfulfilled life, and manically going round the world experiencing as much as possible in anticipation of that fearful day.  I say, let the old man deal with that in his own way, I'm not going to go chasing dreams just for his benefit.  Dreams are often expensive anyway, and most of them have a huge carbon footprint.

Just to mention one or two other things, I am not at all convinced that we evolved to 'fear death'.  Animals show a lot of fear, but I doubt they fear anything so abstract as death.  They fear pain, they fear being constrained, but I don't see any evidence that they actually fear death, or have any concept of what it is.  I don't see why humans would have evolved with it.  

So the message from an atheist standpoint is far, far more optimistic, uplifting and reassuring than anything the religions can come up with.  Individually, we are alive, and we always will be, there is no future, there is no past, we all have life, we needn't let unrealisable imaginings like death get in the way of our present enjoyment of the act of being.  

Reading this just once probably won't do the trick, it is essential to develop some of these ideas as habits of thinking rather than just a one-off statement of an argument.

I am always open to debate on any of this, by the way.

The Magic Pudding

My daughter is doing a 1.5 km ocean swim on Sunday, from one headland to another.
I think if I did something like that everyday, there would be no fear left over for bedtime.

TheJackel

Quote from: "Wilson"Jackel, you talk as if fear of death is a matter of logic.  It Isn't.  We evolved to fear death so we would live long enough for our genes would go forward.  Obviously oblivion is not something to be feared.  So we can try to talk ourselves out of this irrational fear, but for most of us, it will never be a total victory.

Of course it will never be a "Total victory".. It's about finding worth in one's self, or value of what we are even after we are gone. Everyone including myself will still have fear of death, but knowing death is not the end of our worth can ease the fear to some degree. It makes it easier to cope with even under the most grim thought of conscious oblivion.. However, what I think most people fear most is the process of death, and how they die. We don't want to suffer or even lose everything that we have to which includes ourselves. So it was not intended as some dry logic. :/

xSilverPhinx

Quote from: "Wilson"Jackel, you talk as if fear of death is a matter of logic.  It Isn't.  We evolved to fear death so we would live long enough for our genes would go forward.  Obviously oblivion is not something to be feared.  So we can try to talk ourselves out of this irrational fear, but for most of us, it will never be a total victory.


I also think that it's sort of pointless to use logical arguments to try and ease a phobia - those don't really seem all that susceptible to logic.

@ Im_Freaking_OUT

There might be something to gain in trying to see and think about things in a different way, as if slowly training yourself. You could try it, and if you feel it's going nowhere and the stress is too much, seek a doctor, and maybe some anxiety pills or something might be better help or needed beforehand.

As another poster has written earlier, death is non existence and therefore nothing to be feared. You would have to exist to experience anything, and that includes fear. That sort of thinking works for me.

It was Mark Twain who said that he had been dead (non existent) for billions of years prior to his birth and felt no inconvenience because of it.  :)
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


TheJackel

Actually it's not about erasing fear, it's about giving a positive outlook. Even I will fear death because it's only natural to do so. However, I find comfort in knowing that the worst case scenario is the Mark Twain analogy.. However, if you want to see the beauty of our being, what purpose we will have even after we die, you can watch this video to understand where I come from..

[youtube:1yxzc78g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk[/youtube:1yxzc78g]

We no longer need to bow down, or fear the Universe we live in. And that is because we are apart of it, and always will be.

xSilverPhinx

Just thought I'd add, looks like you're experiencing more of existential angst than a fear of death or dying (at least to my interpretation - both are subtly different). If you're more philosophically inclined, you could read something by Sartre perhaps, Heidegger or another of the existentialists.
I am what survives if it's slain - Zack Hemsey


Wilson

Quote from: "Existentialist"I am not at all convinced that we evolved to 'fear death'.  Animals show a lot of fear, but I doubt they fear anything so abstract as death.  They fear pain, they fear being constrained, but I don't see any evidence that they actually fear death, or have any concept of what it is.  I don't see why humans would have evolved with it.
Animals operate much more on instinct than humans do.  Humans are conceptual thinkers, logical thinkers.  It isn't logical to fear oblivion - but we do.  So if our actions aren't guided by instinct as much as those of animals are, and logic doesn't give us any reason to fear death, what's left?  The built-in emotion of fear; it's necessary to prevent us from taking too many stupid chances.  If you didn't fear death, wouldn't it be fun to jump out of an airplane and experience free fall for a minute or so?  I believe that humans are so contemplative - able to envision the future - compared to other animals that a new mechanism was necessary to prevent us from taking unnecessary risks.

KebertX

Relax. For me, the fact that I am not permanent, that I will not last forever, gives my existence meaning.
That sounds counter intuitive, but can you honestly imaging how pointless your existence would be if it were eternal? You have a window of opportunity, not an unending timeline. Use that to motivate you to make the most of what you have. Live, Love, Learn, Start a damn revolution!

And if it makes you uncomfortable to know that one day, you are not going to exist, (This used to give me chills) relax! Death is the end-all of our existence, in which all people become equal. The endless thoughtless void of nonexistence, actually comforts me. Someday, I'll slip away, and my adventure will be over. I will have left my karmic imprint on the universe, and readily be recycled into the energy system. I don't know, to me, the idea is beautiful.

"Death is nothing to us.
Since when we are,
death has not come.
And when death has come,
we are not."
~ Epicurus.
"Reality is that which when you close your eyes it does not go away.  Ignorance is that which allows you to close your eyes, and not see reality."

"It can't be seen, smelled, felt, measured, or understood, therefore let's worship it!" ~ Anon.

februarystars

I love Epicurus's view on death, and it's one that I completely agree with. People are so frightened of death, but there's no need to fear it, because once you die, any thoughts or emotions or consciousness are gone. Worry and fear are emotions that insinuate that something bad will happen in the future. To fear death is pointless because in the very instant that it happens, your conscious ability to fear it has ceased to exist.
Mulder: He put the whammy on him.
Scully: Please explain to me the scientific nature of "the whammy."

wildfire_emissary

This thread, IT'S ALIVE!
The Pudding posted a Dylan Thomas, I'll be posting an Uncle Walt Whitman.

QuoteOh me! O life! of the questions of these recurring,
Of the endless traines of the faithless, of cities fill’d with the
foolish,
Of myself forever reproaching myself, (for who more foolish
than I, and who more faithless?)
Of eyes that vainly crave the light, of the objects mean, of the
struggle ever renew’d
Of the poor results of all, of the plodding and sordid crowds I
see around me,
Of the empty and useless years of the rest, with the rest me
intertwined,
The question, O me! so sad, recurringâ€"What good amid these,
O me, O life?
Answer.
That you are hereâ€"that life exists and identity,
That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse.
[spoiler:11c283yy][/spoiler:11c283yy]
"All murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets." -Voltaire

ragarth

I don't think anyone but the deluded ever 'get over' the fact that they're going to die. We only cease fearing death either by pretending it's not an issue or by inventing fairy tales. Death is a cosmic joke, a necessity to have evolution within a finite space and with finite resources, but still sick. We are not, however, simply animals acting out our drives in nature anymore, we have the capacity to think, reason, and forge answers to problems that don't involve claw and tooth. Take that fear of death and apply it to finding a solution--that's what I'm doing. I'm going for a degree in cognitive science with the express idea that, even if I don't see a cure to natural death in my lifetime, I will have made a major contribution both to curing it and to a society that can survive effective immortality before my time is up.

februarystars

Quote from: "ragarth"I don't think anyone but the deluded ever 'get over' the fact that they're going to die.

I really disagree. I don't think I'm deluded, and I'm already way over the fact that I'm going to die. I'd rather not die right now, but if I did, it's not like I would look back and regret all the things I didn't finish or accomplish, or miss my friends and family. I think people who fear death don't actually fear death itself but what comes after death. Many people fear the judgement that will affect their eternal souls, and many fear the uncertainty of what exactly happens after the body dies. I firmly believe that when the body dies, the consciousness dies, and there's nothing that suggests to me that anything to the contrary could possibly happen. I'm very comfortable with this.
Mulder: He put the whammy on him.
Scully: Please explain to me the scientific nature of "the whammy."