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Islam and Atheism

Started by Fatih, March 24, 2018, 08:47:44 AM

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Tom62

The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract.
Robert A. Heinlein

Fatih

Quote from: Tom62 on March 25, 2018, 07:47:48 AM


based on?

Without explanation and evidence these kind of things are just for the people whose mind are open for brainwash because of illiteracy.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Fatih

Quote from: Guardian85 on March 24, 2018, 11:10:23 PM
The ottomans took boys from their families in the Balkans and Eastern European countries, force marched them to Turkey, and abused them until their spirits were broken and then brainwashed them into being obedient servants. Nothing willing about that.
And you called the ottomans just.

I think somepeople has really tallent to turn every good thing to evil.
First of all devsirmes were not slaves. Generally they were war orphans without family and they were protected by sending them to Turkish wealthy families. The biggest evidence that they were not slaves nor treated bad is, as I said before Ottomans has very famous and successful viziers (King's right hands) like
Rum Mehmed Paşa,
Veli Mahmud Paşa,
Yunus Paşa ,
Rüstem Paşa,
Sokollu Mehmed Paşa,
Kuyucu Murat Paşa
and
Pargalı İbrahim Paşa

another important thing; when Ottomans conquer a country (because of the Islamic rules) they had to protect them like they had do protect their families (their own folk).
Can you protect a county without soldiers? Especially considering you are an Emperor ruling nearly 1/3 of the world? Where can you find soldiers enough to do it.
Therefore they got 1/5 of the young boys from the country they conquer under military service. And they treated them as their own folk NOT as SLAVES!!!
If you don't live in an imaginary world in which everything is pink. You will understand this process was necessary to keep big Emperor alive "TO MAINTAIN PEOPLE RULING IN JUSTICE"
Ottomans weren't like Byzantium or Persian try to conquer world for their prestige, they only had aim "carry Islam to other countries to rule them in justice" save their this world and other world.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Fatih

Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
My local religionmart has the best picked cherries. You wouldn't happen to be their supplier, would you Islam?

just joke? or you mean something?
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Fatih

Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.


People wrote the book. Other then that it would have to be as the Mormons. Mr. Smith had gold tablets that somehow disappeared, that would have had to weighed as much (by some estimates) 600 pounds, and he carried them hither and thither for a while. He claimed the Israelities came to this continent, but there is absolutely no evidence of them ever being here as he qualified and quantified it to be. For that to be true  there would have to be archeological evidence of which none has been found. And, look at the amount of floks that follow that religion's impossibilities. It does nothing but put clergy on their wrung of the social ladder.
No, the books came from people who "claim" to have gotten them, or enlightenment from God. In the case of the bible , it was written by Hebrew prophets. While we hold the the bible as a valid document, our understanding of it is very different then conventional thinking and interpretation.

We just not claim our holy book Quran came from Allah. We have undeniable evidences for it.

Quran gives some information which can be discovered only few years ago with high technology, like expanding of the universe, black wholes, embryonic states of fetus, the world's rotation on its axis etc.

Our Prophet Muhammad or any other man could know it 1500 year ago.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Fatih

Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 08:36:43 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM


Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.

Ok. Do you want evidence?

Why do people (human) speak? As all living things basicly to fullfil his basic instincs. To get rid of hunger, thirst, sexuality. Or he sings, write poems to beauty or power. To state thoughts.

However, have you ever heard someone who starts to speak  like
"I swear to Universe and him Who built it,
to the earth and him Who rounded it,
to the soul and him who shaped it
that
The one, cleans it (soul) will succed
the one who covers it (with sins) will fail.

(Of course in its original language it is really beautiful and accented, but it is impossible to translate it to another language protecting its artistic influence)

Are these look like human words? Human soul sourced words?

Think about the sentences you set up from whole your life, have you ever thought to speak like that?

So, what is the source of these words?

This is the meaning of Prophet, they transfer God's words to us, it can not belong to a human.

They don't like the sentences that humans made
You evidently don't have a clue what constitutes evidence. All you are doing is preaching the ignorance of our ancestors.

Nope, you just close your mind to deep thought which can led you see the truths.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Dave

Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:06:24 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 25, 2018, 07:47:48 AM


based on?

Without explanation and evidence these kind of things are just for the people whose mind are open for brainwash because of illiteracy.

Leaving aside the weakness of your response; are not all of those things attributes of people that self-describe as Muslim? You may wish to disown those who you consider not to be Muslims because of their behaviour, but (though I dislike the way it was produced) every one of those things listed can be applied to people derived from cultures that follow the Muslim faith.

We are told that Muslims are expected to learn and interpret the koran in their own way and that there are many things open to interpretation in a violent way in that book. We have been quoted, so very often, words from that book that explify violence. Yet Muslim appologists seem to be entirely in denial of this, you cannot face the very violence inherent in your own holy scriptures. They have their heads in the sand. The bible is bad enough but the koran beats it hands down.

This is 2018, some values are enduring, constant and worthy of keeping, others are not. Human nature is schizoid, part loving, part violent and always has been. Holy books tend to share that same split personality - because they are written by humans. You do not wish to look too derp into the mirror of time for fear of sering the violence behind you and around you. Leave ancient attitudes to the ancients.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Fatih

Quote from: Icarus on March 25, 2018, 03:17:39 AM
Well whoop-de doo, we have a full blown shitstorn for six pages.  What happened to the thread in the Ask HAF section about whether we should dispose of militant intruders?

Despite the consensus about doing away with trouble makers, I salute those of you who are fighting back against a seemingly intelligent individual who has his head in a place where the sun does not shine. That is the same as pissing against the tide. Let's move on to some subject with substance.

Though I do not wish to engage in a pissing contest with Islam, I do recall the Quoran based belief "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah."    Is that not from the Sword of Verses for Inspiration?  Does Shurah 9:5  not say that :Fight and slay the idolaters wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush.....?

We on this side of the world, the civilized part, the analytically permissive part, are not fond of that kind of misanthropic ignorance of reality.

It is really funny and made my sunday morning.

Have you seen Breaveheart the movie. Which is very beautiful story of William Wallace?

In a scene, William Wallece (The main character, our hero) kills a commander by cutting his throat.

Without seeing the previous scenes (that commander killed innocent woman (wallace's wife)) what would you think about Wallace

BARBARIAN. MURDERER...

Therefore You should watch the whole movie before deciding what is barbarian what is heroic.

So... not the whole movie I will just show you some scenes before sent of the ayahs you claimed as Murdering!!!

idolaters, who are mentioned in this ayah, tortured and killed Muslims for 23 years, just because they had different believes than they are. They killed, jailed, tortured Muslims Just because they are not idolaters.

They looted their properties and when Muslims tried to get back what belongs to them they prepared strong armies against them to kill all of them and wipe them out of earth.

Finally, before the Ayah above, Muslims and idolaters come to an agreement for peace. Peace continued for 10 years. But idolaters broke the agreement and slaughtered whole village of innocent people.

They broke the peace agreement and they deserved to be punished.

And the Ayah above doesn't say kill them all or exterminate immediately. It gives them 3 months to leave the country and after that, like all murderers desired, they would exterminated.

By the way. another ayah you mentioned "I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah."[/i] does not mean that

The word which is translated to English as "Fight" is in no way means Fight or War or usage of Force.

And that word is the frightened word "Cihad"

Which only means "Struggle" "Work hard willingly" in Arabic. Today if some terrorists use Cihad word to kill people (even innocent people, or each other) that is their brainless, idiotness. And the sad thing that you judge Islam by those brainless idiots which are not even close to Islam.

There are tons of words say but no time no place

However, historical events proves that Our Prophet Muhammad (P.U.H) only fight for human rights defend innocent people, lives and properties and to stop cruelty.
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Fatih

Quote from: Dave on March 25, 2018, 09:01:03 AM

We are told that Muslims are expected to learn and interpret the koran in their own way and that there are many things open to interpretation in a violent way in that book. We have been quoted, so very often, words from that book that explify violence. Yet Muslim appologists seem to be entirely in denial of this, you cannot face the very violence inherent in your own holy scriptures. They have their heads in the sand. The bible is bad enough but the koran beats it hands down.

This is 2018, some values are enduring, constant and worthy of keeping, others are not. Human nature is schizoid, part loving, part violent and always has been. Holy books tend to share that same split personality - because they are written by humans. You do not wish to look too derp into the mirror of time for fear of sering the violence behind you and around you. Leave ancient attitudes to the ancients.

Instead of assumptions and claims. Just bring the ayahs which you claim as violence and I will answer all of them one by one.

About the phrase "Muslim apologists", We are not apologists, we just explain the things in humanitarian way for you to understand.

Note: I recommend you to read the explanation above
Name changed from Islam to Fatih to simplify forum searches.

Dave

An "appologist" is: a person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial.

Islam is "controversial" to all but Islamists and deep believers, you argue its case.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
Passed Monday 10th Dec 2018 age 74

Tank

Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:06:24 AM
...

Without explanation and evidence these kind of things are just for the people whose mind are open for brainwash because of illiteracy.
I could not have described better why you are a Muslim and Islam continues to plague humanity. You have wasted 25 years studying a myth on the basis it was true. You did this because everybody you ever loved or trusted told you Islam was real and true. The problem was they had all been brainwashed for generations before you walked into a perfect storm of well rehearsed lies, superstitions and falsehoods.

Thank you for coming here and reminding us how deeply disturbing extremist views like the ones you hold are. I'd forgotten just how dangerous Islam is. You personally may not physically kill people, but you do attempt to kill people's minds by spreading the vile deceit that is is Islam.

Please do not think I am singling out Islam. Religions are based on myths and as such cloud humanity's understanding of ourselves. We are not the playthings of gods but evolved apes with just enough brains to be scared of our existence. We can not progress as long as our minds are chained to the institutionalised superstitions of our ancestors. I know some Muslims in real life and I continually remind myself that the atrocities carried out by some Muslims in the name of Islam are done by the minority of Muslims. But equally you have reminded me that Islam itself is a crime against humanity that must be eroded and removed from the human psyche.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:41:18 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 08:36:43 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 24, 2018, 07:40:19 PM


Now you believe in a myth. There is no evidence for gods and because of the 'unfalsifiable' nature of the god claim there never can be. To believe in something for which there is no evidence and never can be is delusional.

Ok. Do you want evidence?

Why do people (human) speak? As all living things basicly to fullfil his basic instincs. To get rid of hunger, thirst, sexuality. Or he sings, write poems to beauty or power. To state thoughts.

However, have you ever heard someone who starts to speak  like
"I swear to Universe and him Who built it,
to the earth and him Who rounded it,
to the soul and him who shaped it
that
The one, cleans it (soul) will succed
the one who covers it (with sins) will fail.

(Of course in its original language it is really beautiful and accented, but it is impossible to translate it to another language protecting its artistic influence)

Are these look like human words? Human soul sourced words?

Think about the sentences you set up from whole your life, have you ever thought to speak like that?

So, what is the source of these words?

This is the meaning of Prophet, they transfer God's words to us, it can not belong to a human.

They don't like the sentences that humans made
You evidently don't have a clue what constitutes evidence. All you are doing is preaching the ignorance of our ancestors.

Nope, you just close your mind to deep thought which can led you see the truths.
You would say that as you have no truth to offer. Only the lies and deceits of the ancient beliefs that ensnared your ancestors.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:26:34 AM
..
Ottomans weren't like Byzantium or Persian try to conquer world for their prestige, they only had aim "carry Islam to other countries to rule them in justice" save their this world and other world.
Thus you justify war in the name of the religion of peace. Thank you for confirming just how dangerous Islam is. I had thought only the likes of ISIS were dangerous to the rest of the world. I was wrong.
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:28:55 AM
Quote from: No one on March 24, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
My local religionmart has the best picked cherries. You wouldn't happen to be their supplier, would you Islam?

just joke? or you mean something?
You don't even see the point made do you? smh
If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.

Tank

Quote from: Islam on March 25, 2018, 08:38:13 AM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: Islam on March 24, 2018, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: Old Seer on March 24, 2018, 07:32:35 PM
So the one who wrote your book is infallible. Who was this infallible person?

I thought we agree that all holy books come from Allah (God).
The Creator of the universe,
Architect of this Realm,
Owner of Everything.


People wrote the book. Other then that it would have to be as the Mormons. Mr. Smith had gold tablets that somehow disappeared, that would have had to weighed as much (by some estimates) 600 pounds, and he carried them hither and thither for a while. He claimed the Israelities came to this continent, but there is absolutely no evidence of them ever being here as he qualified and quantified it to be. For that to be true  there would have to be archeological evidence of which none has been found. And, look at the amount of floks that follow that religion's impossibilities. It does nothing but put clergy on their wrung of the social ladder.
No, the books came from people who "claim" to have gotten them, or enlightenment from God. In the case of the bible , it was written by Hebrew prophets. While we hold the the bible as a valid document, our understanding of it is very different then conventional thinking and interpretation.

We just not claim our holy book Quran came from Allah. We have undeniable evidences for it.

Quran gives some information which can be discovered only few years ago with high technology, like expanding of the universe, black wholes, embryonic states of fetus, the world's rotation on its axis etc.

Our Prophet Muhammad or any other man could know it 1500 year ago.
OFFS!!! Now we have the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

Fatih, your arguments are truly pathetic. A classic example is the attitude of Islam to the nature of the solar system. Prior to Copernicus and Galileo Islamic Scholars (there's an oxymoron if there ever was one) universally interpreted the solar system as geocentric. When the evidence and understanding became overwhelming outside Islam this was changed to heliocentric. This again shows that the Quran is a pile of rubbish. The same verses were interpreted by those in charge to suit the knowledge of the time. Exactly what the Catholic church did when faced with the Big Band and evolution. Apologetics at its very best.

Geocentrism and the Qur'an


If religions were TV channels atheism is turning the TV off.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." ― Richard P. Feynman
'It is said that your life flashes before your eyes just before you die. That is true, it's called Life.' - Terry Pratchett
Remember, your inability to grasp science is not a valid argument against it.